I thought i had heard it all, well almost, until i recently read a hunt report that describes in detail how a Leopard (unwounded)was flushed from a cave using firecrackers, yes the kind that go bang, so that a hunter could shoot it as a trophy! I agree that ethics may vary depending on culture etc ,but to me this is a new all time low. How are we supposed to keep the anti's at bay when stories like this get out into the general public? What is next and where does a line get drawn?

Ya...I paid my money,and I won't go home empty handed.

I guess that's where this has headed.

What PH carries fire crackers,unless they done it before,and know they will need them.

Sorry,might as well thrown in a hand grenade and called it hunting...JMO

NOT HUNTING, "HARVESTING".

Without addressing the ethics side of things, something tells me that shooting a leapard as he bolts out of a cave is not quite as easy as some of you are making it sound. Reminds me of some of the Jim Corbett books when he was surprised by Tigers or Leopards hiding in caves.

On the ethics side, how would throwing rocks into the cave stand up vs using firecrackers? Are they both unacceptable? Totally different?

Personally i dont care how difficult a shot it was, hunting is not about proving yourself being able to make difficult shots.

Firecrackers are unnaceptable and you cannot compare the exploits of Jim Corbett to this fiasco

+1 on Scott450...

Not dumping on the dog aspect,nor the difficulty if a close fast shot...

But the explosives aspect is past the point of ethics for a sport hunter,this wasn't the Leopard of Rudraprayag.

I would assume you would also disapprove of hunting with dogs. Or trying to build a fire and smoke the Leopard out. How about treeing him with dogs and shooting him out of the tree. I suppose yelling would also be a denied procedure to talk him out of the cave. Or shooting him on a bait hung to present the best target from a blind disguised to appear as part of the landscape and heaven forbid he should be shot at night over lights on a bait from a blind. Get real please. Maybe even go HUNT a leopard. Exactly what the hell IS hunting about,please explain.

Scott,
I'm interested in what options you would recommend when a wounded leopard runs into a cave. I'm sure I'm missing some but here is what comes to mind:

Wait it out hoping he comes out before dark and then escaping, still wounded.

Crawl in after him prepared to do battle.

Try to drive him out using various techniques.

"There are worse memorials to a life well-lived than a pair of elephant tusks." Robert Ruark

SBT the firecrackers were used BEFORE the Leopard was wounded....Once an animal is wounded the rules change, we are not talking about wounded animals here

Zimbabwe i have been fortunate to be intimately involved in many, many leopard hunts and i have hunted cats using dogs and i have no issue with it when done properly

What do you think Harry Selby would have to say about this?

I mean really the only way to HUNT a Leopard is to find a track (now you must have walked from camp) and then follow the track until you catch up with the Leopard and then in daylight you can shoot him. NO DOGS, NO BAITS, NO LIGHTS, NO VEHICLE!

I re-read the report. You are correct, it was an unwounded leopard the first go-round.

This whole "ethics" shit is getting to be a fret on the hunting boards.. What you consider within your limits of being ethical may not be to another.. A firecracker?? Who gives a DAMN about a firecracker!!

Please Scott, is pot shooting that unsuspecting tom out of a tree while he snacks on a free dinner that YOU provided, whether it be day OR night, conidered "ethical" to you? I for one, would MUCH rather chase them over ground with dogs and take him at bay, in a cave (with a firecracker) or in a tree, or on the ground, or in a full on charge with the pack hot on his tail in all instances.. But am I going to get onto a public forum and blast someone else for sniping his tom from a blind at 30 yards just because that isnt the way I want to do it (and still may, depending on where I go)? Hell no!

Maybe I'll take you with me on my leopard hunt in 2011. Then when the tom goes into the cave and you decide that the use of a blackcat firecracker thrown down the hole to flush him out is the Godless ,heathen, "unethical" way of doing it, I'll just kindly ask you to put your mouth over the hole and talk till he comes out... I'm sure the "shit" talking you'll do will be ripe enough to flush that old tom out and I can then pot my big leopard, with ethics firmly still intact..

If it's illegal fine, but just because you don't approve of doing something doesn't give you the right to tell another not to do it.

A firecracker.... Some folks bitch about the way the sun comes up.


And since you asked, I'm pretty damned sure Mr. Selby would have done the same as that PH (Karl), had he had a leopard go into a cave and he happened to have a firecracker or 2 handy..

I personally have crawled around a koppe looking for a caved leopard and it was intense. There were several holes that I would have paid for a blackcat by the piece to have one to throw into the darkness rather than crawling around straining my eyes. I'm just trying to picture the m80 going off and the spotted death launching out of the darkness. I finally would have gotten to use that extra pair of skivvies I carry in my day pack.

Shooting leoPARDd coming out of a cave after he was scared by firecrackers is infinitely more dangerous than shooting one on bait.

As has already been mentioned, my ethics might be different than yours. I won't question other people's ethics, and I sure don't anyone questioning mine.

When I was a kid, one of my uncles ran coons with dogs. I went with him quite a bit and had the opportunity to see a number of animals taken in front of his hounds.

The procedure was for the dogs to put the coon up a tree, whereupon the animal would be located with a spotlight and shot with a 22 rifle. Headshots were prefered.

Sometimes, however, the coon being pursued would find a hollow tree as his tree of choice, and the game changed. My uncle would tie the dogs and build a smoky fire in the bottom of the tree, and the smoke would dislodge the coon from his perch, and once again the 22 was brought in to play.

One night we ran a coon into a tree that was NOT hollow, and we couldn't locate him. After a bit of looking, we discovered a knot on a limb that was hollow. The limb was some 30 or 35 feet off the ground, and there was no way to get a smudge fire to put smoke into the hole to dislodge the coon. At that point, my uncle--as they are fond of saying in Africa--"Made a plan." He and I stayed at the tree, and he sent my cousin about a half mile back home for a crosscut saw. We sawed the tree down, and got the coon.

Same thing with the leopard. He goes into a hole, he's gotta come out. Leave this leopard alone, and he learns, and keeps learning human behavior until at some point he loses fear of humans and becomes an eater of human flesh. Who is to say that is not the same leopard that had used that cave successfully in the past. What it boils down to is that particular leopard needed to die.

One thing for sure and certain, there is no evidence whatever of maneating coons in northwest Louisiana where I grew up.

My hat's off to eyedoc for a good shot .

quote:

Shooting leoprad coming out of a cave after he was scared by firecrackers is infinitely more dangerous than shooting one on bait.

I believe you're right, Saeed. But Eyedoc says that he and the dog handler were perched 75 yards away waiting to snipe the cat when it bolted:

"Glenn and I are positioned about 75 yards across the valley on a hillside overlooking the mouth of the cave. If he comes out and breaks either left or right I should be able to get a pretty good shot at him as he tries to make an escape."

"Karl prepared to drop a cracker in the hole and Glenn and I readied ourselves from our position opposite the cave entrance."

No danger in that.

Some one above said it wasn't hunting. How did they know the Leopard was in the cave if they hadn't hunted the cat?

David "No danger in that". What about Karl?

DOJ - What about him?

Well if he is throwing the fire cracker it means he was near the cave opening, right? You know what they say SHIT happens.

Eyedoc's narrative says that Karl was above and behind the leopard, not near the entrance to the cave. Karl was dropping the crackers through a small opening directly above the cat.

I know very well shit happens and I have first hand experience dealing with a wounded, pissed off leopard at spitting distance. Not something I care to experience again.

As a hunter in a new hunting environment, hunting with a PH that has a great deal of experience, I would expect my Ph to hunt in a manner that is considered ethical as well as productive. If I had been in the situation and Karl was dropping fire crackers into a cave opening, I would of done exactly as eyedoc did, be as prepared to make a shot as possible, whether the vantage spot was 7 or 70 yards. They tracked him and chased him with dogs, and put bait out to help locate one, what the heck? Is that so different than sitting in a blind at 50 to 75 yards with a zebra or other animal hind quarter ready to ambush him?

We put out deer feeders in Texas, and in most of the US, plant food plots, whether for deer or cattle,,, it is still technically baiting as far as I am concerned. I couldn't give a dang about what the "anti's" like,,, they wouldn't approve of any method of "hunting"

If someone doesn't approve of how or where I hunt,,, they don't have to participate but don't try and impose your beliefs on me. Eyedoc reported a factual account of his hunt and he enjoyed the hunt, Great job eyedoc,,,good report..

So he used firecrackers...

How else were they supposed to get the Leopard out of the cave?

At least at that point the leopard knew the score, and would theoretically have a running start. I don't see it any less sporting than shooting him unawares, over bait, hidden in a blind.


.

Two days before we chased this cat we had another cat in a cave as well. This is documented in my narrative. This cave was in a rock wall and the only perch available was ten yards in front of the small entrance. I stood gaurding that entrance for over four hours ready to take on that cat when he came charging out of that hole. Don't tell me our choice in position on the second cat had to do with balls or lack there-of. The layout was diffrent and required a different approach.

The second cat was in a narrow valley with openings to both sides. The only way to watch both sides was from the opposite side. We expected the cat to exit the hole , dash right or left , and hopefully the dogs would catch it and bring it to bay if I could not stop it right away.

The cat did neither. It ran to the mouth of the cave and peeked out. I had the front end to work with and I hit him hard on the shoulder. The rest was basically the recovery.

Like Sharpsguy, I have seen these techniques used on coons in the past. When the cat went in the cave and the dog handler produced his firecrackers I was not surprised at all. I been around enough dog hunts to know that this was a possibility and I did not have a problem with it.

Would I have rather had the cat in an opening, bayed by the dogs and snarling at me when I took him. Yes.

These dog hunts typically end in one of three ways ,when they end successfully.
1) leopard treed
2) leopard in a cave
3) leopard bayed and fighting on the ground

You can hope and dream but you really don't get a choice. Once a decision is made to put dogs on the track you adapt and try to be prepared for whatever circumstances you find yourself in.

I really enjoyed my hunt. I also really enjoyed chasing the two cats we did not get. I enjoyed the elephant hunting in spite of not shooting one of them either.

I took the time and made the effort to type this narrative so that all of my friends and fellow AR memebers could share in this experience with me. Thanks to all of you who have shown you are my friends by sharing in my joy. To those who cannot get past the fact that we did not do it your way, I am sorry your myopic views prevent you from sharing in this same joy. For you see, I did this not to you, but for you.Perhaps next time I won't bother.

This reminds me of the live bait fisherman , who is despised by the bait caster , who is despised by the fly fisherman. Each have the same goal, to catch the fish. Why do they fight so heatedly over how the lure is presented? Elitism!

Best wishes to all of you. Good hunting and keep the wind in your face....mike

Discussing so caled "ethics" is totally pointless.

It is no better than trying to discuss anything to do with hunting with those who are opposed to it.

They keep telling us it is "unethical" to hunt using "high powered rifles with telescopic sights".

While at the same time they are very happy buying meat off the shelf because someone else did the killing on their behalf.

Does anyone really believe our ancestors hunted the way they did because they had a choice?

They used every available means to kill their animals.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Does anyone really believe our ancestors hunted the way they did because they had a choice?

They used every available means to kill their animals.

+1

Scott450,

Put yourself in these shoes you fly over to the States to hunt a cougar/mountain lion you spend $8000.00 on the trip the hounds chase the cat into a cave on the last hunting day and you just cannot get the cat out unless you use smoke or firecrackers.

Do you go home work your arse off again and come back next year to try again ? Or do you try any means possible to get the cat out of there you have hunted the cat it's trapped ?

Scott have you seen what the Khomas Hochlands looks like ? With caves everywhere the cat as got a fair chance and not all cats are trapped with hounds even if the hounds are excellent. I think if you have a way to get that cat out of the cave and you have done the work to get it trapped its fair game especially if you consider the time we live in and the idea of time and money.

Eyedoc, congrats on your cat in February I filmed a leopard hunt for Karl as well and the cat also went into a cave and took us 4 hours to get out. (No firecrackers were used on this hunt) We were at one stage 15 yards form the entrance but moved back to 40 looking into the dark hole. I know what it feels like. (Especially armed only with a video camera )

quote:

Do you go home work your arse off again and come back next year to try again ? Or do you try any means possible to get the cat out of there you have hunted the cat it's trapped ?

No you just walk into the calve with a flashlight and gun and shoot the damn thing because it's a mountain lion not a leopard!!! Sorry!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
No you just walk into the calve with a flashlight and gun and shoot the damn thing because it's a mountain lion not a leopard!!! Sorry!!
Brett

Eyedoc,

Congrats on your hunt, and on producing one of the best possible comebacks to the BS spewing in your direction. If this doesn't shut them up, nothing will.

Of course, nothing will...

John

quote:

I took the time and made the effort to type this narrative so that all of my friends and fellow AR memebers could share in this experience with me. Thanks to all of you who have shown you are my friends by sharing in my joy. To those who cannot get past the fact that we did not do it your way, I am sorry your myopic views prevent you from sharing in this same joy. For you see, I did this not to you, but for you.Perhaps next time I won't bother.

The solution to this is when any member of AR is hunting DG remember to carry your laptop with conection to a Sat phone. When the sitiuation occures for you to make a ehtical decision, you boot up and post the circumstance you have found yourself in and do a survey of members. Once you have the survey results you will then know how to handle the sitiuation. Remember you may be dead when the survey is completed.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
The solution to this is when any member of AR is hunting DG remember to carry your laptop with conection to a Sat phone. When the sitiuation occures for you to make a ehtical decision, you boot up and post the circumstance you have found yourself in and do a survey of members. Once you have the survey results you will then know how to handle the sitiuation. Remember you may be dead when the survey is completed.

This must be one of the best ones of the year

Sometimes I wonder what will happen to me here if during my life time dream in Africa I shot a big buff but AR members find some hair between the bosses, or if I shot it at 70 yards instead of at 10, or if I shot an ele in the lungs instead of braining it, or if I shot a 5 year old mainless lion instead a seven year old one with a MGM mane, or a leopard using a spotlight, or a LDE over a salt lick instead of tracking it down, etc, etc...

It seems that beacause of ethics soon we will have to stop hunting armadillos here at home using our traditional method...we fill their holes with water carried with our rubber boots from the nearer stream

L

quote:

As has already been mentioned, my ethics might be different than yours. I won't question other people's ethics, and I sure don't anyone questioning mine.

This statement, Saeed's other post and Lorenzo's post sum it all up really well.

Biggest reason why I maintain hunting is going to be gone in 40 years or less, To God Damn Many Folks Worried About Other People's Ethics.

Whether anyone agrees with it or not, If Something Is LEGAL, That Means Someone Determined It Was Ethical.

We may not agreee with that, but we have the choice of not doing it that way if we do not want too.

It is these continueing and increasing Bull Shit arguements over "Ethics" that give the anti crowd much of their ammunition against us.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
The solution to this is when any member of AR is hunting DG remember to carry your laptop with conection to a Sat phone. When the sitiuation occures for you to make a ehtical decision, you boot up and post the circumstance you have found yourself in and do a survey of members. Once you have the survey results you will then know how to handle the sitiuation. Remember you may be dead when the survey is completed.

Not so far-fetched DOJ...


Here is a excerpt of Jack Brittingham's(recent owner of Tawico) lion hunt with TGT:

"What does all this have to do with lion hunting in Tanzania, you ask? The answer is that yesterday we discovered a buffalo kill made by a pride of lions only two kilometers from our base camp. In this pride was the finest lion I have ever seen. We spent yesterday afternoon with the pride trying to get a look at the cubs, lionesses, and the male, to confirm the dynamics of this particular pride before making a final decision on whether or not we should try for this male. As darkness fell, we were undecided, so we returned this morning after a night full of lion calls, and again spent several hours trying to determine if the cubs were of sufficient age to survive without there patriarch (I hear him roaring as I write this at 11:39 PM).

Without a clear answer to our dilemma, a call was placed via Sat-phone to the main office of Tanzania Game Trackers in Arusha. Further discussions were held, and a great volume of lion research data was consulted. Additional calls and e-mails were made until this decision reached the very top of the food chain in the organization and the executive order was given. The Verdict: This lion had been with the pride for at least three years, he has been the dominant breeder during that time and the subadult cubs could survive without his further protection. The lion is at a point where natural succession is imminent and to wait longer would very likely guarantee that he disappear from his current role as pride leader, only to be taken apart in a solo battle by his mortal enemy, the hyena.

It is difficult for me to express the emotional rollercoaster this process has taken me on. My fundamental belief that wildlife management is more important than trophy harvest has been fighting with my primordial instinct which says to hunt this magnificent creature no matter what. Finally, after employing all that modern technology and good science has to offer, the hunt is on."

Full article can be read here:http://www.jackbrittingham.com/articles/article,20030702,01,02.php

Talk about a canned hunt!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

As has already been mentioned, my ethics might be different than yours. I won't question other people's ethics, and I sure don't anyone questioning mine.

This statement, Saeed's other post and Lorenzo's post sum it all up really well.

Biggest reason why I maintain hunting is going to be gone in 40 years or less, To God Damn Many Folks Worried About Other People's Ethics.

Whether anyone agrees with it or not, If Something Is LEGAL, That Means Someone Determined It Was Ethical.

We may not agreee with that, but we have the choice of not doing it that way if we do not want too.

It is these continueing and increasing Bull Shit arguements over "Ethics" that give the anti crowd much of their ammunition against us.

You really have to laugh after reading this. ALL of our laws are based on societie’s ethics and morals. Things are many times illegal because of ethics. We debate what is legal but we can't debate what is ethical? That's just nonsense.

Ethics (also known as moral philosophy) is a branch of philosophy which seeks to address questions about morality.
Laws and ethics are not set in stone and therefore never “hands-off” topics.

You could easily argue that people had greater ethics and morals 50 years ago and hunting was far more popular then. One could argue that people have LESS ethics now then they did then so it is the LACK of ethics that seems to be at issue.

It simply is not an option to try to ignore ethics. It was perfectly legal and ethical in 1900 to shoot whatever animal you wanted in the US whenever you wanted. Our wildlife was not saved UNTIL this was reevaluated and JUDGED. If everyone just said don't judge my ethics and I won't judge yours we would have no wildlife at all. Since it was unethical it became illegal. When populations rebounded it became ethical and then legal.

Like it or not the entire world revolves around ethics which constantly need to be reevaluated and judged.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott450:
How are we supposed to keep the anti's at bay when stories like this get out into the general public? What is next and where does a line get drawn?

As has been mentioned above ethics do vary and centerfire rifles, atv's, bait, range finders, camoflage, and many other hunting trinkets are considered bad ethics by some.

I think it is too obvious to say that we will not "keep the anti's at bay,". All of them, here in Dillingham and everywhere else they occur are displeased by the concept of hunting in any form and will not be satisfied until the last longbow, spot and stalk, subsistence hunter is dis armed and un shod. Baiting and firecrackers isn't the issue, killing an animal deemed pretty is.

quote:

Originally posted by Steiner:

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
The solution to this is when any member of AR is hunting DG remember to carry your laptop with conection to a Sat phone. When the sitiuation occures for you to make a ehtical decision, you boot up and post the circumstance you have found yourself in and do a survey of members. Once you have the survey results you will then know how to handle the sitiuation. Remember you may be dead when the survey is completed.

Not so far-fetched DOJ...


Here is a excerpt of Jack Brittingham's(recent owner of Tawico) lion hunt with TGT:

"What does all this have to do with lion hunting in Tanzania, you ask? The answer is that yesterday we discovered a buffalo kill made by a pride of lions only two kilometers from our base camp. In this pride was the finest lion I have ever seen. We spent yesterday afternoon with the pride trying to get a look at the cubs, lionesses, and the male, to confirm the dynamics of this particular pride before making a final decision on whether or not we should try for this male. As darkness fell, we were undecided, so we returned this morning after a night full of lion calls, and again spent several hours trying to determine if the cubs were of sufficient age to survive without there patriarch (I hear him roaring as I write this at 11:39 PM).

Without a clear answer to our dilemma, a call was placed via Sat-phone to the main office of Tanzania Game Trackers in Arusha. Further discussions were held, and a great volume of lion research data was consulted. Additional calls and e-mails were made until this decision reached the very top of the food chain in the organization and the executive order was given. The Verdict: This lion had been with the pride for at least three years, he has been the dominant breeder during that time and the subadult cubs could survive without his further protection. The lion is at a point where natural succession is imminent and to wait longer would very likely guarantee that he disappear from his current role as pride leader, only to be taken apart in a solo battle by his mortal enemy, the hyena.

It is difficult for me to express the emotional rollercoaster this process has taken me on. My fundamental belief that wildlife management is more important than trophy harvest has been fighting with my primordial instinct which says to hunt this magnificent creature no matter what. Finally, after employing all that modern technology and good science has to offer, the hunt is on."

Full article can be read here:http://www.jackbrittingham.com/articles/article,20030702,01,02.php

I would much rather have hunted that leopard with a firecracker to spook it out of the cave than that lion with all the study and research and phone calls or whatever .. ...

First of all I want to congratulate eyedoc.

Next I personally believe two individuals who condemned the way the eyedoc got his leopard to look at themselves.

I noticed Scott450 is from Africa. I wonder how many times, you waited at a waterhole to take animal, or hunted at night. Or drove around in a vehicle until you found the animal you were looking for then got out of the vehicle and shot it after a short stalk. Maybe you have even shot the animal from the vehicle. I do not know. The list goes on. Are these ethical ways to hunt. It is not for me to say. But, do not condemn others.

David W you are from Texas. I do not know if you have done it but it is common practice to put out feeders to hunt Deer and exotics in Texas. There are many who hunt behind game fences in Texas, some are very small and amount to a few hundred acres. I am sure their are many hunting practices that you may or may not have done, I or others might consider unethical. I would not condemn you so, I think it is important you not condemn eyedoc.

Before anybody jumps in what about canned lion hunting. I cannot agree with that and never will. But, the reason it is there because somebody found a niche for it and found people willing to do it.

So before people start condemning others, they need to look at themselves. Nobody is perfect, some time in everybody's hunting or fishing life they have violated a game law or may have done something unethical when it comes to hunting or fishing.

Let us look on the positive side. Eyedoc had a wonderful hunt and he did get his leopard.

Just be careful what you say because the anti hunters are just waiting in the wings.

VERY WELL PUT BROOKS. AFTER READING THE MANY AND VARIED POSTS ON THIS SUBJECT, I RECANT MY EARLIER STATMENT.

AS THE HUNT DEVELOPS SOMETIMES THE PLANS CHANGE VERY QUICKLY. AS LONG AS YOUR ACTIONS ARE WITHIN THE LAW AND YOUR OWN ETHICS, KNOCK YOUR SELF OUT.

I AM GLAD EYEDOC HAD A GOOD HUNT.

GeoffM24, I just flat don't agree with you.

There is the concept with everyone of SITUATIONAL ETHICS.

You bring up some interesting points, but seem only able to address my post, look at alkl the other folks that seem to believe that there is a difference between each individuals ethics in any given hunting situation, and evidently as long as what is taking place is LEGAL, don't seem to have a real big problem with it.

Now if you can stick to the topic, why do you feel that the ethics you are trying to peddle are better than mine or anyone else's?

Can you answer that?

It is legal and by most folks in Texas ethics to shoot deer from under a feeder, I have done it many times myself and hope to be able to do so many many times in the future.

Do I have a problem if you don't think it is ethical, Hell No.

In fact I don't really classify it as hunting, but it is a way to kill a deer and reduce the possibility of a bad shot and losing said deer, because the shooter is basically shooting from a bench rest.

As I have said before, "Ethics" arguements are pure , simply because some folks feel like they are purer and more ethical than others.

I nor anyone else is telling you or anyone else how to hunt or what your ethics should be, Why Do You Feel The Need To Try And Impose YOUR Idea Of Ethical Hunting On Everyone Else?????????????