What is the most versatile African hunting cartridge that is above .40 caliber? I'm talking about good long range capabilities out to about 250 yards or so along with really good stopping effect at close range. From what I've read on this forum it appears to be a toss up between the .416's and .404's. Am I correct in assuming this or do the .45 caliber cartridges have anything going for them as far as versatility goes?

Thanks,

jfm

.450 Dakota/Rigby or .460 Wby with a 450gr TSX @ 2,500 fps is pretty versatile if you can handle it.

I believe that would be the .416 Rem. Mag.

Or the 416 Rigby.

quote:

450 Dakota/Rigby or .460 Wby with a 450gr TSX @ 2,500 fps is pretty versatile if you can handle it.

Absolutely correct.

300 grain whatever @ 3100

450 grain whatever @ 2700

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I believe that would be the .416 Rem. Mag.

What he said.

...FWIW, I shot, and killed, a Cape buffalo at a marked 203yds with a .416 Taylor. 400gr Swift, at 2380fps.

Aiming point was approx 6" above the top of the shoulder. At the shot, the buffalo dropped in his tracks, not to move again. The bullet destroyed the "plumbing" in the to top of the heart. The bullet was recovered in the skin on the off shoulder, and was a picture-perfect mushroom.

Perhaps for shots beyond 200yds, a lighter bullet/higher velocity may be required?

I've been shooting a .416 Taylor since 1988. 400gr bullets @ 2380fps have proven (for me) to be adequate on P/G, and D/G. I've never loaded any light bullets, so I certainly can't comment on their effectiveness.

Try any of the .416's, you'll be pleasantly surprized at how flat they shoot.

.458 Lott means never having to say your sorry.

There are no flies on the 450 Rigby either. It's not as popular as the Lott but just as good.

I may take some slack for this but for my tastes under 250 yards I like the .458WM. With 300 gr bullets an knowing your rifle it can readily handle all but the largest game. With 450 gr TSX, solids or Northforks it can handle the largest of game. Pushing a quality 450 gr .458 bullet over 2000 fPS is IMHO all that is needed to kill any of the truly big beasts.

A 50 BMG would have to rate at the top. It has accounted for more Africans and their light armored vehicles along with a good many aircraft.

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
I'm talking about good long range capabilities out to about 250 yards or so along with really good stopping effect at close range.

It's tough to have your cake and eat it too. You will give up something on one end or the other based on your choice.

Pose theis question to a physics professor and give him balistic and energy charts and he will tell you, based on physics, that the 460 Wby. is the perfect choice.

But let's inject some practicality.

450 Rigby or 450 Dakota will give you this with a bit less recoil. Still more than some care to shoot.

I believe I would rather shoot a 416 Rem/Rigby and have the 300 yard ability with a 400 grain bullet and have a decent "stopper" at the same time.

That .416 is a tough round to beat. That said, I can't disagree with any of the replies so far.

Put me down for the 416 Remington Magnum. If you can adapt to the recoil it is an outstanding "all-arounder". I love mine.

TJB

.416 Remington Magnum

A plain old .458 Winchester, using 400 grain bullets, will stay within 3" of a .416 Remington with the same weight bullets out to 300 yards.

The .458 Winchester will also shoot 500 grain stoppers.

The .416 won't.

Versatility score: .458 = 2 .416 = 1

.458 equals an apparent endless selection of
bullets: weights, types, manufacturers, etc.

.416 shoots flatter but not nearly as many options.

A wildcat in .41 diameter allows the use of PISTOL
bullets at less than 250 grains and rifle bullets at
weights typically as high as 400 grains. [but who
knows what you can custom order from HAWK or
the excellent by all accounts that I've read through,
www.gscustom.co.za ???]

On my first safari I took a 458 lott and 375 h&h for buff and plainsgame. On my next trip for leopard, sable and PG, I'm taking only a 416 rem and 12 gauge.

If it comes down to being between a cartridge that gives you a better chance of surving a elephant charge and one that gives you 3" less drop on a zebra at 300 yards, which would you chose?

465H&H

x2

To answer the question the 416 Remington is the first thing that pops into my head but I think a real case could be made for a 458 win Mag with 450gr mono metal expanding and solid bullets. A 450gr 458 bullet at 2300FPS gives up nothing to the 416 Remington and will reach out to any reasonable range you'll encounter except perhaps in the Kalahari.

Mark

458

If you hand load you might consider a .416 loaded with a 350 grain expander like TSX along with a 350 grain solid (Barnes banded solid). The idea would be to have an expander and a solid which will be tough, fast, flat-shooting and interchangeable so that you can drill plains game of any size and any reasonable distance. At the same time you are ready for dangerous game and maximum penetration from any angle.

It may be overkill for me to bring along my 400 grain loads too, but I do it just for contingencies. You never know when the PH will tell you that there is an elephant or other dangerous game on the rampage and that you are being invited to go after it. That happened on one occasion. I like to have all the stopping power I can when faced with an animal with attitude.

Another vote for the 416 Remington- Cheap brass, easier to handload than the 458 win, accurate as hell, and hits like a sledge hammer.

What makes it easier to reload than the 458wm? The 458wm is so easy to reload for that I must be forgetting what makes it more difficult than the 416, or any other cartridge.

I mean length is no dufficult issue and head spacing is simple as hell. What makes it any trouble at all?

JPK

check mark for the 458 win. don't own one but have borrowed one twice over there and they can do damage to anything 4 legged or 4 wheels.

I think a lot of you are confusing flat shooting with hard hitting with versatility. The .458 Lott is much more versatile than the .416 Rem. You can shoot everything from light 300 grain loads in .458 WM all the way to full-power Lott loads. As someone else stated the Lott will shoot nearly as flat at the ranges that we're talking about. Should you lose your ammo you'll probably be able to find some usable .458 WM loads that will get the job done. The .416 Rem isn't going to be found as easily and sure doesn't offer the ability to use such a wide range of ammo choices. That's versatility.

My vote is for the .416 Rigby. Shoots flat enough for use in a pinch and has ample power when the bullet arrives. At close range its effects are legendary ( being a classic ctg. means a lot to me ).

Another vote for 416 Rigby.

I have never shot at african animals at 250 yds so my thoughts may be worthless; however, have killed 2 elephants with my 458wm and have a lot of confidence in it. I would have no compunctions with engaging animals up to 150 yds with that round (I am not comfortable shooting much beyond that range). another round I want to try is the 425 Westley Richards. Don't know if the trajectory will allow much more range or not, but, hope to find out next year

I chose the 416 Rem over a 416 Rigby because I don't like the shoulder on the Rigby for reloading. Also the Rigby was a Ruger rsm and was a bit heavier than the 416 Rem which is a M70 African, my favorite rifle. Theoretically the 458s are nice but I don't care for the recoil. If recoil was no consideration at all I'd choose the Lott.

I couldn't make up my mind between the .416 Rem and Rigby, so I got both. I took my Buff with the Rem simply because it was a Model 70 Win and the Rigby a Number 1 Ruger, obviously because of the quick follow shots, if needed. They both throw the 400 grain bullets 2400 fps with ease. I actually used the 370 grain North Fork soft and solid. The cool thing about the Rigby is it will through the same bullets 300 fps faster if you want to step up to that speed. Think about a 370 grain Northfork (I managed to have several boxs when Mike shut down, you could use Barnes) soft at 2700 and you get my point when considering a flat shooting big bullet. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
A plain old .458 Winchester, using 400 grain bullets, will stay within 3" of a .416 Remington with the same weight bullets out to 300 yards.

The .458 Winchester will also shoot 500 grain stoppers.

The .416 won't.

Versatility score: .458 = 2 .416 = 1

Ditto's Indy,
jfm, you mentioned a good stopping effect in your post, with that in mind stoppers start at 45 caliber and 500 grain projectiles so that rules out any 416's. For a client wanting the best all around caliber in Africa the 416 fits the bill the best for your requests minus the stopping capability requirement. As far as recoil goes, 458wm recoil is on par with the 416Rigby. You also mentioned having good long range capabilities (250 yds), unless you are hunting SA, Namibia, or the Kafue flats or some other areas for plainsgame 250 yds is a very long shot in most African hunting scenarios. You will shoot the majority of your game animals under 200 yds, more like 150yds and less. Back to reality, you can not have the best of both worlds, a stopping caliber and a good 250yd range rifle wrapped up in one caliber is an oxymoron, one rifle safari with PG and DG on the list and the 40 caliber minimum you want = 416.

Dirk

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
A plain old .458 Winchester, using 400 grain bullets, will stay within 3" of a .416 Remington with the same weight bullets out to 300 yards.

The .458 Winchester will also shoot 500 grain stoppers.

The .416 won't.

Versatility score: .458 = 2 .416 = 1

Ditto's Indy,
jfm, you mentioned a good stopping effect in your post, with that in mind stoppers start at 45 caliber and 500 grain projectiles so that rules out any 416's. For a client wanting the best all around caliber in Africa the 416 fits the bill the best for your requests minus the stopping capability requirement. As far as recoil goes, 458wm recoil is on par with the 416Rigby. You also mentioned having good long range capabilities (250 yds), unless you are hunting SA, Namibia, or the Kafue flats or some other areas for plainsgame 250 yds is a very long shot in most African hunting scenarios. You will shoot the majority of your game animals under 200 yds, more like 150yds and less. Back to reality, you can not have the best of both worlds, a stopping caliber and a good 250yd range rifle wrapped up in one caliber is an oxymoron, one rifle safari with PG and DG on the list and the 40 caliber minimum you want = 416.

Dirk

The Lott will do all this and more.

.404 Jeffrey a real classic, but I'm biased towards the classisc British cartridges.

Currently my heaviest rifle is a .375 H&H Model 70, which I absolutely love. For an upcoming buff hunt, though, I'm going to try to find a .458wm in LH. I've shot my friend's Sauer and love it. I find the recoil to be no greater than the .375 pumped up to max loads and it's versatility and ammo accessability makes it a good choice. Good elephant insurance on a buff hunt, if you need it.

I'll vote for the 416 Rigby. It is an extremely effective low pressure cartridge. It is a tie with the 416 Remington until you step on the gas for the Rigby. It can be loaded up quite a bit and will then produce some serious energy. So few Rigbys are loaded to this potential most don't realize its capabilities. It can be turned into a real "hammer" if you desire one.

416 Remington----"gets r' done" --- and quite nicely I might add --

I have used most of them and I settled on the .416 Rem and 404 Jefferys and I have a .416 Ruger that clones the 416 Rem..They suit me for the purpose you describe and I think they are more than suitable on elephant...

The big 450s are also very suitable up to 300 yards..I have no doubt that I could kill a buffalo with a .470 at 300 yards for that matter even with iron sights, but I would not take the shot unless he was wounded, A buff is a big target..I have used my .470 and my 450-400 at 200 yards many times on zebra or Hartebeest..I know a lot of folks that use these big bores at up to 300 yards. We used to shoot buffalo targets at 300 yards in practice and its easier than one might think..I know several big bore folks on this forum that can do that with regularity..

However I just noticed that you said over 40 caliber..In which case I would opt for the 458 Lott as its the most practical of the lot and its definately a killer of anything, and on both ends..

.505 Gibbs

when deciding which caliber to take on a long, expensive trip to foreign lands, i would keep in mind the availability of replacement ammo in case something were to happen to yours. during my hunting days, which are now over,i have had to buy replacement ammo on three seperate occasions.