Being only a one time hunter to Africa (buff) I am not qualified to weigh in on the merits of the discussion about the ethics of shooting a leopard in those circumstances. I will confine myself(hopefully to lighten the atmosphere) to a story that my PH told me after I stood in awe of the first baobab tree I had ever seen. He told me that he and his two Zulu trackers on one occasion came up to a tree with a big "cave" area. He asked one of the trackers to check whether a leopard could be there. The guy crawled very cautiously -before he was even in there, the PH blew into a hole in the truck in an imitation of a leopard's cough. The poor tracker came out of the "cave" like he was jet propelled. After hearing that story, I told the PH that I thought he was a really cruel illegimate son of his mother!

GP375, think I will join in with ya.

Thread brings to mind the fisherman who is accused by the gamewarden of illegally catching fish. Fisherman takes the warden out in the lake, lights up a stick of dynamite, hands it to the startled gamewarden and asks, "now, are you going to fish or cut bait"! Suppose it would be fine with the naysayers here if the hunter had fired into the cave and then shot the cat as it came out the opening - big difference? Not really.

Brooks i have never implied that i am perfect or without fault, no man is and never will be. True i am from Africa and maybe i am old school and living in a different era in my own head. I was taught and brought up on ethics being the basis and foundation of a hunters activities, that regardless of who was watching or not there was an unwritten code to be followed. Rule number 1 is that the animal deserves a sporting chance which means that at some stage and often i would go home empty handed after being outwitted or outsmarted - that is why it is called hunting and not shooting. Many of the game laws in Africa were based on the ethics of the time - what is acceptable, sporting and fair.Men were man enough to stand up and question the activities of another in order that standards were maintained and honourable conduct was retained. Most hunters on this forumn hold the old East Africa PH's in high regard - did they not have a code of ethics and game laws derived from ethics? Why are there minimum calibre sizes for DG? Quite simply because it is unethical to shoot an animal with a calibre that does not consistently kill quickly and cleanly in the hands of the average hunter.

As sport hunters we cannot remove ourselves from ethics and somewhere there needs to be a line drawn. I do not accept the argument of "I wont comment on what you do and you dont comment on what i do" That is the weakest most spineless argument in the book. You are basically saying that we can all pretty much do what we want - is that what hunting is coming to?

Do we have to have laws legislated by governments to tell hunters what we can and cannot do in every given situation?

Ethics is not about being purer or elitist, they define boundaries for what we do and maintain a standard in a pasttime that many of us devote a large amount of our lives to. If anything goes there where do we draw a line between sport hunting or just plain old collecting or even commercial hunting? Will it one day be ok to hunt Mtn Nyala from helicopters because 7 day hunts are all the time people can afford to take off work?

I have had my say now and this is the last post from me on this topic. I have no desire to get into a personal mud slinging match with anyone regardless of how our opinions may differ. I think i have made my point of view clear. Call me what you like and fire away with insults if you wish but the Ethics in hunting need to be discussed, challenged and debated in every generation. The death of ethics will be the death of sport hunting as we know it.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott450:
Brooks i have never implied that i am perfect or without fault, no man is and never will be. True i am from Africa and maybe i am old school and living in a different era in my own head. I was taught and brought up on ethics being the basis and foundation of a hunters activities, that regardless of who was watching or not there was an unwritten code to be followed. Rule number 1 is that the animal deserves a sporting chance which means that at some stage and often i would go home empty handed after being outwitted or outsmarted - that is why it is called hunting and not shooting. Many of the game laws in Africa were based on the ethics of the time - what is acceptable, sporting and fair.Men were man enough to stand up and question the activities of another in order that standards were maintained and honourable conduct was retained. Most hunters on this forumn hold the old East Africa PH's in high regard - did they not have a code of ethics and game laws derived from ethics? Why are there minimum calibre sizes for DG? Quite simply because it is unethical to shoot an animal with a calibre that does not consistently kill quickly and cleanly in the hands of the average hunter.

As sport hunters we cannot remove ourselves from ethics and somewhere there needs to be a line drawn. I do not accept the argument of "I wont comment on what you do and you dont comment on what i do" That is the weakest most spineless argument in the book. You are basically saying that we can all pretty much do what we want - is that what hunting is coming to?

Do we have to have laws legislated by governments to tell hunters what we can and cannot do in every given situation?

Ethics is not about being purer or elitist, they define boundaries for what we do and maintain a standard in a pasttime that many of us devote a large amount of our lives to. If anything goes there where do we draw a line between sport hunting or just plain old collecting or even commercial hunting? Will it one day be ok to hunt Mtn Nyala from helicopters because 7 day hunts are all the time people can afford to take off work?

I have had my say now and this is the last post from me on this topic. I have no desire to get into a personal mud slinging match with anyone regardless of how our opinions may differ. I think i have made my point of view clear. Call me what you like and fire away with insults if you wish but the Ethics in hunting need to be discussed, challenged and debated in every generation. The death of ethics will be the death of sport hunting as we know it.

Well said.

Being an old man I am always nervous when I hear the word "ethics". (I was raised that a gentleman never explains himself) However I do understand that there is a code of behaviour that every hunter is supposed to observe - because it is supposed to spring from within his own feeling as a hunter -born and bred within him. I have read on this thread comments from men that I think have seen leopards first hand - and I can believe how a leopard can come like greased lightning out of a black spot -and if you happen to be standing in front of him - well -good luck! - Personally, I woukld prefer a 12 ga. with #2s -and pray to heaven that my timing was good!

Aldo Leopold wrote in his " A Sand County Almanac" "A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct.Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conduct, rather than by a mob of onlookers.It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact". Hunting is a purely personal experience. In my brief month in Zimbabwe (Chirisa) I heard and saw much about the leopard -and learned to fear him. How he was hunted (and I never did hunt him) I leave the "ethics" to others more experienced.

Eyedoc, congratulation what an exciting hunt. I love to share the excitement of my fellow hunters, I enjoy their exploits, I enjoy all types of free range hunting and I do not force my ethics down other fellow hunter’s throats.

I see nothing wrong with the way eyedoc hunted his leopard, anyone who has hunted leopard can appreciate the excitement and risk involved.

Aziz

Oh good God, why don't you just go ahead and join the ranks of the anti-hunters; you are 75% of the way there now.

The real problem is not what you regard as ethical hunting practices, just that you intend to enforce your perceptions on the rest of us. Pretty damn arrogant. Most of us tend to respect others to the point that we would never be so arrogant as to tell another man how to hunt.

A bit of respect for men that are at LEAST your equals and more likely your BETTERS might stand you in good stead.

j

Eyedoc,

Thanks for sharing your hunt! I look forward to your next one.

jpj3

I fail to see why having trackers and help beat the bushes putting themselves at risk is more ethical than firecrackers.

Scott450 you missed my point and maybe I did make it very clear. What is ethical to you may not be ethical to others and vice versa. I have always ssid, you need to look at yourself before you condemn others. Game laws were established not because of hunting ethics but to protect the resource for future generations.

I am guessing and it is only a guess the reason we have mimimum calibres for certain DG animals because of safety.

One thing for sure we can agree to disagree.

Sometimes standards above the legal minimum are a good thing, but I find it hard to draw the line for others in most cases. As a healthcare professional I have ethics established for me above and beyond the legal minimum and quite frankly I think that's a good thing. Saying ethics have no place in hunting or anything for that matter is BS, but I'm not sure where that place is. I know when I'm comfortable with something and when I'm not. That distinction doesn't solely lie on legal or illegal it lies on what I feel is right or wrong and I conduct myself accordingly.

Brett

To my mind the cat had beaten you by staying in the cave and fighting off the dogs. Just my conscience in play but it gives me as much enjoyment to let an animal like that "win" as to push it further.
That statement however is from a person who has not invested the time or money that Eyedoc had to taking this trophy. He is proud of his accomplishment and to me says enough of the hunt to know that it was Ethical enough for him to happily share it with us.

Ethics are a difficult thing to quantify as they are a product of each changing situation. There are many far less ethical practices going on all around the world all the time, but its only the ones that people choose to share that actually do any good or harm.

Congratulations to Eyedoc, who sleeps with a smile on his face and thoughts of Africa in his head. Hunters like him are paying for the conservation of Africa and its wild places, and for that they deserve far more credit than we can ever pay them.
Good hunting
Ian

Lets all remember something here,,,,Eyedoc didn't say,, lets smoke him out , drop in some smoke bombs or firecrackers. He made a factual account of the hunt for which we can all learn from and be able to ask more questions of the outfitter etc. on his methods. He wasn't looking for an easy way out and I can assure you it wasn't for lack of guts,,, I have seen him stand his ground kill ferral pigs with a knife, and I know he has killed buffalo with a bow, elephant at less than 20 paces with open sighted rifles. If it was hornet season and the weapons were ping pong padels he would stand his ground and do battle ethically,, whatever that is fighting hornets,,,,. He trained for months for this hunt, ran 5 miles a day to be in shape, practiced with his rifles. I can assure you,,, it wasn't about the kill that he was there,, it was about the "HUNT" He left non mature elephant bulls walking after hunting them for weeks. He relied on his "Ph". The Ph is the field commander and most of us follow their advice and their lead as to what is legal,,,,,,,,and "ethical" ... Anyone wants to stick their elitist nose in the air,,, point it in the right direction,,, the Ph and his association of brothers in arms and let them debate it. Great hunt eyedoc, and good report.

What's the problem here? Doesn't everyone routinely carry firecrackers in your hunting pack for just such an occassion? Why, I never leave home without them!

Hand Grenades are more effective...''

Just sayin...

Saeed has Walter,,, Walter would have figured a very creative solution to the situation! The rest of us have to rely on our Ph and past experiences!

quote:

We also informed you about the recommendation of our Association to the Namibian Ministry of Environment and Tourism to also close leopard and cheetah trophy hunting for 2010 to get “our house in order” by drawing up additional guidelines and regulations for fair-chase, ethical and sustainable utilization of our valuable natural resources.

quote:

However NAPHA has decided to utilize all additional means available to increase the collegial/industry pressure to respect our NAPHA Code of Conduct, the Code of Ethical Sport-hunting for Africa and the Namibian hunting regulations.
1.) We will inform our partner organizations like SCI and DSC and CIC of any misconduct;
2.) We will inform the clients about illegal operations of their PHs/outfitters;
3.) We will notify CITES;
4.) We will notify US Fish and Wildlife;
5.) This could lead to the enforcement of the LACEY act, with possible severe consequences for the hunting clients themselves;
6.) We will participate on a limited scale on the internet hunting chat forums, as we recognize the importance and the speed of these institutions in order that the market forces will apply additional pressure on the PHs/outfitters to play the game according the self-imposed and self-defined rules and regulations.
7.) Publication of law transgressions in NAPHA’s own electronic newsletter and the NAU newsletter- including details of actions taken;
8.) We will inform the regional professional hunters associations about misconduct
of their members within Namibia, as we recognize the importance and the speed of these institutions in order that the market forces will apply additional pressure on the PHs/outfitters to play the game according the self-imposed and self-defined rules and regulation.

Its about time this happened; going to be interesting to see how this develops and i am pretty sure that it is not going to be acceptable to include firecrackers as part of the hunting experience!

Scott450- I saw a copy of the correspondence you sent to NAPHA.Thank you very much for your interest in my hunt.

Please know that these new regulations were in the works before my hunt took place and that Karl even took off one afternoon from my hunt to attend the first of these meetings. He will sit on the advisory board that will make reccommendations for the new regs that are currently in the works.

I doubt very seriously if he or any other pro-dog hunter will advise against outlawing the use of firecrackers but if such a regulation is forced down their throats it is quite easy to simply fire a shot or two into the hole to achieve the same effect.

Again, thanks for your interest,well intentioned however ignorant, in my hunt.Go ahead and keep trying to divide the ranks of your fellow brethren with petty issues such as this and if you are lucky you may get the US Fish and Wildlife to take notice and halt the importation of leopard trophies from Namibia into the US.This tactic has put a pretty good crimp in polar bear hunts and has led to making cheeta pretty well worthless in Namibia as well.

Ethics which you are so proud of are regional. Using crackers to get a raccoon out of a hole in a tree is common where I come from.Walking away from a treed coon just cause he is not interested in committing suicide would be considered stupid. It is this background that I brought with me when I went to Africa to hunt leopard with hounds and I would have thought our dog handler a novice if we had put a cat in a cave and he had no plans on how to deal with it.As I stated earlier ,I was not at all surprised to see the dog man had a couple packs of crackers and I never thought twice about him using them. As to your notion that the cat had won, I say you are wrong. The second cat we ran refused to come out in spite of our attempts with crackers. He won.

I owe much to Saeed and to many on this site who have given advice when I first started going to Africa.But in some ways I think I would be better off if I had never visited this site. It has taught me that I should be ashamed because I bowhunt from waterholes more often than stalking with a rifle. I should also be ashamed that I have such a great time spotlighting varmints. I also must confess to shooting dangerous game with a pushfeed 375.I should also admit that I felt pretty good admiring my cracker aided leopard till I was explained how wrong it was.

To Karl- I deeply apologize if my posting this report has caused you any angst or inconvenience.Have folks contact me directly for references because I think I am about done here.

To Scott450- You represent the sort of miserable prick that is not happy unless he is making other people miserable also. I am sure you have some redeeming qualities and a mother and a dog who think the world of you even if nobody else does.I wish you well though it pains me to do so.

I'm with eyedoc, 100%.

I was pleased that he got a leopard. I did not repel, cringe, or gasp when I read his report and account of the leopard hunt. I was happy for him and I still am. I even posted the first pictures of his leopard on AR.

I live in Alabama (not so far from eyedoc in Louisiana) where, for years, deer "drives" were the accepted form of deer hunting. I'll give you one guess as to the favorite tool of the drivers / beaters . . . FIRECRACKERS. This outrage about the firecrackers is just not a big deal to me. If it's a big deal to you, fine, don't use a firecracker to flush a leopard out of a cave. You don't, however, have to crap all over a man's hard work and hard won trophy because his hunt was not up to your personal OPINION of what a hunt should or should not be.

I took a helluva miserable beating a few weeks ago when a story about my 2009 leopard ran in my local paper. I live in a small town where hunting is very much in the mainstream. So much that our paper does an annual Outdoors Edition. Some folks from the paper knew that I'd had a good leopard hunt and asked to do a story. I obliged since it was the outdoors edition. Like Eyedoc, I made a full disclosure of the hunt. This included the shooting bait, using the spotlight, building a blind, and all of the things that go with a baited leopard hunt. Well, the story ran and I got KILLED like you cannot believe. Letters to the editor came in for weeks. Most of them started, "I don't have anything against hunting, BUT . . ." I was stunned. Of course, there was not a harsh word spoken about the dozens of dead deer, ducks, geese, and turkeys that were on the same pages. Personally, I have no reservations about any portion of my successful leopard hunt and the means employed to get the cat(still don't either). Others, however, thought it was the most god awful thing since the assisnation of JFK (and they still do too). Frankly, they are welcome to their opinion (and to F-off too)

I say that about my bad PR experience to say leave eyedoc and his leopard the hell alone! It SUCKS to be so happy and pleased about your hunt and then to have others run it and you into the ground. In my case, at least it was just a bunch of rednecks turned tree huggers calling me names. In eyedoc's case, however, you have some "old hands" with much African hunting experience talking about the "ethics" of this deal. From the Tim Herald - Karl Stumpfe fiasco in the days leading up to eyedoc's hunt to the ethics shitstorm brewed up after he posted his hunt report, I'd say eyedoc has had enough drama to go with any one hunt. Regardless of ethics, the leopard is dead and it ain't coming back. Let the man enjoy the memory of a leopard hunt that he enjoyed enough and thought to be important enough to share with his peers on this forum.

Like my momma said, "If you don't have anything nice to say, then keep your mouth shut."

From a fellow persecuted and villified leopard hunter,

I'm personnaly opposed to using firecrackers. I perfer to pump carbon-monoxide into my caves to gas'em. Fewer holes for the taxidermist to sew up that way.

Eyedoc i have never ever been in contact with NAPHA either telephonically, electronically or otherwise.

I have never set foot in Namibia and have no vested interest in the hunting industry in that country. This forumn is a place for us to share opinions and comment; my opinions and comment are definitely in no way the gospel but they are mine and i am entitled to share them and that is where i draw the line. I may share topical info from the forumns with friends via email but i have never sent NAPHA or anyone in Namibia any correspondence regarding your hunt.Please get your facts straight before you start waving fingers in my direction

"Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are"

Franklin Delano Roosevelt

quote:

Originally posted by Scott450:
"Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are"

Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Scott
I found two FDR quotes that seem to favor firecracker hunting:

quote:

"Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort."

and

"It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something."

You never can nail down these democrats

Hell Jason that is an argument that i dont even want to go near - will leave the Republican vs Democrat argument up to you guys at home in the US

Now i have really opened a can of whoop ass quoting a democrat on a pro gun, pro hunting forum

I just returned from a hunt, and to say the least, I am dissapointed at this whole post. When will we stop critising each other, without even having been in the same situation? Is it any more ethical to burn down a man's memories of his hunt, because YOU do not agree with it, than using a cracker? Anti hunters do not care how "ethical" we hunt, they hate it all. Remember, we are KILLING animals, something they cannot agree to even in the most ethical possible way.

Originally posted by Scott450:

quote:

Eyedoc i have never ever been in contact with NAPHA either telephonically, electronically or otherwise.

I have never set foot in Namibia and have no vested interest in the hunting industry in that country. This forumn is a place for us to share opinions and comment; my opinions and comment are definitely in no way the gospel but they are mine and i am entitled to share them and that is where i draw the line. I may share topical info from the forumns with friends via email but i have never sent NAPHA or anyone in Namibia any correspondence regarding your hunt.Please get your facts straight before you start waving fingers in my direction

Well, Scott, then it was someone posing as you, as I have seen that email myself. (from eamil address scott450@hotmail.co.uk), which makes it even more sinister...
If you do not like the method, fine, it warrants some discussion, but why be so abrasive about it? Or is there something else behind all this?
I do believe that I have not broken any laws of my country, and also that we (myself and my trackers on the discussed cat, and also eyedoc on the first cat) where in grave danger, we where less than 2 meters from the cat, and if he decided to come out of the bigger opening, he was less than 2 seconds away from us.

As to sporting chance, I have used this meathod 3 times before, and this was the first time it worked, so it is definately not a sure thing. I do believe that if you have chased a leopard into a cave, and spend 2-3 hours to get all the dogs out of the cave, I for one consider that cat "wounded". Maybe not by a hunters bullet, but normally it will have some battle scars from the dogs, and be VERY upset. Is it any more right to let such a cat walk, as one that was nicked by a hunters bullet?

Further, it is entirely legal in Namibia to shoot a leopard 20 minutes after sunset, from a blind 60 meters away from the bait, but is it the right thing to do? Even with very good optics, that cat is mostly not very visible, and the chances of shooting a undesireable cat, or wounding it, is very high. But most of the ethics Gestapo frowns on the use of spotlights, as it is "not etical" to them, but it surely will reduce the chances of a wounded cat. So what is ethical?

To me, hunting ethics stands on 4 legs:
1) Was it legal?
2) Are the quarry respected as much as possible, and given a fair chance?
3) Was I comfortable with the way the hunt played out?
4) Was the meathod employed acceptable to my peers/ fellow hunters?

To me, at the time when we where busy with this leopard, I whould have answered yes to all the above questions, so to me it was ethical. Maybe not to Scott and some others, but once again, why the attack rather than a normal, sober discussion about it? Maybe to make sure of (4), he should have started this post as a poll. Scott, once again, I value your input, but do not agree with your opinion.

Eyedoc

I've got no problem with the leopard and the firecrackers, bow at the waterhole, spotlight the varments, hell you can even shoot off the truck for all I care BUT shooting dangerous game with a pushfeed 375? Good God man, you must draw the line somewhere!

Enjoy your trophy, you earned it.

TerryR

I have an open apology to make, while i do not change my stand on the ethics or rather lack thereof of that is creeping into African hunting at an alarming rate i do wish to apologize to both Eyedoc and Karl for the manner in which i raised the discussion and the way in which i used their hunt to drive home my point. I was too quick on the keyboard and i agree that i was rather abrasive and in poor taste in the manner in which i handled matters.

Eyedoc and i have sorted out our differences privately and amicably.

Karl the Scott that emailed NAPHA was not me, chat to eyedoc for further verification and some private info that will convince you

Scott has convinced me that he was not the author of the e-mail complaint sent to NAPHA and that it was just a coincidence that they both used Scott450 as a handle and in their e-mail addresses. The servers they originated from are different.

We also agreed not to assault each other on-line any longer and it is my sincere wish that this will be the end of this post.

Scott will tolerate me, Tim got his money back and his springbok is to come, I had a great hunt, and as best as I can see, the only one who has truly been bloodied is Karl. He deserved better.

Scott, apology accepted.
We do need an ethical "soundboard" from time to time, so please do not feel discouraged to air your views in the future.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
[QUOTE]

Whether anyone agrees with it or not, If Something Is LEGAL, That Means Someone Determined It Was Ethical.

QUOTE]

How's this for a curve ball I'm gonna bowl:
This statement by Crazyhorse (which theme is repeated by others here too) indicates that "legal=ethical". Then is the caveat to this that "illegal=unethical"?

If that is so, then all the countries that have taken away firearm owning rights have by this act made firearm ownership unethical? Or those that have banned hunting in their stupid, zealous way have made hunting (of any sort) unethical?

There is an old adage that unethical is the stuff you do which you would not willingly make public. Eyedoc (and Karl) have put this in the most public of places. I trust that adage

PS
Glad to see the amicable settlement means that Eyedoc will still be arround here

The most amusing part of this entire thread is the irony, which is lost on many.

Some folks are demanding that others not impose their ethics on them. Which is, of course, an ethical demand of their own being imposed on others.

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
Sometimes I wonder what will happen to me here if during my life time dream in Africa I shot a big buff but AR members find some hair between the bosses, or if I shot it at 70 yards instead of at 10, or if I shot an ele in the lungs instead of braining it, or if I shot a 5 year old mainless lion instead a seven year old one with a MGM mane, or a leopard using a spotlight, or a LDE over a salt lick instead of tracking it down, etc, etc...

It seems that beacause of ethics soon we will have to stop hunting armadillos here at home using our traditional method...we fill their holes with water carried with our rubber boots from the nearer stream

L

Lorenzo, you rubber booted, water toting DEMON you! Save the armadillos!