The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting The 45-70 is a stopping rifleGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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According to Jeff Cooper... One of the prime advantages of the 45-70 is its adaptability to compact lever-action rifles, making it particularly suitable for African professional hunters who shoot only in emergencies, and then at short range. Mike Garrett, making the ammunition, and Jim West, making the rifles, have brought the so-called "Co-pilot" into recent prominence, and it could not happen to a nicer item. He didn't actually say "stopper" but "shoot in emergency" would imply that. PS Don't shoot the messenger! I don't even like lever guns much...and I'm only going to use the 45-70 on buff once-when I win the raffle! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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Yep, senility is a bummer. | |||
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I guess I agree there might be some stopping done with a safari grade lever action 45-70. It remains to be seen who is the stopper and who is the "stoppee"! ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} Good Hunting, | |||
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Gatehouse, PS Don't shoot the messenger! I don't even like lever guns much...and I'm only going to use the 45-70 on buff once-when I win the raffle! Good thing you qualified your post, these fellows would have never let you back to their forum. HI By the way, don't plan on going on the raffle hunt as I'm going to win. And again for the umpteenth time, I'm not an advocate for the use of the 45/70 for DG. Stay loose guys. Roger QSL | |||
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quote:What is the best way to dry out a coffee-spilled keyboard? | |||
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Jeff has not used the .45-70 Co-Pilot himself on Cape buff, he used his .460 G&A. He does think well of the Co-Pilot package for an emergency firearm. jim dodd | |||
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| <allen day> |
A lever action Marlin oughta be just one heck of a safari rifle, especially if you feed it those magic bullets. As you sit around the campfire, you might just hear stories from the PHs about how worthless they think the old .458 Winchester is. But hey, you're shootin' special ammo, and so that ol' .45-70 should out-perform the obsolete .458 six ways to Sunday. Isn't it amazing that somebody didn't devise this evolved miracle of terminal performance decades ago? Next thing you know, they'll come up with designer bib overalls for safari wear to set the whole ensemble off with...... AD [ 10-11-2002, 07:52: Message edited by: allen day ] | ||
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The .45-70 is by no means a stopping rifle. I do have a question for those in the know: What is the difference between a client rifle and a PH's rifle? Also, have any of you over-gunned the PH and why? | |||
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| Moderator |
Gatehouse, Was he referring to DG or plains game. I saw a video where the South African PH carried a lever-action on a follow-up (bushbuck, I believe). He also had a 6" .44magnum, and a pig-sticker. George | |||
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In the first place Mr Cooper is a guru of MAN KILLING FIREARMS and that is what the 45-70 gov was designed for! Every firearm he has designed were for urban assualt, and some of those were not very good! As Hunter Jim says, Cooper used a 460 G&A to shoot his Buffalo! ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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quote:Dave, some have the opinion, it makes no difference what the client uses to hunt dangerous game, because the PH will have a REAL DGR, and the expertese to pull the clients nutts out of the fire! I, for one do not share this opinion! I believe if you are going to hunt a dangerous animal, you should use a rifle designed for that purpose. My iopinion is, if you were alone, would you go up against the animal you are hunting with the rifle you are useing while accompanied by a PH? If the answer to that question is "NO", then you are carrying the wrong rifle! Just this last year, we had a very well known, and very compitant PH, step in a hole, durring a Cape buffalo charge, breaking his ancle, and going down. The buffalo was on him in a flash, and almost killed him. His 470NE double rifle did him no good. The client had to take matters in hand, and save the day. NOW! Ask yourself, would you, in the same cercumstances, want to be that PH, who had reccomended a smaller then proper rifle for your client? I go into the field with the proper armament, to pull my own weight. So! I guess you could say, my opinion is, if you are hunting dangerous game that may require STOPPING, then you need a stopping rifle, and the PH's rifle should the same. My opinin is, there is no difference between the two rifles! ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Cooper has written of his PH, Danie van Graan of Egonyameni Safaris, using the Co-Pilot as a backup rifle on lion, and for hunting buffalo successfully. He has not written, nor has he advocated, the Co-Pilot as a stopping rifle on larger DG like buffalo, elephant, and hippo. | |||
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quote:Exactly Right!!! There seems to be an opinion here that a PH will pull the fat out of the fire if you screw up. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. Mac's example is one of many that demonstrate that depending on anyone else when your life is in danger is foolhardy in the extreme. What if his rifle jams? What if he stumbles on a root? What if he panics (it does happen)? What if he misses? What if you panic and block the shot? A thousand what ifs that your life may hang on. Mac's point about never taking a rifle after DG with a PH that you wouldn't take if you were alone is a good suggestion. | |||
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HI, I am going to agree with MACD37, who I disagree on everything when it comes to lever actions.That is why I will go with a 50-110 in a lever action that send a 570 grain bullet at 2000 fps and will stop any big bad buff anywhere any time any place.I just got in some 500 grain Kodiak bullets from Alaskan Bullet works so when my gun comes in I can brake in the barrel. I think I will just push them around 2150 or 2200 fps nothing to much . How is that.Thanks, KEV | |||
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Thanks MacD37, I didn't know, hence the question. Personally, I would prefer a .416 something or higher. But I am trying to get to a .450 Nitro equivalent from a lever action. Don't ask me why, I have other more capable rifles, just the can it be done thing. As Elmer said Too much beats not enough. | |||
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I was just curious as to the ratio of actual "safari models" vs the "standard models" of simular caliburs, as used on DG. I see that Remington, Winchester, Savage, SAKO, Weatherby, Steyr, Browning, all have 375 H&H or better, chambered in their respective "standard" models. Are we to believe none of these "standard" rifles (aka NOT Safari models) have ever made it to Africa? None? Are we to believe only "Safari models" are suitable, simply because it says "Safari" in the gun's name? Are we to believe laws exist in Africa that state only "safari models" must be used? (I'm only questioning the notion that a rifle must have the word "safari" in it's name to be suitable for DG, and have NO desire to beat that dead horse some folks keep bringing up.) ~~~Suluuq [ 10-12-2002, 11:37: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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As with Jeff Cooper's comments on the Co-Pilot for use on lion (not all DG), I believe TR's comment about the .405 as "big medicine" was also about its use on lion (not all DG). | |||
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| <Husky> |
Gentlemen, The Bofors 40mm Anti Aircraft Gun is also a wonderful Stopper -I have uesd it serveral times against Man eating Sea Gulls (in the Swedish arcipelago)with terrific results, especially when using tracer ammunition. I think that VT fuzes (doppler radar fuze) is on the wrong side of what could be considered etic. Sofar i have not been attacked by any Man eating Sea gull! /Husky | ||
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| <Rusty> |
Husky, Sounds like a heck of a Stopper! I don't suppose we could get that Bofor 40MM in a Marlin lever action? having been dive bombed by those Stukka Sea Gulls I know you need a stopper! Thanks Husky! I needed a good laugh! Rusty We band of brothers! [ 10-12-2002, 19:52: Message edited by: Rusty ] | ||
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| <leo> |
Hey Alf, I wouldn't go calling Bell a liar just because some history writer didn't like the ideal of him using an "inapropriate" caliber. If it worked for him, that was his call. The man had no reason to lie about that. To each his own. | ||
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But sometimes the reporters get it straight and clear, i.e., Samaki Salmon, the Kiwi Fish, killed 4 times the number of elephant (over about two decades) that Bell did in his short period of ivory hunting. Samaki used, and much preferred, a 416 Rigby. Could a 416 Rigby fit in a lever action? The pressures at least could be right if it could be done. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Leo, I'm sure you're an old African hand of wide experience, but I agree with Alf's perspective on Bell's exploits with a 7X57. If you really bother to read Bell's books, you'll see that much of his preference for that cartridge (amoung others) had more to to with convenience, portability, and reliability of specific available ammo than it did with any special terminal performance capability of the cartridge itself. Heck, my great grandfather used a .44-40 for just about everything for over fifty years. You can bet, though, if he were alive today and had to operate under today's conditions that he'd use something with more punch. Time doen't stand still for anyone except armchair historians......... AD | ||
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quote:This is exactly what I said, so I believe we agree, although I took the opposite appoach. I stated that 'standard models' from the major makers, chambered in proper cartridges, are used in Africa too, not just their 'safari models', which is to say Marlin does not need a 'safari model' for their leverguns to be used in Africa, as some foolishly argue, as if to explain a Marlin 45-70 has no business in Africa what-so-ever. ~~~Suluuq [ 10-13-2002, 13:58: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ] | |||
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| <Rusty> |
Gunn, The 45/70 does belong in Africa! It should be, within it's range limitations, an adequate plains game rifle! Rusty We band of brothers! | ||
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quote:I have no problem with this at all. Unlike you, and some others, I see nothing wrong with it being used on DG, within those same limitations. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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HI, RUSTY GUNN, you got a lot of heart and you are a fighter and a lever lover like me. I think you could hunt DG with a pocket knife.I am just trying to lighten up a little bit. Thanks,kev | |||
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I just read an account on Live Hunt about a fellow who stopped a charging Grizzly with an arrow at 4 yards. He had already stuck it at 18 yards when it charged. The Bear turned and the guide popped it with a .375. Check it out. http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/features/LIVEHUNTS/fallgrizzly2002 | |||
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| <Per577> |
When standing almost in a herd of cape buff's it's hard to imagine someone would choose a tiny lever action in cal.45-70( i would understand if the animals were american buffalo's,which does'nt even come close in toughness). You must reconsider, putting yourself into that context. Then i'd rather choose a bolt action or double in 470 NE or BG in 458 lott or .460 Wby !! ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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Ya know I've noticed over the years that fellows need to find some way to seperate thenselves from the next guy. I believe it had it's beginnings when men began to wear pants. From that day on one guy couldn't look at another guy and determine his relative status, his place in the heirarchy. After pants came, he had to build, buy something to to establish his status. Maybe we should all go back to leaving pants at home, then we can find out if what some have suspected is the correlation between big expensive firearms/ cars/ boats/ etc and a lack or surplus of natural attributes. Leaving the pants at home sure would save money, wouldn't have to buy pants or expensive substitutes for natural attributes. Jim | |||
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Rusty Gunn, What African dangerous game do you personally plan to take with a 45-70 lever? | |||
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You all may be interested to hear that while in Zimbabwe I ended up hunting for a while in the Matetsi Safari Area. Another client was hunting on a different unit and he used a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 to kill his cape buffalo. He was using a hard casted 450 gr projectile at his reported velocity of 2000 fps. I believe it took only a shot (or two as a finisher) to kill the beast. He also used it to shoot into the skull of his elephant (which he shot with a 458 Lott) to test penetration. So I guess someone has proved a Lever action 45/70 can kill a buffalo (who ever doubted that anyway) but definitely still hasn't proved it is a GOOD DGR. So now that it has been proved anyway, can the winner of the raffle use a sensible calibre? [ 10-16-2002, 18:31: Message edited by: NitroX ] | |||
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quote:natural attributes? Isn't that what John Taylor liked to do? Are you a friend of Axel's? | |||
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| <Phil R> |
Mickey, That bow hunt story is FANTASTIC!!!!!!! I can't remember reading a more exciting hunt story. That guy sure earned that trophy. That has to be the experience of a lifetime. | ||
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Mickey No I'm not a friend of Axels. I think that fellow is an irritation. I own two 45-70s, enjoy the heck out of them. Some day I will take the money and the time to build a shoulder fired cannon. If I have the interest afterwards I'll take the cannon and my 45-70s to Africa and see what I can do. I have no problem with the more experienced fellows rendering an opinion. But please don't ridicule or belittle some one who doesn't have the money or experience. Jim | |||
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arkypete I'm sorry, did I miss something here? I was not ridiculing or belittleing you. I was referencing your comment about leaving your pants at home. John Taylor was famous/infamous for hunting naked with the 'boys'. (leaving his pants at home?) On another thread BBBabler is giving Axel a hard time over the YMCA and.. Oh never mind. | |||
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Oh my! | |||
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quote:I read this article, and the bowhunter did not stop the charge. He didn't even turn the charge. His guide turned the charge with his .375H&H. George | |||
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