I was discussing with one of my guys yesterday. He knows how and where to shoot an animal, but has absolutely no idea of ballistics, or notion of debates about bigger-faster-more-better-cannons.

Over the years he has seen quite a number of buffalo shot, and has witnessed his share of good kills, not-so-good kills, total clusterfucks, and occasional charges.

We were discussing about getting a rifle for himself, and I asked him which calibers he had seen used on buffalo. He mentioned a number of them, going from .375 to .577.

I then asked him which caliber he reckoned killed buffalo better than the others. Without the slightest hesitation he said ".375".

When pressed more on why bigger calibers were not killing as well, he thought over it for a while, and concluded: "Because people don't hit the buffalo where they should..."

Now that was perfect!!!!!!!!!!

Truer words were never spoken.

Bigger rifles are only better, in the sense that they can incapacitate, if not kill, faster, when the shooter can do and does his job.

Saeed has probably killed more Buffalo than all of them put together.

I hope that he chimes in here.

This argument will never go away.

I am sure the argument for using a bigger caliber goes back to that silly idea put forward by Taylor, the Taylor Knockout Value!

Taylor might have gotten a different idea if he had consulted the animals first

If it was legal to use a smaller caliber for buffalo, I would be more than happy to use my 30/404, with our 180 grain Walterhog bullets, and I am absolutely certain I would never have any problems hunting them.

I probably shoot more large bore guns than a lot of people, and I certainly enjoy that - shooting at targets.

But for hunting, I really do not want to put up with the weight and recoil of a heavy caliber, that MIGHT be useful if something actually goes wrong.

I said MIGHT, because I am not convinced that a marginal shot under adverse conditions MIGHT have a batter effect on a charging animal.

I would rather rely on my shooting ability, and place the bullet where it will do more damage - by hitting the CNS.

Hitting a charging buffalo anywhere else is very dicey, and one never knows what the results might be.

To me, the most over riding requirement for buffalo hunting is sufficient penetration, from any angle one might have to shoot, and accurate bullet placement.

The size of the gun is immaterial.

Also, I think there are relatively few people who can actually shoot a large caliber, accurately, under stress.

And arm chair gun writers have been guilty of promoting the idea that BIGGER IS BETTER when things go wrong, which is a load of bloody bullshit.

Basically, make your first shot count, regardless of what rifle you are using.

Screw this one up, and no matter what rifle - or canon - you are using, you will have a problem on your hands.

Some of the horror stories one hears from PHs of clients trying to use a bigger gun than they can handle makes your mind boggles!


I can remember meeting a hunter passing through our camp, who had a 416 Rigby custom rifle. He had it in a thump hole stock, that weighed about 15 pounds!!

As soon as I saw that gun, I told his PH, "I think you are going to have a bit of a problem".

He smiled and said "How did you guess? We have already had a problem hitting the target BOX, let alone the target!"

They went off, and the man had only one box of ammo, and he wanted to shoot a lion!

They ran out of ammo before that could happen, and I think they only managed to shoot a young kudu bull - by mistake, as he was apparently trying to shoot a kudu cow for bait. Which he missed, and hit the young bull a few feet away!

This might be an extreme example, but I assure you many incident like this happen every year.

Now what about early season Elephant?

Taylor's KO values came from an earlier era; just like the formulae that folks like Hatcher and Col Cooper used back in the day to develop the concept of relative stopping power in handgun cartridges and that is now an obsolete idea.

Shot placement is everything, as Bell demonstrated with his 7mm. Best advice I was ever given was to get a good basic firearm and spend every cent I could in practice ammo.

Oz,
I'll keep my doubles in 500 or 600 for those
Early season eles in the Jess !!


Cheers

Nick

I've not shot as many buff as Saeed, but I have shot over 20. I've shot em with 6 different calibers - including the .577NE and the .600NE. The best all-around African cartridge for DG that I have ever used is the .375 RUM - which is the same basic cartridge as Saeed's 375/404.

Obviously shot placement is the key - that just goes without saying!

I designed and built our 375/404, long before Remngton came up with the 375 RUM, specifically for hunting buffalo, and other dangerous game, at any range.

Dozens of elephants and hundreds of buffalo have been killed by it.

Never felt we needed anything bigger.

Agree with Saeed. Taylor's fantasy math and engineering are just that, fantasy. Knockdown power is a false concept. Bullets do no know down an animal the size of a buffalo or a deer for that matter. The animal drops when the CNS is touched or a serious weight supporting bone is destroyed.

All of the talk about "stopping" or "knockdown" is just talk. Hit the Animal in the right place and all is good.

quote:

Originally posted by nickh:
Oz,

I'll keep my doubles in 500 or 600 for those
Early season eles in the Jess !!

Cheers

Nick

Roger that!

they are all good - as long as they aren't in a blaser

I just started a new book "Last Of The Few" by Tony Arino Sanchez. He is a man who once killed 84 buffalo on a single meat hunt, and once killed 20 elephants in an hour and 15 minutes.

As I recall, his recommendation is that for buffalo, elephants, and such you should use as "big a gun as you can shoot accurately". If that is a .375 H&H, then that is what you should shoot.

He was partial to the .375, the .416, and one of the larger big bore doubles (I forget the exact caliber).

I have always believed the .416 (either Rigby or Rem Mag) is a little better all-around DG rifle than the .375, but that is just my very limited opinion (two buff and one ellie). But again, only if you can shoot it accurately with the rifle you are using.

I think there are at least two types of safari clients; the ones who have a lot of money, but are not very experienced hunters, and the ones who have hunted big game and small game all of their lives. The latter will be able to shoot their hunting rifles accurately regardless of caliber, and the former will struggle with just about any rifle suitable for DG.

BH63

Practice,Practice,Practice!!!!

Going back to the 1950's through to the 70's , my Father (80 years old now)was an active member of the Rhodesian hunters association and been chairman for a no of years did a survey on calibers used on Buf and elephant, if my memory is correct for about 10-15 years, Archie Fraser and Willie Debeer some of the past wardens at Marongora for the whole Zambezi valley in those days

the no 1 caliber to wound and loose buf was a 375 h&h closely followed by the 458 win mag , don't get excited as those where the most popular calibers of the day and probably still are , the 400 cal rifles where the better out of the bunch , the 500 cal not so good ,

when the hunters check out from the hunt were asked questions by the warden and written down , the most single problem was and still is not enough practice with a heavy rifle , I wonder if those records are still available!! Zimbabwe

when we where farming right up until 2007 we would shoot practice at least once a month with a 308 , 9.3 x 62 ,416 Rigby & 450 x 31/4" Rigby double
firearm fit is a big factor

As Barry and Saeed stated the first shot counts
No pissing contest my Father and Archie shot(Culling Wankie) 36 elephant in one and a half minutes both of them had 450 Rigby doubles and burnt fingers (Very Hot barrels)when they had finished!!

Practice Practice Practice

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by nickh:
Oz,

I'll keep my doubles in 500 or 600 for those
Early season eles in the Jess !!

Cheers

Nick

Roger that!

+1



For all of those who do best with a "scoped 375", well ... a man has to know his limitations!!!

I have not shot as many DG animals as the rest of you have. The elephant I shot With my 375 hand loaded 350 gn solid in front of 70 gns or r15 going out at 2300 fps got great penetration of both lungs . The savanna buff is shot with 300gns barns tsx at 2600 fps could have penetrated better (quartering away shot) but did the job . If i was to do it again I would the 270 gn barns with more velocity say 2800 fps. The axiom to use the largest caliber you can shoot well with is the most important thing in my opinion. Most hunters can learn to shoot a 375 well the larger high recoil rifles I am not so sure . What kills is the penetration of vital organs with a well placed shot

Shot placement and penetration are all that matter.

Give me a accurate 6.5 or 7 with solids and I'll give you more dead stuff than you can handle skinning.

I think what it comes down to for me is the difference between shooting buffalo and hunting buffalo. If you are using an iron sighted .375 or similar iron sighted bolt gun, then you are getting the same experience as those of use who prefer an iron sighted double. For me, getting in close and making a good shot (2 actually) with a large bore double rifle is what makes my socks roll up and down. On every hunt I have been on (7 so far), I could have shot larger buffalo earlier in the hunt with my scoped .375, and I would have missed out on much of what makes the "hunt" what it is. I now hunt with Owain Lewis's Jeffery .475 No. 2 Jeffery NE double. Recall that Owain was a PH for Chifuti Safaris when he was killed following up a wounded buffalo a few years back- note, he was not carrying his double that day. Before the Jeffery double came to Owain, it was owned and used by "Pops" Du Toit, a white hunter in the early days of Rhodesia. For those interested, Ian Nyschens mentions Pops a few times in his book "Months of the Sun". At any rate, when I hunt buffalo or elephant with this classic double, I feel I am hunting with a piece of history, and I am keeping Owain's memory alive. It is special to me. I leave on 6 September for a buffalo / tuskless hunt in the Save Conservancy. I am bringing a scoped .375 along with my .17HMR, but the rifle I will be carrying for the big stuff is Owain's double.

Tourist to New Yorker: How do I get to Carnegie Hall?

New Yorker: Practice!

I agree with Saeed except I'd use a .30 caliber 220 grain bullet for penetration if it were legal.

I've only killed two each buffs, bull elephants, and hippos, one each with a .458 and a .375. I noticed no difference in effect except that I flinched once with the .458 and had to take follow-on shots at a hippo. (I killed it, BTW, with a 180 grain 30 caliber Nosler Partition.)

I also think a DG rifle should have a scope sight as, with low power, I think I can get on target faster than with irons due to the single sight plane. I've never stopped a charge but have killed game at 30 yards or so. Of course, the rifle has to fit.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
I just started a new book "Last Of The Few" by Tony Arino Sanchez. . . . As I recall, his recommendation is that for buffalo, elephants, and such you should use as "big a gun as you can shoot accurately".
BH63

Excellent advice!

Shoot the biggest thing you can shoot well. I can cheerfully agree that the only thing that is going to reliably fold up a buff is a CNS hit, but then again it doesn't matter much what you brain or spine-shoot a buffalo with. What about the animals that aren't hit in the CNS? That would be most of them, at least initially. Also, what about all the buffalo that aren't charging? Very few are.It matters little that all/most bullets in the brain are tied for first place if the shot isn't taken, and probably wasn't even considered.

My buffalo have been shot on 3 continents, and number 135 now. I've used a few different calibers, from the.300 RUM (bullet through the brain), .375, .416, 450 NE and most of all the .458 loaded stiff, real stiff, and fast with lighter than normal mono bullets. I like to mix things up.

Those shot in the CNS were all the same, no big surprise there. Shoulder, heart/lung animals had widely varying reactions and distances travelled. There is a lot of over-lap, and if someone wanted to conclude that they all worked he would be right. If he took a few examples he could conclude just about anything depending on which particular animals he ran into, or what he wanted to believe. Still; when the numbers started piling up for me there was no doubt that on average the big guns won out. Less distance travelled and less shots fired. Noticeable difference in visible reaction to the shot as well. Again, no big surprise.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by nickh:
Oz,

I'll keep my doubles in 500 or 600 for those
Early season eles in the Jess !!

Cheers

Nick

Roger that!

+1



For all of those who do best with a "scoped 375", well ... a man has to know his limitations!!!

Ya, funny though how the few guys commenting here who have shot the most buff (by a large margin) prefer the .375

Now I don't know Todd, maybe that's based on experience, maybe those guys are more proficient with their firearm, or maybe they're just better hunters?

Regardless, dead is dead - and I've never personally seen anything as effective overall as the .375 RUM

Shot several with Buffalo with the 9.3 with no fuss BUT to hunt them close with an open sighted big bore is imo a level up in fun.
Now with early season Ele it a Safty consideration .

quote:

Originally posted by bambazonke:
Practice,Practice,Practice!!!!

Going back to the 1950's through to the 70's , my Father (80 years old now)was an active member of the Rhodesian hunters association and been chairman for a no of years did a survey on calibers used on Buf and elephant, if my memory is correct for about 10-15 years, Archie Fraser and Willie Debeer some of the past wardens at Marongora for the whole Zambezi valley in those days

the no 1 caliber to wound and loose buf was a 375 h&h closely followed by the 458 win mag , don't get excited as those where the most popular calibers of the day and probably still are , the 400 cal rifles where the better out of the bunch , the 500 cal not so good ,

when the hunters check out from the hunt were asked questions by the warden and written down , the most single problem was and still is not enough practice with a heavy rifle , I wonder if those records are still available!! Zimbabwe

when we where farming right up until 2007 we would shoot practice at least once a month with a 308 , 9.3 x 62 ,416 Rigby & 450 x 31/4" Rigby double
firearm fit is a big factor

As Barry and Saeed stated the first shot counts
No pissing contest my Father and Archie shot(Culling Wankie) 36 elephant in one and a half minutes both of them had 450 Rigby doubles and burnt fingers (Very Hot barrels)when they had finished!!

Practice Practice Practice

Sir, it appears you and your father have experienced a lot more than I have. Please share more.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by nickh:
Oz,

I'll keep my doubles in 500 or 600 for those
Early season eles in the Jess !!

Cheers

Nick

Roger that!

+1



For all of those who do best with a "scoped 375", well ... a man has to know his limitations!!!

Todd,

Chase Bank and future ex wives tell me my limitations. Haha!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by nickh:
Oz,

I'll keep my doubles in 500 or 600 for those
Early season eles in the Jess !!

Cheers

Nick

Roger that!

+1



For all of those who do best with a "scoped 375", well ... a man has to know his limitations!!!

Ya, funny though how the few guys commenting here who have shot the most buff (by a large margin) prefer the .375

Now I don't know Todd, maybe that's based on experience, maybe those guys are more proficient with their firearm, or maybe they're just better hunters?

Regardless, dead is dead - and I've never personally seen anything as effective overall as the .375 RUM

Aaron, as Admiral Dave said, scoped 375 ... shooting buffalo. Iron sighted big bore, preferably a double ... hunting buffalo. Depends on what blows your dress up I suppose. I've killed buffalo with each method. Scoped 375, iron sighted 416 Rigby bolt, as well as several DR big bores, including your old 577NE. For me, the scoped 375, although very effective, was anticlimactic. A bit like the few here on AR that say they've hunted buff and just don't get it as it seemed like shooting a farmers cow. Reach out to 100+ yards and put him in the back of the truck. But take that DR in hand and it suddenly becomes a game of seeing how close you can get and matching wits. For me, that's hunting!!

BTW, why did you take that last lion with a bow instead of your 375 RUM? Surely, experience shows the 375 RUM is more effective? Surely it wasn't because you were looking for an additional challenge or more fulfilling hunting experience?

There we go again!

"I am a hunter"
"You are a shooter"

Hunt anyway Way you wish.

Use a scope, use open sights, use a bow and arrow, use a bloody spear.

Hunt with your bare hands!

What right have YOU got in telling people how to hunt??

Has anyone here gotten a patent on HUNTING?

And it is ONLY their way is right?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There we go again!

"I am a hunter"
"You are a shooter"

Hunt anyway Way you wish.

Use a scope, use open sights, use a bow and arrow, use a bloody spear.

Hunt with your bare hands!

What right have YOU got in telling people how to hunt??

Has anyone here gotten a patent on HUNTING?

And it is ONLY their way is right?

Pay attention next time Saeed. I specifically stated "For me". Not "For you" or "For everyone". Prefaced by "Depends on what blows your dress up (meaning "what you prefer") Get a grip man!



Cue the Mark Sullivan / SCI bashing in 3, 2, 1 ....

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Shot several with Buffalo with the 9.3 with no fuss BUT to hunt them close with an open sighted big bore is imo a level up in fun.
Now with early season Ele it a Safty consideration .

I must say here that I have never shot anything with a 375 H&H that did not die very quickly. However I can shoot that FN Mauser 375H&H rifle like it was a .22 target rifle!

Having said that, like OZhunter, I love to get in close and shoot buffalo with a double rifle. That, to me, is simply part of the reason I hunt and that is for FUN, and I like to see how close I can get to any game I hunt regardless of what rifle or shotgun I am using. to me getting as close as I can is what I consider HUNTING to be!
....................................................................

An 8 gauge B.P. muzzle loader that's the real deal. The rest of that smokeless powder telescope sighted stuff is just a passing fad!!!!

the best rifle going is what ever you can get with you to Africa after your work your ass off and save and save to go on the hunt.

An old Rhodesian hand told me about his buffalo control hunting ridding the ranches of buffalo. His gun of choice . Drum Roll please... an FNFAL with ball ammo because he was broke and that is what he had. He said he never had a problem. When he got a little money together he went out and bought a better rifle... A bolt action with a scope in ... drum roll drum roll 308. Ammo was free and he said that made it easier to place his shots more precisely . Make the first shot count..

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There we go again!

"I am a hunter"
"You are a shooter"

Hunt anyway Way you wish.

Use a scope, use open sights, use a bow and arrow, use a bloody spear.

Hunt with your bare hands!

What right have YOU got in telling people how to hunt??

Has anyone here gotten a patent on HUNTING?

And it is ONLY their way is right?

I honestly do not understand the emotion of your post. I expressed my preference for my hunting situation - period. To each his own. I have had similar conversations with my friends who bow hunt exclusively. They get even closer and experience even more nuances and difficulties of the hunt. Heck, if I shot a bow as well as my friend Tom Nelson of The American Archer, I would probably trade in my doubles for a bow and never look back - but that is just me.

To clarify the rifles Tony Sanchez Arino stated (in "Last of the Few") he most wanted to own are:

a) .300 H&H (for plains game)
b) .375 H&H (for just about everything)
c). .416 Rigby (DG including buff)
d) .500 Jeffery (elephant stopper)

According to that book, he had personally killed 1445 buffalo and over 800 elephants, in addition to having guided others to another 500 plus buffalo.

But as almost everyone agrees, being able to shoot the rifle accurately is the most important consideration, regardless of caliber/cartridge used.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There we go again!

"I am a hunter"
"You are a shooter"

Hunt anyway Way you wish.

Use a scope, use open sights, use a bow and arrow, use a bloody spear.

Hunt with your bare hands!

What right have YOU got in telling people how to hunt??

Has anyone here gotten a patent on HUNTING?

And it is ONLY their way is right?

I honestly do not understand the emotion of your post. I expressed my preference for my hunting situation - period. To each his own. I have had similar conversations with my friends who bow hunt exclusively. They get even closer and experience even more nuances and difficulties of the hunt. Heck, if I shot a bow as well as my friend Tom Nelson of The American Archer, I would probably trade in my doubles for a bow and never look back - but that is just me.

Admiral, Saeed is deadly with that 375 wildcat he uses, and I would no way tell him how to hunt anything.

That being said I understand you never told him how to hunt either, and what he is referring to is the guys who do tell other the way they hunt is wrong.

Saeed loves to place a bullet perfect at several hundred yards, and he often does just that. I too like being able to place my shots at long distance as well, but also like getting in close with buffalo and taking him with one of my doubles, and I also used to hunt with a bow as well, so there is no way to hunt that is wrong as long as one follows the game laws. I think that is what Saeed is trying to get across, nothing more!

.................................................................

A large calibre double gives you more margin for error and produces enough shock to stun or disable a large animal. That is my theory.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There we go again!

"I am a hunter"
"You are a shooter"

Hunt anyway Way you wish.

Use a scope, use open sights, use a bow and arrow, use a bloody spear.

Hunt with your bare hands!

What right have YOU got in telling people how to hunt??

Has anyone here gotten a patent on HUNTING?

And it is ONLY their way is right?

I honestly do not understand the emotion of your post. I expressed my preference for my hunting situation - period. To each his own. I have had similar conversations with my friends who bow hunt exclusively. They get even closer and experience even more nuances and difficulties of the hunt. Heck, if I shot a bow as well as my friend Tom Nelson of The American Archer, I would probably trade in my doubles for a bow and never look back - but that is just me.

Admiral, Saeed is deadly with that 375 wildcat he uses, and I would no way tell him how to hunt anything.

That being said I understand you never told him how to hunt either, and what he is referring to is the guys who do tell other the way they hunt is wrong.

Saeed loves to place a bullet perfect at several hundred yards, and he often does just that. I too like being able to place my shots at long distance as well, but also like getting in close with buffalo and taking him with one of my doubles, and I also used to hunt with a bow as well, so there is no way to hunt that is wrong as long as one follows the game laws. I think that is what Saeed is trying to get across, nothing more!

.................................................................

Thanks for the thoughtful clarification

The best caliber, the best rifle, the best way to hunt, the best boot, the best safari clothes, the best scope, the best bullet, the best airline, the best etc etc. I have been involved in each of those discussions at one point or another.

Hopefully one day we have meaningful discussion on the best conservation practices and the best way to prevent further loss of our hunting rights.