quote:

What is the chance of a doubling .600NE breaking a shoulder or worse? Thanks.

OR, Detaching one or both retinas. Much worse than a shoulder injury and harder to repair. A number of shooting writers have had detachments after years of shooting big bores. A doubled 600 could do it all at once!

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
Just to correct an error, but the entire statement is correct if you read it closely. I said that I disagreed with you totally on the subject, and that is a completely true.

:=)

Sorry I correct myself!
The whole statement I now quoted in bold above from your post,in that regard you are absolutely correct that part is absolutely true! HAPPY?



One more truth: I totally disagree with everything you wrote in your origenal post except the add-on above in bold!
...................................

Per a PH in Africa, he said more clients double their DR's than ever admit it while on safari.

My Krieghoff O/U .458 WM doubled on me once, and it was a true double, because the shots were simultaneous and the bullet holes in the target were less than an inch apart.

Anyone who has ever shot much skeet is familiar with the BA-BOOM sound of an O/U skeet gun doubling because the gun was held too loosely and recoiled in the hand enough to reset the single trigger, which then was inadvertantly pulled when the recoil pad pushed the gun forward again.

I honestly thought the rifle had exploded and was pushed backward fast enough that my feet got tangled and I sat down in a heap, but there were no after effects, as far as bruises, lesions, or contusions were concerned.

Interestingly, when a firearm doubles, the recoil energy is four times, not twice as great, since the energy varies with the square of the velocity of the weapon, and the weight of the weapon remains the same, while the weight of the bullet is doubled, so that, instead of shooting a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps, I was shooting a 1000 grain bullet at the same velocity. This means the recoil velocity is two times as great, and the square of two is four.

I, for one, can confirm it.

xausa, you lost me on that one. I've seen this referred to elsewhere so it is probably correct but I'm not of a scientific mind, so to speak, as I didn't study physics. If I'm wrong, I certainly will accept being so. I say this as I don't profess to know the answer here but:

I agree that energy varies with the square of velocity but you are not doubling the velocity when a rifle "doubles". You are only doubling the mass that is being fired at the same velocity. Can you give more info on this subject for me to contemplate.

Thanks.

Meanwhile...

Doubling on heavy recoilig guns aside from mechanical problems is always a result of operator error!

Usually the culprit is that the gun does not fit properly (too short), or is not properly mounted and it moves excessively on recoil, thus the shooters finger inadvertently slides back and "fans" the second trigger.

Another culprit that I have witnessed is the shooter putting a finger on both triggers at the same time!

Folks, shooting double trigger guns is a bit of a black art. I still shoot live pigeons with a DT gun and after shooting tens of thousands of heavy loads over the years have learned that gun fit is CRITICAL for heavy recoiling DT guns.

quote:

Originally posted by RobinOLocksley:

quote:

A doubling .500NE is not fun to watch, and I've seen it several times and have pictures of the strumming to prove poor technique.

I would really like to see those photos.Is it too much to ask to post them?Thank you.

Best-
Locksley,R.

Trying to get Ghostbird to post the pictures he took at my double rifle shoot last March. If he can get them up, you'll see the strumming of the rear trigger no doubt.

Mike

The only time a double rifle should be fired with the left trigger first is in a gun that is a true lefty double rifle, where the left trigger is in front of the right trigger, and in which the gun was regulated to shoot left barrel first, and then right barrel.

Right hand DR's are regulated to shoot right first/ then left barrel. Any other claim as to proper technique is mis-guided.

No DR should have the front trigger at 1.5 lbs. 3 lbs. is the minimum, with 3.5/4 lbs for the rear trigger.

If a sear is worn and is causing the gun to double, then it needs to be fixed or retired.

The habit of firing the rear trigger first is most times the result of fear; the fear that one might screw up and cause the gun to double.

Poor technique is almost always the cause of doubling. I've done it, it's no fun, but it was my fault, completely.

If doubling can occur with accomplished hunters like Bodd, Jines, and others, think what the chances are in folks who just purchase a double and are off on safari with it for the first time.

quote:

Originally posted by impala#03:
Why do you think the rifle doubled? Does the trigger finger accidently hit the second trigger during recoil, or is the recoil so violent it trips the sear on the second barrel?

Tony explains what happened or at least his opinion. When he was sighting in, the left barrel was spot on whilst the right barrel was about 2" low and right so his PH Johann Calitz suggested he fire the left barrel first for a more precise shot. He did that and the gun doubled. Since firing the left or rear trigger eliminates the probability of "strumming", his conclusion was the fact the right (or front) trigger has a much lighter release and the recoil set it off. Makes sense to me. BTW, this never happened with my Sabbati sorry, couldn't resist. jorge

I'd proffer-up that a flinch had something to do with this.

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I agree that energy varies with the square of velocity but you are not doubling the velocity when a rifle "doubles". You are only doubling the mass that is being fired at the same velocity. Can you give more info on this subject for me to contemplate.

Thanks.

Sorry for the confusion, but I was referring to the recoil velocity, not the velocity of the bullet.

Recoil velocity equals the momentum (the weight of the ejecta times the velocity) divided by the weight of the gun. The velocity of the recoil squared divided by two times the acceleration of gravity (64.32 fps) gives the recoil energy. (Small Arms Desigh and Ballistics, by Townsend Whelen, Volume II, pages 53-4)

If the weight of the ejecta (bullet and powder) are doubled, as in the case of a double discharge, then the momentum is doubled, and since the weight of the gun remains the same, then the velocity of recoil is also doubled.

Since the velocity of recoil is squared and divided by a constant to obtain recoil energy, the recoil energy is quadrupled.

Yes, doubling increases recoil energy by a factor of four.

If anyone cares to do it longhand, the formula for calculating the free recoil energy of a rifle is as follows:

RE = (½ x (RW/GC)) x (((BW x BMV) + (PW x PGV)) ÷ (RW x 7000))^2

Where:

RE = Free recoil energy in foot-pounds.
RW = Rifle weight in pounds
GC = 32.174 (the gravitational constant for earth in feet per second per second)
BW = Bullet weight in grains
BMV = Muzzle velocity of bullet in feet per second
PW = Powder weight in grains
PGV = 4,700 (a generally – although not universally - accepted constant for powder gas velocity in feet per second)
7000 = Number of grains per pound
^2 means "squared"

So, for a 13 pound .600 NE rifle firing a 900 grain bullet ahead of 160 grains of powder at 1,950 fps, recoil energy would be calculated as follows:

RE = (½ x (13 ÷ 32.174)) x (((900 x 1,950) + (160 x 4,700)) ÷ (13 x 7000))^2
RE = (½ x 0.4041) x ((1,755,000 + 752,000) ÷ 91,000)^2
RE = 0.2021 x (2,507,000 ÷ 91,000)^2
RE = 0.2021 x 27.55^2
RE = 0.2021 x 759.00
RE = 153 ft.-lbs.

On the other hand, if a 13 pound .600 NE rifle were to double, firing two 900 grain bullets (or 1,800 grains of bullet weight) ahead of two loads of 160 grains of powder (equaling 320 grains of powder) at 1,950 fps, the recoil energy would be calculated as follows:

RE = (½ x (13 ÷ 32.174)) x (((1,800 x 1,950) + (320 x 4,700)) ÷ (13 x 7000))^2
RE = (½ x 0.4041) x ((3,510,000 + 1,504,000) ÷ 91,000)^2
RE = 0.2021 x (5,014,000 ÷ 91,000)^2
RE = 0.2021 x 55.10^2
RE = 0.2021 x 3,036.01
RE = 614 ft.-lbs.

Or, in simplest terms: Doubling a .600 NE = OUCH!

Yeeee Haaaa.

I love seeing math like that, very cool.

I learned something new, I have never fired a double rifle in my life and always, wrongly, just thought you had index on first trigger and middle on rear trigger. obviously if I'd thought about it more I would have realized that grip wise that wouldn't work, I guess I was so focused on how lovely they are I didn't give much thought to shooting one.

However, I just purchased a 54 million dollar lottery ticket, everybody hope I win and I'll immediately buy a very nice double rifle to learn with.

Red

Just to add a little more background. Tony Makris was the shooter and he was firing a Shuyler(sp) double manufactured in 1910 or 1911 and as far as he knew the only 600NE that that particular gun maker had ever produced. He was using it just for the show and it is NOT a firearm that probably any of us would alter in any way (or use much) if any of us possessed it.
The cameraman got a great shot from behind and slightly to Tony's right, sighting down the barrels with the elephant in the background. He paid for that shot when the barrels hit him as Tony was propelled onto his rear!
BTW he said that the 600NE fires a 920gr bullet so you can figure out what kind of recoil results from launching 1840gr at about 2100fps

I'll have to remember to NOT double my 600NE double when I line up that elephant in a bit over a month's time.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
My Krieghoff O/U .458 WM doubled on me once, and it was a true double, because the shots were simultaneous and the bullet holes in the target were less than an inch apart.

NOW! That is a true doubleing. A double discharge was caused by a malfunction in the rifle it's self. A double discharge by strumming is different in the respect that the bullets fired is a one then two sequence, the second shot will always be higher and unless very close may even be a miss all together! The strumming type of double discharge is not hard on the rifle, but a true simultaneous double IS very hard on the rifle! Because everything is quadrupled when fired simultaneously.

quote:

Anyone who has ever shot much skeet is familiar with the BA-BOOM sound of an O/U skeet gun doubling because the gun was held too loosely and recoiled in the hand enough to reset the single trigger, which then was inadvertantly pulled when the recoil pad pushed the gun forward again.

I honestly thought the rifle had exploded and was pushed backward fast enough that my feet got tangled and I sat down in a heap, but there were no after effects, as far as bruises, lesions, or contusions were concerned.

The above recoil pad recoil causing a BA-Boom double discharge is something I never thought about with a single trigger! My youngest son fired my single trigger Krieghoff O/U shotgun when he was about nine years old and got a double discharge with the single trigger. That doubleing with a single trigger has perplexed me 30 years, as to the cause! When it happened I disassembled the shotgun action to see of there was something wrong inside, and found nothing wrong. I had shot the gun hundreds of times before that, and did so thousands of time after, and it never happened again. The only thing I can think of is my son was fairly small and the length of pull was too long for him. Xausa, just turned on the light, with his post above! Your never too old to learn new things, it seems!

…………………………………………………………...................................

I am just no help here as in using double rifles for over 30 years, I have never had a double discharge.

465H&H

Been thinking about this doubling thing for a few days. Since the formula for Free Recoil Energy was posted, I'm thinking maybe there is something more to the equation, such as time.

For instance, if the double discharge occurs without delay, I agree the formula would apply. But with a 2 second delay between the discharges, we have 2 independent firings so it therefore would not.

My question is, at what point do we no longer have a doubling of the rifle (and thereby quadrupling the recoil energy). At 2 milliseconds between the discharges? 20 milliseconds, 100 milliseconds, etc.

Am I all wet on this or do I just have too much time on my hands to think about things that don't matter?

quote:

I am just no help here as in using double rifles for over 30 years, I have never had a double discharge.

I'm 48 and it's been a while since I've had a "double discharge" too!!!

(sorry guys, couldn't resist)

Never had a DR double on me either!

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:

quote:

I am just no help here as in using double rifles for over 30 years, I have never had a double discharge.

I'm 48 and it's been a while since I've had a "double discharge" too!!!

(sorry guys, couldn't resist)

Never had a DR double on me either!

Just wait till you are experiencing your 75th year, and you'll be lucky to have discharges one at a time!

.......................... Believe that!!!!

I wonder about the trigger pull weight on the rifles of those experiencing double discharges.I would expect a trigger pull heavier and stiff on a double than a bolt rifle.

If I remember correctly, Hemingway once complained that the trigger pull on a double rifle he was using was "like the last turn of a sardine can key."

You would have to be old enough to remember when sardines came in cans with keys to appreciate that simile, however.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I am just no help here as in using double rifles for over 30 years, I have never had a double discharge.

465H&H

Since I posted the above, I have been wondering why I haven't had any problems with doubling while others do. On a right hand double why is the left trigger farther to the left than the front trigger? The obvious answer is that if it was directly behind the front trigger strumming would be much more likely. So it seems to me that since the end of the finger wouldn't be the part contacting the rear trigger, it must be the pad of the trigger finger between the third finger joint and the knuckle must be the offending part. I use the middle of the pad of the trigger finger between the finger tip and the first joint to contact the trigger. Others often use the crease of the first joint to contact the trigger. This moves my finger at least 1/2" further away from the rear trigger, thus reducing the possibility of it contacting the rear trigger unintentionally.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
My question is, at what point do we no longer have a doubling of the rifle (and thereby quadrupling the recoil energy). At 2 milliseconds between the discharges? 20 milliseconds, 100 milliseconds, etc.

My guess would be that as long as both bullets are in the barrels at the same time, it would qualify as a double.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
My question is, at what point do we no longer have a doubling of the rifle (and thereby quadrupling the recoil energy). At 2 milliseconds between the discharges? 20 milliseconds, 100 milliseconds, etc.

My guess would be that as long as both bullets are in the barrels at the same time, it would qualify as a double.

Would both bullets be in the barrels at the same time if you strummed the rear trigger. And what happens if the first bullet is just about to leave the barrel when the second one goes off, thereby the rifle is only doubled for a fraction of the time and thereby only a portion of the quadrupled energy is transferred into recoil?

Theoretical rifle with 100 ft/lbs free recoil energy. Right barrel fires and bullet is in the last 1 inch of the right barrel when the left barrel fires. Shooter experiences 400 ft/lbs of recoil but if the bullet from the right barrel is 1 inch out of the barrel when the left barrel fires, the shooter experiences 100 ft/lbs of recoil? Somehow this doesn't sound right to me.

I still think there is a time component to this equation that is missing. Forget the shoulder, this makes my head hurt!

I missed this thread until now. That incident with the .600 is the first time I've ever "doubled" a double rifle. It just plain knocked me silly, and I've had periodic shoulder issues ever since. I have no idea whether it was a mechanical double (failure) or if I did it by hitting the second trigger. The latter is always the most likely, especially in this instance: I haven't shot a .600 much, and there's a lot more recoil than the .450-.500 class I'm used to. Also, since I'm left-handed, most doubles I shoot, including this one, are set up for right-handers (front trigger, right barrel, trigger offset to the right; rear trigger, left barrel, trigger offset to the left. While I'm used to this configuration, the unfamiliar recoil of the .600 might have gotten me. The rifle is relatively new, but not mine...I can assure I didn't try it again to see if it was my fault or the rifle's!
The fastest and "preferred" way to shoot a double with two triggers should be front trigger first, rear trigger second...but some guys have a real problem with "strumming" the trigger (a very good word). If it happens more than a couple of times, the only cure I know of is to reverse the procedure, shooting the rear trigger first. Not quite as fast, but it's impossible to inadvertantly double the rifle that way. I am still shooting front trigger first, but I'm pretty much done with the ultra big bores. My shoulder still isn't quite right!
Cheers, C

Craig,

Thanks for that honest and relevant reply. But that's what we expect from you.

Mike

I wanted to follow up with just a little bit about shooting a double rifle from the wrong side. Last week, I had a customer from CA who wanted to buy a Merkel 140-2 in .500NE with a left hand stock. But he wanted me to shoot it before he committed to make sure it was well regulated.

I shot it 7 times, noticeably felt the recoil, but shot it well. It was shooting great groups 2" right and 3" low using factory Hornady ammo. The customer wanted to use that ammo. I sent the gun down to Herbert at Merkel, he installed a new front sight and adjusted the rear sight and got it shooting perfect with that ammo.

The damn thing about it is I have a massive black/blue shoulder bruise from shooting that gun.

I've shot .500's and .470's before, with never a problem. But this left stocked gun ruined my shoulder. Can't quite explain it. But I was out of action for about 6 days from shooting.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Yes, doubling increases recoil energy by a factor of four ...

Or, in simplest terms: Doubling a .600 NE = OUCH!

Absolutely true, and MR's math proves it.
But recoil velocity was not mentioned.
A simple way to think of it is that the recoil velocity of the rifle is doubled by the double discharge.

Prove it with more math or just plug a double bullet weight and a double powder charge into a recoil calculator.

Recoil energy quadruples and recoil velocity doubles. OUCH!

Recoil energy is proportional to the square of the recoil velocity. It is just kinetic energy, 1/2 times the rifle mass times rifle velocity squared, KE = 1/2(MV)^2

The same mass of rifle traveling at twice the speed will have "two-sguared" or four times the recoil energy.

So to get the full speed, it has to be near instantaneous doubling.
But a slight delay between the discharges, fractional second or milliseconds, will not delay the impulse added to the moving rifle by much.

It is still going to be close to double the recoil velocity and quadruple the recoil energy of a single discharge.

Hello RIP. I was actually enjoying this thread and am glad you brought it back up. I threw out these timing questions not to start crap with anyone, I just find the topic interesting from a theory standpoint. For the record, I have never doubled a rifle either.

What interested me was that although the recoil energy can be proven with the formula given, I still think there is a timing issue involved that is not covered by the formula as it wasn't written to cover 2 independent discharges occurring simultaneously but rather 1 discharge only. My question is theoretical and maybe not practical but at the heart of it, I'm asking how much delay between pulling the first trigger and the second has to occur to prevent receiving quadruple recoil energy. Actually, I think I just have too much time to think about topics that don't matter.

But again, when xausa says "My guess would be that as long as both bullets are in the barrels at the same time, it would qualify as a double" or when you say that "a slight delay will not delay the impulse by much" or "it is still going to be close to double the recoil velocity and quadruple the recoil energy", we move away from the absolute of the mathematical equation and into opinion.

I wonder if there is a refinement of the mathematical formula that would take the timing delay between barrels into account? Again, the formula addresses one discharge incident, not two identical incidents at ALMOST the same time. My degree is in Computer Science not Physics. But Computer Science, at least computer languages was primarily about logic and I'm just trying to find the logical and provable point at which firing the two barrels becomes 2 individual incidents as opposed to 1.

I doubt many will be interested in pursuing this question very far, if at all, so forgive me for dragging it on. I just find the discussion interesting.

Cheers!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Or, in simplest terms: Doubling a .600 NE = OUCH!

Indeed! That said I'd try running your calculations with the rifle at 15-16lbs rather than 13. That's a bit light for a .600.

Brett

Todd,
This is not opinion, it is simple physics and pure math!
Maybe rocket surgery.

The single discharge has a certain amount of impulse, like a rocket.
Impulse is measured in units of pound-seconds or newton-seconds.
Impulse is the integral of a force (thrust) with respect to time.
That is calculus.

If the rifle hung motionless in a zero-gravity vacuum, relative to the observer (that's Relativity,
then the time between the double discharges would not matter.

The first discharge would accelerate the rifle to X velocity (recoil velocity) and the rifle would then possess Y kinetic energy (recoil energy),
coasting along forever like that, unless 1 millisecond or one millenium later the second load fired off and then that same certain amount of impulse would add to velocity,
making it 2X, and recoil energy (or Kinetic Energy) would become 4Y.

If a shooter has the gun tightly to his shoulder and is hanging on, the rifle will be decelerated to some degree, as soon as it starts accelerating in recoil.

The rifle must stop accelerating as soon as powder gas and bullet mass have left the barrel.
The decelerating forces will require integration of complex functions with respect to time to quantify.
This will require integrating the grip strength and shoulder resistance and yields of flesh and recoil pads.

Near impossible to precisely quantify and time.

Impulse ends as soon as the last of the ejecta (bullet and powder gas) leaves the barrel.
That takes somewhere between 1 and 2 milliseconds.

But recoil energy and velocity are already being absorbed by the shooter before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Thus peak recoil comes within 2 milliseconds.

To quadruple recoil energy, both barrels have to discharge within 2 milliseconds.

Greater time separations than that between the discharges must result in less than quadruple the recoil energy.

If the rifle is still moving rearward in recoil when the second shot goes off, then that double-discharge will produce more recoil energy than just the sum of the two separate shots.

To get the "two-squared" quadrupling effect on the kinetic energy of recoil,
then both shots must be simultaneous, unless in a zero-G vaccum.


I really do not care to analyze any further than that, else I might get a headache.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:



I really do not care to analyze any further than that, else I might get a headache.

Yeah Man, me either. I bow to your explanation. I think you agreed with me to some extent about there being a time factor involved. Like I said earlier, forget about the shoulder, this makes my head hurt! But it was fun to discuss, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Todd,
This is not opinion, it is simple physics and pure math!
Maybe rocket surgery.

The single discharge has a certain amount of impulse, like a rocket.
Impulse is measured in units of pound-seconds or newton-seconds.
Impulse is the integral of a force (thrust) with respect to time.
That is calculus.

If the rifle hung motionless in a zero-gravity vacuum, relative to the observer (that's Relativity,
then the time between the double discharges would not matter.

The first discharge would accelerate the rifle to X velocity (recoil velocity) and the rifle would then possess Y kinetic energy (recoil energy),
coasting along forever like that, unless 1 millisecond or one millenium later the second load fired off and then that same certain amount of impulse would add to velocity,
making it 2X, and recoil energy (or Kinetic Energy) would become 4Y.

If a shooter has the gun tightly to his shoulder and is hanging on, the rifle will be decelerated to some degree, as soon as it starts accelerating in recoil.

The rifle must stop accelerating as soon as powder gas and bullet mass have left the barrel.
The decelerating forces will require integration of complex functions with respect to time to quantify.
This will require integrating the grip strength and shoulder resistance and yields of flesh and recoil pads.

Near impossible to precisely quantify and time.

Impulse ends as soon as the last of the ejecta (bullet and powder gas) leaves the barrel.
That takes somewhere between 1 and 2 milliseconds.

But recoil energy and velocity are already being absorbed by the shooter before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Thus peak recoil comes within 2 milliseconds.

To quadruple recoil energy, both barrels have to discharge within 2 milliseconds.

Greater time separations than that between the discharges must result in less than quadruple the recoil energy.I really do not care to analyze any further than that, else I might get a headache.

quote:

If the rifle is still moving rearward in recoil when the second shot goes off, then that double-discharge will produce more recoil energy than just the sum of the two separate shots.

To get the "two-squared" quadrupling effect on the kinetic energy of recoil,
then both shots must be simultaneous, unless in a zero-G vaccum.

Talk about picking the fly shit out of the pepper!

If the math interests you then the above post is of benefit but, IMO, the only thing that matters to the shooter/rifle owner is, is it a true simultaneous discharge, or a strumming discharge? If it is a true simultaneous discharge then it indicates a gun problem, and if it is a strumming discharge then it indicates a shooter problem, and both hurt the shooter, but only the true simultaneous discharge puts undue stress on the rifle! Unless the shooter is taking an exam for his degree in math, none of the post above matters to him at all!

None of the above matters, at all, to the guy getting the crap knocked out of him! He’s still hurting no matter if it is 1, 2 or 10 milliseconds. Beyond the pain in his shoulder, the forces on the rifle it’s self are multidirectional in a true double simultaneous discharge. These forces are in the reverse thrust against the breech face, the pressures against the chamber walls, and the strain on the locking surfaces are all combined to make what ever damage is done to the shooter, and the rifle its self is what counts! At the moment he gets the double discharge I doubt he would be interested in mathematical equations!

Beyond that, in a TRUE simultaneous discharge there is no separation between shots. I’d say with the strumming double discharge it is no different than a simple one, two tap as far as stress on the rifle its self because the bullet is most likely already out of the first barrel before the second is actually fired, and is in full recoil by the time the second bullet actually gets to the muzzle. This is the reason the second shot will be much higher on the target than the first. In this case the only damage is to the shooter, and none to the rifle! All this is simply the paralysis of analysis!

It's funny how these things get so technical that most hunters no longer recconize them as gun related!

.........................


..............................................

quote:

last year i had a guy double with a 600 twice in a row and it literally made him puke ! - not fun

Just re-visiting an old thead. Having had a few, including one from doubling my .470, I'd say this guy got a pretty good concussion.

Dean

I'd say that such incidents are a very good reason to hunt with a Winchester Model 70 instead. Besides, who can carry a .600 NE around all day?

Given the superior accuracy and lower recoil of a .375 H&H or even a .416, making close hits easier, and the fact that they probably penetrate deeper than a 900 grain .600 bullet at 1900 fps, isn't a .600 a pretty poor choice for DG to start with?

Taylor's KO value notwithstanding, I suspect you would probably hit so much closer to where you aimed with a Model 70 that it would more than makeup any difference in "killing power," even for brain shots on elephant. Has anyone ever seriously tried to study this?

Incidentally I just calculated that the 600 NE 900 grain bullet has the same sectional density as a 400 grain .416 bullet--and starts out 400 fps slower. What good is is, anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Besides, who can carry a .600 NE around all day?

I have as have many others with 600NE, 577NE, 600OK, 585AHR, etc. My 70 year old father carried his - albeit with a shoulder strap rather than the traditional "African carry" - every day in Zimbabwe

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Given the superior accuracy and lower recoil of a .375 H&H or even a .416, making close hits easier

Recoil has zero effect on the first shot ...

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
and the fact that they probably penetrate deeper than a 900 grain .600 bullet at 1900 fps

Incorrect - see the 194 page "Terminal Bullet Performance" thread in Big Bores started by Michael458 - among other calibers Michael and Sam test the really big bores like the 577 and 600NE.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

isn't a .600 a pretty poor choice for DG to start with?

Not on my Cape buffalo, not on my dad's Cape buffalo, not on Sam's elephant not on any of the African dangerous game taken by Robgunbuilder, SAFARIKID, DoubleDon and countless others who have actually hunted with 585 and up caliber rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

Taylor's KO value notwithstanding, I suspect you would probably hit so much closer to where you aimed with a Model 70 that it would more than makeup any difference in "killing power," even for brain shots on elephant. Has anyone ever seriously tried to study this?

I absolutely agree - accuracy is paramount but I am not sure why one couldn't be as accurate with a 600 as they could with a 375.

If you mean a double rifle vs. a bolt, the first shot should go exactly where you want it to go. If the double is regulated properly, the second should go precisely where you aim separated by the distance between the two barrels. Most doubles that would be less than an inch.

All that said, I sure as heck I don't do the same thing as Tony Makris and I hope that I live up to my end of the bargain in the accuracy department in a few week's time.