I realize it depends on the game hunting, but I've seen/heard/read of both soft points and solids being used on a variety of game.

My school of thought is the "two holes bleed better than one." I would also rather a caliber size hole in the heart or CNS than a perfect mushroom that stops short. Expansion is a coefficient of damage. If the bullet gets there, great. If it expands while it's there, even better.

The Partition is very popular and well respected. The A-Frame is very tough.

So what is the more common bullet type used in Africa? Soft points (expanders) for plains game and solids for dangerous?

ETA: I can't afford an African hunt. Just academic at this point. I have a .375 H&H Magnum in an Encore pistol and am saving up for a Sako or CZ550 in .375 H&H.

'Bout the only thing you'll use solid on first shot is elephant. Over penetration is the fear with buffalo. Solids are good for really small antelopes. They are the "rigor" for follow ups on buffalo. Kudude

Softs are a good bet. I use Swift A Frames.

Softs vs. solids. Age old argument with no clear winner.

Y was reading Capstick and he is/was a real proponent of solids on all game, PG as well as DG.

Here's an example of Solids vs Softs.

505 Gibbs S&H 558 Grain FN Solid

505 Gibbs Woodleigh 600 Grain SP

2400 FPS @ 25 yards into 2 tons on frozen wet sand.

The third FN was shot into the same target at 2600 FPS.

I cannot believe any PH would still recomend a client initiate their first shot on anything other than elephant with a solid.

There are softs to suit every taste these days from Barnes TSX to woodeligh weldcores.

For a PH backing up a client - perhaps a slightly different story, but a 450grn TSX at 2350fps from a .458 Lott posseses sufficient penetration to reach the brain on any cow elephant and reach the heart of a buffalo with a free state heart shot.

Carrying a double makes life easy for me- solid in the left barrel and one form or other of soft in the right. In my bolt action, I typically only carried solids when backing a client since a) the usual animal was elephant & b) if I fired it would either incomming or out going at full speed and penetration was the most important overall cretieria. If we were hunting buff, I would typically load a soft on top of a mag full of solids.

My last Buff was shot with 320grn 9.3 Woodleigh Solids and thankfully so as it penetrated a wrist thick Jesse bush on the way.
Not sure if my Swift's would have made it.

It's not often that I disagree with Ganyana, but I have to say I'd always recommend a client use a solid on Rhino, Hippo and Croc as well as Elephant.

After a couple of experiences last year, I think I'd probably also prefer a client who's using a 375 on a frontal shot on a Buff to use a solid rather than a lot of makes of soft.

I'd recommend softs for all PG though.

On plainsgame you only needs softs. Last week a client took 6 animals with a 9.3 x 62 using woodleigh softs, all only needed one shot to go down. Two dropped on the spot the one that went the furtest was a Gemsbok, 50 paces. None of the bullets were recovered. With the quality softs we get today you do not have to worry about penetration, you will get plenty unless you are using a small caliber rifle or light bullets.

On plains game I would agree soft are the way to go, except for the pygmy antelope if you want to do a full body mount, then I would and have used only solids. I used 338 with 225 gr barnes solids. Well except for two which I used my drilling with 16ga buck.

I am planning a hunt next year for the pygmy antelope and have seen several people reccomend solids. I was planning to use my 3006 for this hunt. Should I use solids? What weight and type? Wuold the military type ammo work?

Dangerous Dave,

Any FMJ or solid will work but keep in mind these animals are very small and fragile so try to avoid hitting shoulder bone or any other big bone cause it will end up blowing a hole.

I used Nosler Partions on all of my PG. My PH agrees with Shakari and wants solid's on buff, elephant, and rhino, but with everything shot placement is important.

I`v shot a lot of animals with soft in caliber 3006 and 375 H&H Mag, Fine hole right thru.And the animal fell down at the spot.

I shot a Civetcat with 375 H&H Mag loaded with 270 grs Rhino Soft Point, I aimed and hit it in the belly at about 70 yards. The Civetcat exploded and fell down too earth in two pieces. Next time I use Solids for the small ones.

On Buffalo I heard them saying that load yor rifle with first shot a soft, next solid, next soft, and finally solid, I don`t know what you guys says about that.

Hallgeir Gravrok
Love hunting in Africa

I don't think you can have the soft/solid debate in the abstract. To a certain extent I think it depends on the caliber and the type of game as well. For example, I think that most people would recommend a soft for most of the larger species of plains game. On the other hand, on hippo, rhino, or elephant, I think most PH's would recommend a solid of some kind. Then caliber comes in to play. With a .375 on up, I think most would suggest a soft for the first shot on buff with follow up shots with a solid. However, I have frequently heard that when shooting buff with the 9.3X62 that solids are the best. I think you need to have both solids and softs available and listen to your PH.

Dave

I had the same experience as ozhunter, we were in thick jess and my PH said take the soft out and we will use solids due to the thickets. It worked great.

Interesting responses thanks. I figured it would be like the light/fast vs slow/heavy debates.

The game around here is 200 pound whitetail deer and 400-500 pound black bear, with small game and coyotes thrown in the mix. Nothing like larger game. One day I might get to take an elk or moose or American bison.

Being a proponent of solids is just a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You shoot a buff with a solid and it runs off because the solid has done no damage. And as it runs off, everyone is amazed at how tough buff are.

The only reason you shoot elephant with solids is because of the needed penetration.

It is just difficult for me to believe that there is a never-ending doubt in many peoples minds.

When I was a kid I had a vast supply of milsurp ammo (solids) Never could kill anything with the damn stuff though, only ever had one or two clean kills on woodchucks. Lost any desire I might ever of had to shoot solids.

quote:

Originally posted by Norwegianhunter:
Next time I use Solids for the small ones.

On Buffalo I heard them saying that load yor rifle with first shot a soft, next solid, next soft, and finally solid, I don`t know what you guys says about that.

Hallgeir Gravrok
Love hunting in Africa

100% correct, you need the solid for good penetration, your 2nd shot is most probably going to be in it's hind part.

This is the worlds oldest worn out aguement...

Like most things moderation and common since come into play or at least they should.

I still use solids and never have a problem with them on Buffalo or even plainsgame...

But, I would recommend a soft for the first shot, and solids as a follow up on buffalo..The soft for the broadside shot and stick the solids in him as he scanpers away..Softs are preferable in heard shooting, at least the first one is.

I would prefer a solid if a bull is facing me, facing away from me,or charging.

Both the soft and solid have a place in the scheme of things, but I'm sure the arguement doesn't end here..To each his own, you make the choice.

Your PH will tell you what he wants you to shoot so bring both. You are paying him for his expertise so take his advice. My PH in RSA told me to load all softs on buff (I was shooting 300gr). He would be shooting all solids. My PH in Tanz had me load 2 softs over 2 solids (all 350gr Woodleighs). For PG it was all softs but I didn't hunt any of the tiny ten.

If I'm hunting Buffalo I load tough, expanding bullets first (Trophy Bond)and follow with solids. For cats (Lion, Leopard) Nosler Partitions (quick expansion) just solids for thick skined animals. If I'm out just hunting I always start with NP and solids to follow that way I'm ready for the worst. For minitures, solids are the way to go.
Only once did I hunt buffalo with just solids. He had been attacking locals and was with just two others. It was very thick and we were just tracking him, bypassing others (took 5 days of tracking). First shot (470 NE) was 15 yards and flattened him. I gave him 2 more rights and 2 lefts just to make sure (with his reputation it was cheap insurance).
I have recovered 375 solids for buffalo but never 470's.
The old saying, "listen to your PH on what to shoot" is typically good advice.

This debate has historical roots.

Solids were always recommended for the biggest game animals, like elephant, rhino and hippo on land. As Will says, solids are still best for penetration of thick skin and drilling deep into the vitals of these huge animals.

Solids were used on other large game, including cape buffalo, large antelope and even lion, for one simple reason: up until quite recently, softs were unreliable. They would blow up, fragment or otherwise fail to penetrate.

Now that we have premium softs and monometal expanding bullets that are so much better (such as the many bonded core softs, the Swift A-Frames, Barnes X-Bullets, etc.), there is no longer any reason to use solids except on the biggest and thickest skinned game: elephant, rhino and hippo on land.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
I cannot believe any PH would still recomend a client initiate their first shot on anything other than elephant with a solid.

Ganyana,

Roger Whittall and every one of his PH's that I have spoken with and some of the Duckworth fellows that I have spoken with all prefer clients use only solids for buff. So the debate continues with both old and young still on the all solids side.

Buff die very quickly with a well placed solid, you know how the bullet will perform, and your shot presentation is less limited. Nothing not to like about that.

BTW, as Shakiri mentions, the greatest concerns regarding softs voiced by the Whittall team was performance on front on shots, as well a quartering away, but especially front on shots.

JPK

JPK, I would suggest - with all due respect - that Roger Whittall and the Duckworths need to get out more.

Trackers dug this formerly 500 grain .458 caliber Woodleigh four feet later out of a buff's guts that I shot and killed straight in the chest at 30 yards:



That was it and all she wrote. And needless to add, the Woodleigh ain't your grandpaw's soft point.

Gut shot.......not much left of that Woodie for just a flesh wound!!

Personally, I would never use a cup & core bullet for anything. Never have - never will. Unpredictable as shown in this Buff shot and extreme example I posted above. Need a bigger hole - use a bigger rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Gut shot.......not much left of that Woodie for just a flesh wound!!

Yup, not much left, but sure and it's plenty enough left - after penetrating the sternum, the heart, the nether organs and three plus feet of guts and paunch thereafter.

Those Aussies have done the job for me on many formerly living things.

Gotta rename them. Because they sure as hell aren't softs.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
JPK, I would suggest - with all due respect - that Roger Whittall and the Duckworths need to get out more.

Trackers dug this formerly 500 grain .458 caliber Woodleigh four feet later out of a buff's guts that I shot and killed straight in the chest at 30 yards:



That was it and all she wrote. And needless to add, the Woodleigh ain't your grandpaw's soft point.

OK, so what would have happened if the buff's presentation was turned 180*? Four feet gets you into the guts, but that is it.

And what if the rifle wasn't a souped up 458 (Rigby?)

And no I wouldn't take a first shot Texas XXXheartXXX gut shot on a buff. Won't even do it on a deer. Or at least I haven't seen the buff or deer that would make me want to do it.

More seriously, those fellows reported too frequent occasions where a soft "slid" along the ribs and behind, or inside, the shoulder, failing to do seriuous damage or, especially with the 375H&H where the bullets penetration was lacking, all enrgy used up in the thick and tough skin and meat up front.

The young guys were converts - from softs first to all solids, and based on experience; not what you would expect, eh? They were all loathe to admit that the respective "old man", either Duckworth or Whittall was right, yet again.

And you gotta admit, anyone who cuts his teeth and then spends a lot of time PHing in Chewore gets to know buff; its gotta be one of the best places to hunt buff in all of Africa. There are so many buff in Chewore South that they become a nussance when you arn't hunting them.

BTW, was that the Protected Point or the standard round nose?

JPK

There's a lot of factors at work here. Both calibre and exact bullet type play massive roles in what will happen after you pull that trigger.

Woodleigh make two types of SP. The SP & the PSP and they perform dramatically differently in something as large as a Buffalo.

Differenc in calibre also makes a huge difference. Take a frontal shot (esp), or a texas heart shot with a 375 and a 458 Lott (for example) and even using the same design of bullet and you'll get a big difference in what will happen.

That may well sound like I'm stating the obvious, but believe me, a lot of people seem to forget that basic rule.

I need some small caliber solids. I am getting tired of blowing the pygmie antelope and wildcats. My taxidermist says dont bother to bring them home if you blow a whole in them. Somwtimes bad shot placement by me particularly on full running shots, other times not. Even putting a soft where I am supposed to more time than not it blows a much bigger whole than you would think would happen. So I think I will do small cal at medium to fast loads with a solid, maybe even something down as low as 90 grn. I tried solids in my 458,375,300wm and 243. Results we not very conclusive mixed results for sure, My shooting cant be that bad all the time. Think I just need to just find the right combinaion. I dont want to add to the number of the little ones I have torn up working on my collection for my house.I was thinking about a .223 bench gun I have with a solid. Dont how thst would work as the tend to tumble. Ideas?

Try contacting Gerard at GS Custom and asking if he can suggest anything....... you can contact him at gscustom@wol.co.za

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
I need some small caliber solids. I am getting tired of blowing the pygmie antelope and wildcats. My taxidermist says dont bother to bring them home if you blow a whole in them. Somwtimes bad shot placement by me particularly on full running shots, other times not. Even putting a soft where I am supposed to more time than not it blows a much bigger whole than you would think would happen. So I think I will do small cal at medium to fast loads with a solid, maybe even something down as low as 90 grn. I tried solids in my 458,375,300wm and 243. Results we not very conclusive mixed results for sure, My shooting cant be that bad all the time. Think I just need to just find the right combinaion. I dont want to add to the number of the little ones I have torn up working on my collection for my house.I was thinking about a .223 bench gun I have with a solid. Dont how thst would work as the tend to tumble. Ideas?

Mike im busy testing the 69gr GSC on my 243 and im very excited about this. im sure you can download them and they are strong and accurate bullets

Mike Smith,
We make FN solids from 243 up. The specific application is for the African Small Five and large birds such as Spurwing. Those who have used FN bullets will confirm that accuracy comes easily and that soft, aqueous tissue, such as lungs and liver, is comprehensively destroyed but that firmer tissue, like muscle and skin, survives very well, exhibiting mostly caliber holes. Do avoid hitting bones with an FN, the bones tend to lose the war with the FN and fragment damage can be high.

Here is a picture of the 90gr .257" FN

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Woodleigh make two types of SP. The SP & the PSP and they perform dramatically differently in something as large as a Buffalo.

Steve:

Can you elaborate a little on that comment. What differences have you noted in the performance of the Woodleigh round nose soft points and the protected points when shooting buffalo? The reason I ask is that I just decided to switch over to the protected points because, according to Woodleigh, they allow for a bit higher impact velocity.

Dave

Dave,

The soft point is a fast opening bullet and (IMO) more suitable for cats, whereas the PSP is a slower opening bullet and more suitable for bigger animals such as Buffalo.

This difference (again IMO) becomes less important as you step up the calibres and below is a pic of a SP from my 500 that I used to to administer the coup de grace on a Buffalo. I've used the SP a few times for this, and I reckon the large calibre combined with the very close range of less than a yard, makes them very suitable for this particular job, but I'd always advise a client to use the PSP rather than the SP for ordinary hunting..... especially with calibres closer to the 375s etc.

Here's the pic.

Thanks Steve. That was my take on it as well.

I had been shooting the Woodleigh round nose soft points in my 9.3. However, I can easily get the 286 grain bullets upwards of 2360 fps and I think that is a bit much velocity for the round nose Woodleighs. I have switched to the protected points in that caliber. I also use the protected points in my .375. I use the round nose bullets in my .404. I think they are well suited for the .404 impact velocities if you don't soup it up to much.

Again, thanks your help.

Dave

I've used the standard round nose Woodleigh in .458" to make insurance shots on several already down and dead or knocked out elephant cows. I used them necause I was running low on solids.

From about a foot or two away from the top of the head and neck, they reach the brain and the spine respectively. But this shot offers the least required penetration to get to the brain or spine and isn't available unless the ele is already down and dead or at least out.

Still speaks well for the Woodleighs.

JPK