quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by nickh:
Oz,

I'll keep my doubles in 500 or 600 for those
Early season eles in the Jess !!

Cheers

Nick

Roger that!

+1



For all of those who do best with a "scoped 375", well ... a man has to know his limitations!!!

Ya, funny though how the few guys commenting here who have shot the most buff (by a large margin) prefer the .375

Now I don't know Todd, maybe that's based on experience, maybe those guys are more proficient with their firearm, or maybe they're just better hunters?

Regardless, dead is dead - and I've never personally seen anything as effective overall as the .375 RUM

Aaron, as Admiral Dave said, scoped 375 ... shooting buffalo. Iron sighted big bore, preferably a double ... hunting buffalo. Depends on what blows your dress up I suppose. I've killed buffalo with each method. Scoped 375, iron sighted 416 Rigby bolt, as well as several DR big bores, including your old 577NE. For me, the scoped 375, although very effective, was anticlimactic. A bit like the few here on AR that say they've hunted buff and just don't get it as it seemed like shooting a farmers cow. Reach out to 100+ yards and put him in the back of the truck. But take that DR in hand and it suddenly becomes a game of seeing how close you can get and matching wits. For me, that's hunting!!

BTW, why did you take that last lion with a bow instead of your 375 RUM? Surely, experience shows the 375 RUM is more effective? Surely it wasn't because you were looking for an additional challenge or more fulfilling hunting experience?

Todd - Who the heck is admiral Dave? I've been up close / personal to plenty of buff - ele, the gun in my hand made little difference to be honest. Ya, a bow is a whole different story - you should see all the time/effort I've put in lately (not to mention the money) to get a bow/arrows/broad head set up for buff, hippo and even elephant. So if up close / personal experience is what its all about for you - throw down the gun and grab a bow - otherwise they are really all the same.

270 or 30-06 on a higher level!!

Im middle of the road, I love the .375 H&H and perfectly comfortable with it or a 9.3x62..However Ive mostly used a 416 Rem or 404 Jefferys for no particular reason..In a double rifle I really lean towards the 450-400-3" that is so acceptable to most double rifle shooters, but is hardly more than a 375 H&H..Confusing huh! Bullet placement and bullet construction, rifle function, is the bottom line IMO..caliber is secondary..

Todd - Who the heck is admiral Dave?

Subsailor74 - Rear Admiral, US Navy (retired)

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
Todd - Who the heck is admiral Dave?

Subsailor74 - Rear Admiral, US Navy (retired)

Yep. Admiral Dave is Subsailor74. This old Navy boy always pays respects to a Senior Officer, especially an Admiral!




Aaron, I'm a bow hunter from way back! I know the prep necessary very well. I likes it!!! lol

But you made my point. A more fulfilling experience than a scoped 375 as it requires more effort and prep. Mucho Gracias Amigo!

I do seem to remember you stating in the video where you used that 577 we both previously owned, that you had no business shooting at that buff at that range with an open sighted double? Hitting him poorly, he later charged, during which you were able to turn him at the last minute. If all rifles are equal, as you now say, why the statement that you "had no business shooting a buff at that range with a double", and do you think you could have successfully turned him with the 375 since you missed the CNS? My experience is that the two rifle types are significantly NOT equal. The scoped 375 is the better weapon if shooting at a distance and the double requires a bit more effort to be proficient with (but not as much as a bow), and requires a bit different hunting technique as in getting closer (but again, not as much as the bow).

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
Todd - Who the heck is admiral Dave?

Subsailor74 - Rear Admiral, US Navy (retired)

Is there any other way refer to subsailor74 other than admiral

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
Todd - Who the heck is admiral Dave?

Subsailor74 - Rear Admiral, US Navy (retired)

Yep. Admiral Dave is Subsailor74. This old Navy boy always pays respects to a Senior Officer, especially an Admiral!




Aaron, I'm a bow hunter from way back! I know the prep necessary very well. I likes it!!! lol

But you made my point. A more fulfilling experience than a scoped 375 as it requires more effort and prep. Mucho Gracias Amigo!

I do seem to remember you stating in the video where you used that 577 we both previously owned, that you had no business shooting at that buff at that range with an open sighted double? Hitting him poorly, he later charged, during which you were able to turn him at the last minute. If all rifles are equal, as you now say, why the statement that you "had no business shooting a buff at that range with a double", and do you think you could have successfully turned him with the 375 since you missed the CNS? My experience is that the two rifle types are significantly NOT equal. The scoped 375 is the better weapon if shooting at a distance and the double requires a bit more effort to be proficient with (but not as much as a bow), and requires a bit different hunting technique as in getting closer (but again, not as much as the bow).

My issues had nothing to do with the gun, and all about the shooting / decision to shoot of the "shooter".

Just going hunting - I would prefer my scoped rifle. If any trouble was possibly in the air - I would prefer the .577 double in my hands. Overall now - I would prefer hunting with the bow, but I'll always be a gun hunter too.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
[QUOTE So if up close / personal experience is what its all about for you - throw down the gun and grab a bow - otherwise they are really all the same.

Man that like saying one lion hunt is the same as the next.
Don't event want to get into a discussion on those hi tech Stick flinging contraptions...

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:
The best caliber, the best rifle, the best way to hunt, the best boot, the best safari clothes, the best scope, the best bullet, the best airline, the best etc etc. I have been involved in each of those discussions at one point or another.

Hopefully one day we have meaningful discussion on the best conservation practices and the best way to prevent further loss of our hunting rights.

The opening story was not really about the best caliber, but about the fact that many people overgun themselves beyond the point where they can be proficient with their rifle.

The observation basically meant that many people wielding heavy calibers simply did not make good shots.

The fact that the discussion goes back to "the best caliber" just shows that the point has difficulties sinking in...

The truth of the matter is that to be fully confident in your rifle, to know it so intimately that it becomes an extension of your arm, and that you can hit exactly what you want to hit under field conditions, one needs to shoot hundreds or preferably thousands of rounds through it - and in most cases that is simply not possible with the heavier calibers.

I, for one, have been shooting for fifty years, half of them with big bores. Yet, I have to confess one little thing: I derive no pleasure from shoothing a dozen rounds of .458. If I want to have fun with a rifle, if I want to put 100 rounds downrange and at all sorts of targets, in all sorts of positions, I grab a much smaller caliber, and a much lighter gun. Guess which of the two I would take if I had to make sure of pinpoint accuracy under any circumstances, regardless of the "whack factor"?

One problem is that over the years the accent has been shifted from "make your shot count" to "make your shot so big that it counts for itself"...

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
Todd - Who the heck is admiral Dave?

Subsailor74 - Rear Admiral, US Navy (retired)

Salute.

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
One problem is that over the years the accent has been shifted from "make your shot count" to "make your shot so big that it counts for itself"...

Actually, I would have said the trend is to go lighter and faster over the years..
I don't shoot thousands of rounds but I'd go as far as to say I can shoot my big bore rifles (in field situations up to 80m) just as good as my "go to" Blaser. Which I can use pretty well. Naturally the scoped light and fast calibre Blaser is a much more accurate shooting rifle beyond that distance from a rest.

Another thing Tony Sanchez Arino was most adamant about was that for a proper elephant or buffalo stopper gun you need as minimum:

a) 400 grain bullet
c) 2000 fps MV
d) 4000 ftlb ME

These minimums have to be balanced to ensure proper penetration. I just read a story of where someone trying brain shots on elephants with a .577 Tyrannosaurus, had two failures in a row due to inadequate penetration. Apparently the rounds did not meet the published velocity, and hence the lack of penetration.

The .458 Win Mag had a horrible reputation with many of the old PHs when it first came out, due to "downloaded" factory cartridges (apparently done to help prevent the problem of stocks splitting on the old, original Winchester Safari M70s).

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

The .458 Win Mag had a horrible reputation with many of the old PHs when it first came out, due to "downloaded" factory cartridges (apparently done to help prevent the problem of stocks splitting on the old, original Winchester Safari M70s).

BH63

As usual I am somewhat confused. I thought if you slowed a 45 caliber bullet down to say 45-70 velocity it would penetrate through a buffalo stem to stern. I guess a 510 grain (I believe that was the weight on the old factory ammo) 45 caliber bullet fired from a 458 Winchester at lower velocity will not penetrate as well as a 500 grain bullet fired from a 45-70 at the same velocity as the 458 Winchester. (Sarcasm about the 45-70 intended)

I think Tony Sanchez Arino put it best: "If a buffalo decides to have a go at you, you can never have too much gun."

IMO there is a big difference between a caliber/cartridge combination that can kill a buffalo, and a caliber/cartridge combination that can stop a buffalo.

Because as PHC once stated "With buffalo, you just never know."

BH63

My preference for a buff rifle is a 500NE double or a 458 Lott bolt rifle.Both shoot big 550gr or more softs with plenty of velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

The .458 Win Mag had a horrible reputation with many of the old PHs when it first came out, due to "downloaded" factory cartridges (apparently done to help prevent the problem of stocks splitting on the old, original Winchester Safari M70s).

BH63

As usual I am somewhat confused. I thought if you slowed a 45 caliber bullet down to say 45-70 velocity it would penetrate through a buffalo stem to stern. I guess a 510 grain (I believe that was the weight on the old factory ammo) 45 caliber bullet fired from a 458 Winchester at lower velocity will not penetrate as well as a 500 grain bullet fired from a 45-70 at the same velocity as the 458 Winchester. (Sarcasm about the 45-70 intended)

I always was told that the problem with the early .458 ammo was 'clumping' of the power when seating the bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:

The .458 Win Mag had a horrible reputation with many of the old PHs when it first came out, due to "downloaded" factory cartridges (apparently done to help prevent the problem of stocks splitting on the old, original Winchester Safari M70s).

BH63

As usual I am somewhat confused. I thought if you slowed a 45 caliber bullet down to say 45-70 velocity it would penetrate through a buffalo stem to stern. I guess a 510 grain (I believe that was the weight on the old factory ammo) 45 caliber bullet fired from a 458 Winchester at lower velocity will not penetrate as well as a 500 grain bullet fired from a 45-70 at the same velocity as the 458 Winchester. (Sarcasm about the 45-70 intended)

I always was told that the problem with the early .458 ammo was 'clumping' of the power when seating the bullet?

Andrew is correct! Like everyone else, when the mod 70 came out with the 458 Win Mag chambering, I rushed down to the gun store and bought one! Like everyone else I thought finally a serious big bore from an American maker.

It was a while before anyone was making loading dies for this cartridge so I was forced to use factory ammo.

The rifle worked fine for about a half box of 20 rounds. Then I went stump shooting to just get used to the rifle and chambering. The first time I got any indication of the hang fires and squib loads it was when I fired the last rounds in the magazine. I had been snap shooting everything from rocks to Yuca plants, and when I got down to last round that had been riding in the bottom with several shots fired with it in the bottom of the magazine. That round barely got out of the muzzle. I was perplexed but couldn’t figure it out. Later I found that others had the same problem. It was later found that the powder used filled the case too full and when the bottom round was fired after several rounds had been fired before the bottom round the powder in that round had the bullet moved back enough to cause the powder to cake up and only half of the powder had burned, hence the sqib load. I immediately sold that rifle! Later a friend found that if a 400 gr bullet was used with IMR3031 powder they no longer got the sqib loads.
However today we have better powders that work well in the 458 Win Mag with the 500 gr bullets, and today there are no flies on the old 458 Win Mag. Just one point of view!
...................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by nickh:
Oz,

I'll keep my doubles in 500 or 600 for those
Early season eles in the Jess !!

Cheers

Nick

Roger that!

+1



For all of those who do best with a "scoped 375", well ... a man has to know his limitations!!!

I dare to believe that lightweight .375 that Aaron shoots kicks harder than a heavy and nicely balanced .577 or .600

The best buff gun differs from person to person and from situation to situation. Some people are sh#t scared of big bore rifles and won't admit it. Some have the bigger is better attitude even if they can't shoot it. Hell, some of are scare of relatively small bore rifles.

Personally, I prefer a 416. I can shoot my own 416 better than I can either of my 375's. The only time I use my double (500NE) is in really thick stuff.

I did learn that my relatively low powered scope on my 416 didn't cut it any more on my aging eyes in 2006 in TZ. I had to change the scope.

For me, my .416 Rem. Mag. with a 1-5 Z6i is ideal. It's a bit heavy for caliber, but that makes it a real pussycat to shoot. Penetration has always been great with premium bullets -- I'm partial to Swift Aframes. The Z6 is the perfect scope for the task. Enough magnification under any circumstances and crank it down to a true 1X with the daytime illumination and you effectively have a red dot. Every bit as quick as irons for anyone and faster for old eyes.

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:


I dare to believe that lightweight .375 that Aaron shoots kicks harder than a heavy and nicely balanced .577 or .600

Might want to check your references! Your not even close.


8.75 lb 375 Ultra Mag 53.2 ft/lbs recoil energy

12.0 lb 577NE 127.5 ft/lbs recoil energy

For that matter 12.0 lbs 500NE 74.5 ft/lbs recoil energy.

12 lbs for a 577 is a bit light. Mine (the same one Aaron owed prior to my purchasing it) weighed 12.5 lbs.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Todd, no doubt "more bite" to the user than the big bore user.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Todd, no doubt "more bite" to the user than the big bore user.

Adam, my 500NE from VC tips the scales at 10.25 lbs!!

But this is all off topic as to what makes a great buffalo gun.

My original comment was tongue in cheek and actually had only a small amount to do with recoil tolerance. As you well know from your DR experiences, hunting with an open sighted two pipe is just a different ball game than a scoped 375.

I've hunted and killed buffalo with both rifle types. I find the scoped 375 to be very effective ... to the point of being anti-climatic. 100 yards or more, no problem. Get a solid rest and whack away! I'd rather shoot deer or plains game by that method.

Open sighted DR, like bow hunting, but not to the same extreme, put your sneaky sneak skills to the test and get in close! I just prefer the up close and personal stuff, again, after having experienced both methods.

Some guys are happy to jump out of the back of the cruiser right out of camp and start busting caps. For my hunting dollars, I like a bit more to the experience than that. I've gone home twice from a buff hunt with a DR, and without a buff. But damn if we didn't have a great time hunting!!!

Todd, with that hunting attatude your most welcome in my hunting camp

Todd, I like that too. Brian

quote:

Is there any other way refer to subsailor74 other than admiral Cool

Not in my Navy!

When a hunter arrived in camp with a .375 on an elephant hunt , we all shifted our attention up a notch , and most wounded hunts stemmed from this caliber, but for a buffalo it was ok until we had to follow up in thick bush , then as Mr Baldry ses the trackers would ask for the big guns to come with , by the looks on the face of wounded buffalo hunters I would also say most if not all wished they had a bigger gun for the occasion.

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
By the looks on the face of wounded buffalo hunters I would also say most if not all wished they had a bigger gun for the occasion.

They should'a wished they had hit the buffalo in the right place instead, so there wouldn't be a wounded buffalo to follow in the thick with big guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
By the looks on the face of wounded buffalo hunters I would also say most if not all wished they had a bigger gun for the occasion.

They should'a wished they had hit the buffalo in the right place instead, so there wouldn't be a wounded buffalo to follow in the thick with big guns.

Should'a, coulda, woulda but hunting is rarely a so perfect sequence .

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
By the looks on the face of wounded buffalo hunters I would also say most if not all wished they had a bigger gun for the occasion.

They should'a wished they had hit the buffalo in the right place instead, so there wouldn't be a wounded buffalo to follow in the thick with big guns.

Should'a, coulda, woulda but hunting is rarely a so perfect sequence .

Very true!

That is why we take hunting as it comes.

We were on our last hunting day, and we still had one buffalo left on quota.

We were hunting Chete in Zimbabwe, at the end of the season.

We saw a few bulls across the river feeding. I fired a shot at one, hit him, and he took off.

He stopped, looking back with a quartering angle to our right.

I was resting my elbows on my knees, no other rest.

Took another shot at him at 300 yards.

He staggered and fell down.

We could not cross the river, too deep and too many crocs!

Went back to camp, got into a boat, and went back to get our buffalo.

First shot took both lungs, but that did not stop him running
Second shot went through the top of his heart.

375/404 and Barnes 300 grain X bullets.

Killed buffalo with it from about 7 yards to over 330 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

All of the talk about "stopping" or "knockdown" is just talk. Hit the Animal in the right place and all is good.

Sorry, can't agree with this.
When we talk about stopping power, we do not refer to the first shot on the animal.An animal does need to be stopped. He is in a relaxed state.

Stopping power comes into play, when an animal is full of adrenaline, on a full charge and when you DON'T hit him in the right place.
When the force from a heavy bullet at a respectable velocity is so much that you can stun an animal on a charge, giving you enough time for your second barrel or time to cycle the bolt.

When it comes to DG rifles that are used by my hunters, I have not seen many rifles, have the effect on Buff as my .375H&H firing 200gr GSC bullets at around 3200fps does.
They are absolutely devastating on Buff and there is a clear reaction that they have to the high velocity and they don't like it very much.

Interesting conversation. I learned something about the history of the .458 Win, and hopefully some people realized the difference between a "stopping" gun as opposed to a gun adequate enough to "effectively kill the animal".

As a kid I worked in a slaughter house. The weapon used to kill cattle consisted of a .22 single shot rifle. A single brain shot to stun the animal, and then a quick stab to the throat killed the animals fairly efficiently. Once however, a new guy missed the brain and the steer went berserk, breaking out of the killing chute and running amok, scaring the heck out of the ladies up front cutting meat. After a lot of excitement and a lot of broken equipment the animal was finally put down.

I once read a story about a woman who killed a black bear with a .22 rifle. She was in a cabin and the bear kept trying to get in. She shot it several times, before the bear finally expired, so a small caliber is better than nothing.

But I still believe if you can't shoot a big bore competently, you probably shouldn't be hunting elephants or buffalo. JMO.

BH63

There is a significant difference between a calibre adequate to kill quickly and cleanly with a well placed shot and a "stopper" or back up rifle

I stopped my first full on buffalo charge using a 375 H&H with what i would call a lucky shot at 7 yards. As much as i would like to say i placed the bullet precisely where i wanted in a calm manner it was anything but that. It was more like slow motion panic,find the intended place to put the shot, focus on the front bead and pull the trigger. It truly was slow motion mayhem and a lucky shot that piled up the buffalo. On that day i realised i needed a rifle that would allow for a margin of error on my part.Shortly thereafter i carried a 458 Lott as my daily back up gun, shot placement is still critical but i believe the bigger calibre may just buy me a few more seconds on the day when the chips fall against me