Was just watching Wild Skies right now and when the man shot the Elephant his 600 doubled on him and drew blood on both ends. OUCH
He said it felt like he had just been hit by Mahammed Ali

those heavy calibres give a significant recoil even with just one barrell - i was with craig once when he had a double on a 600 and it certainly had him reeling around for a few minutes with a need to sit down -

last year i had a guy double with a 600 twice in a row and it literally made him puke ! - not fun

Why do you think the rifle doubled? Does the trigger finger accidently hit the second trigger during recoil, or is the recoil so violent it trips the sear on the second barrel?

I wasn't even aware that Sabati made a 600 NE !!! :-)

I have doubled a .500 NE twice while hunting. Both times it was my own fault, "strumming" back over the rear trigger. On both occassions I did not even realize I had doubled the rifle until Buzz inquired and I checked the chamber to find two spent cases. Just illustrates the point that recoil in a hunting situation is a different beast to deal with than it is at the range. Now having shot my .577 a number of times, I think doubling that would be serious bad news. May make the case for shooting the rear trigger first and then the front trigger.

quote:

and I checked the chamber to find two spent cases

And they talk about the quick second shot with a double rifle.

Do they mean that quick?

As usual, the second shot was merely academic as the first shot had already settled the score. Since they won't let me carry an automatic, I choose to shoot both barrels simulataneously as the next best option.

Doubling almost always occurs from user fault, strumming. My take on this, and I have witnessed it several times and done it only once myself, is from too light a hold on the forend or from poor trigger pull technique in that the shooter pulls instead of squeezes the trigger.

A doubling .500NE is not fun to watch, and I've seen it several times and have pictures of the strumming to prove poor technique.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I wasn't even aware that Sabati made a 600 NE !!! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
. . . the shooter pulls instead of squeezes the trigger.

That is precisely what I did in both instances.

I just make it a practice to fire the rear trigger first. It was easy to get acclimated to doing so.

Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I have doubled a .500 NE twice while hunting. Both times it was my own fault, "strumming" back over the rear trigger. On both occassions I did not even realize I had doubled the rifle until Buzz inquired and I checked the chamber to find two spent cases. Just illustrates the point that recoil in a hunting situation is a different beast to deal with than it is at the range. Now having shot my .577 a number of times, I think doubling that would be serious bad news. May make the case for shooting the rear trigger first and then the front trigger.

Yikes! That sounds dangerous. It kinda reenforces my belief that doubles are not the best choice unless one uses them almost exclusively.

Not trying to offend the DR guys, just stating my opinion.

I've doubled my 465H&H, I knew every time it did it although the bloke I was hunting with didn't pick one of the times and asked why I was reloading !!!

I'd hate to double a 600Nitro, that is one gun that gives a serious shove when it goes off.

.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
It kinda reenforces my belief that doubles are not the best choice unless one uses them almost exclusively.

Not to mention the many smaller calibres, I've shot .577 and .600NEs and have yet to double or even hit my finger on the rear of the trigger gaurd. Mechanical failures asside I kind of have to think that doubling or brusing of fingers on the trigger gaurd is related to either poor shooting form or poor fit or both. It's not a "double rifle problem".

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I have doubled a .500 NE twice while hunting. Both times it was my own fault, "strumming" back over the rear trigger. On both occassions I did not even realize I had doubled the rifle until Buzz inquired and I checked the chamber to find two spent cases. Just illustrates the point that recoil in a hunting situation is a different beast to deal with than it is at the range. Now having shot my .577 a number of times, I think doubling that would be serious bad news. May make the case for shooting the rear trigger first and then the front trigger.

Yikes! That sounds dangerous. It kinda reenforces my belief that doubles are not the best choice unless one uses them almost exclusively.

Not trying to offend the DR guys, just stating my opinion.

That's why you use enough gun for the first shot . . . instead of engaging in esoteric and silly arguments that a .375 is just as effective as a .500 . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
Was just watching Wild Skies right now and when the man shot the Elephant his 600 doubled on him and drew blood on both ends. OUCH
He said it felt like he had just been hit by Mahammed Ali

What injuries did he have? I was just wondering because of the recoil energy. I'm having a lightweight 600 Overkill built and wondering how it's going to feel to shoot it. Anyway for comparison:

600 Nitro ....... 100 ft-lbs
Doubling ........ 400 ft-lbs

600 Overkill..... 300 ft-lbs

This is what they explained on the show.

While sighting it in at 50 yds the right barrel (front trigger) was hitting a bit right and the left barrel (rear trigger) was hitting dead on. He decided to shoot the left barrel (rear trigger) first.

After it happened, they said the the gunsmith told them (they gave the name but I don't remember it) told them that the right barrel (front trigger) was set a 1 1/2 lbs and the rear was set at something higher (don't remember what it was). The GS said it was set that way because the front trigger is usually pulled first and the the higher setting on the rear trigger (left barrel) would keep it from "doubling".

So...he was shooting it in a way it wasn't set up to shoot - rear trigger first, front trigger second.

quote:

Originally posted by 56hawk:
I'm having a lightweight 600 Overkill built and wondering how it's going to feel to shoot it.

Make sure you put a good recoil pad on it.

.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Not trying to offend the DR guys, just stating my opinion.

That's why you use enough gun for the first shot . . . instead of engaging in esoteric and silly arguments that a .375 is just as effective as a .500 . . . .

Jines
I stated that I was not trying to get anyone's goat, just stating an opinion.

And for the record, I have never said that a 375 is just as effective as a 500. That is just silly....

But a well placed 375 is more effective than a poorly place 500. And it is much easier to properly place a 375 from a scoped bolt rifle than a 500 from a express sighted DR.

And a 375 with 4 in the mag is infinitely better that a 500 that is empty without the hunter realizing it. No way to argue that.....

Jason, sorry for the confusion, my comment regarding calibers was not directed at you. No offense intended.

That said, a well placed .22 is more effective than a poorly placed .375, and since everyone can shoot a .22 better than a .375, we should all start using .22's right? Sometimes deductive reasoning can only take you so far.

BOLT RIFLES RULE!!!!!

Actually, the quote he reported was from Ross Seyfried. I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense. I can understand that if a trigger is set light enough, it could be jarred off by the first shot. I can't believe that a quality maker would put triggers on a gun so light that they would be jarred off by shooting the other barrel in any situation. Besides that, I was always taught that doubles of that age were always intended to have the rear trigger fired first, so that the gun moved under recoil and helped you move to the front trigger. It is also easier to insert your trigger finger into the larger space in front of the front trigger than into the narrower space between. I have always shot this way. Try it a few times and I think you will find it is faster. It's only in the last twenty or so years that I have heard about firing the front trigger first, but now it seems to be the accepted way to do it. I suspect that the simple reason on the .600 is that the 80-100 year old gun has a worn trigger, and it is just set too light.

Incidentally, they showed a good look at the target, and the "slightly to the right" looked to be about 6" right and 6" low at 50 yds. Not sure it was ideal brain shot material in any event.

quote:

A doubling .500NE is not fun to watch, and I've seen it several times and have pictures of the strumming to prove poor technique.

I would really like to see those photos.Is it too much to ask to post them?Thank you.

Best-
Locksley,R.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
I just make it a practice to fire the rear trigger first. It was easy to get acclimated to doing so.

+1

After a long stalk, with fingers moist from sweat and grime, it's not difficult - for me at least - to have recoil-induced doubling caused by the front trigger inadvertently sliding to the rear trigger. It happened to me twice before I switched to firing the rear trigger first. It's now second nature to shift my trigger finger to the front trigger after that first shot.

''Originally posted by Art S.:
It is also easier to insert your trigger finger into the larger space in front of the front trigger than into the narrower space between. I have always shot this way.''

+1

Just doubly sure ?

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
Actually, the quote he reported was from Ross Seyfried. I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense. I can understand that if a trigger is set light enough, it could be jarred off by the first shot. I can't believe that a quality maker would put triggers on a gun so light that they would be jarred off by shooting the other barrel in any situation. Besides that, I was always taught that doubles of that age were always intended to have the rear trigger fired first, so that the gun moved under recoil and helped you move to the front trigger. It is also easier to insert your trigger finger into the larger space in front of the front trigger than into the narrower space between. I have always shot this way. Try it a few times and I think you will find it is faster.

Art, the quote of Ross is a valid one, because the front trigger on a double rifle is always set lighter than the back trigger! Of course I agree that the recoil of firing the back trigger should not trip the front trigger from recoil. That rifle may have had some wear on the sear, being most often fired from the right barrel for a SINGLE shot. The right barrel is fired far more often that he left one. That is why many older double rifle have the right barrel far more worn than the left.

However the reason the front trigger is always lighter is the same reason the front trigger is always the one with a “SET” feature if the rifle has one. This is because the double rifle is traditionally fired right barrel first, or right barrel only, and that is not something that is new, it has always been that way! The rifles are even regulated firing RT, LFT,RT, Left in sequence when regulating the rifle at the maker!

quote:

by Art
It's only in the last twenty or so years that I have heard about firing the front trigger first, but now it seems to be the accepted way to do it. I suspect that the simple reason on the .600 is that the 80-100 year old gun has a worn trigger, and it is just set too light.

As I said above firing the right barrel first is not new, it is just that you may have been told the other way round for the last twenty years! If the doubling is due to wear of the sear on the right barrel that is common because that trigger is fired far more than the left barrel, as that is the first, and many time the only trigger fired for the
last 100 years or more, but with a heavy recoiling double like a 600NE, that wear not being attended to is the fault of the owner!

One other thing if you were told to always fire the back trigger first, I assume you mean with a shotgun! Shotguns and heavy double rifle are two different animals! If shotguns was the firarm, it makes less sense, because most shotguns have different chokes in each barrel. The left barrel is usually a tighter choke than the right barrel. This is so with a two trigger double shotgun you can select the choke needed for the way you are hunting birds! If you are walking up birds that flush in front of you flying away, you fire the open choke for the close shot, and the tight choke as the birds get farther away. Transversely if you are shooting birds coming or pass shooting you fire the tight choke first, and the next bird. Or the one you missed will slide in another ten yards before he flares, so the more open choke is the one now needed.

quote:

byArt
Incidentally, they showed a good look at the target, and the "slightly to the right" looked to be about 6" right and 6" low at 50 yds. Not sure it was ideal brain shot material in any event.

I agree that either the shooter needs to learn how to shoot a double rifle or the sights need some work! Was the shooter right handed, or a lefty? I would guess if the shooting off to the right, the shooter was right handed, and was scared of the rifle’s recoil and was yanking the triggers rather than squeezing them, which also may be the reason for his doubling the rifle!

There are a lot of urban legends surrounding double-barreled rifles, and most are simply repeated misinformation fostered by gun rag writers who don’t know better but because they write in magazines many take what they write as chiseled in stone!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting the left barrel first, if you have a problem with doubleing! However it is not any faster to get on the front trigger by doing so! The biggest reason for doubleing a double rifle is a loose hold on the pistol grip, and fore-end! If the double is sliding back under recoil to place you trigger finger to the front trigger then it the hold that is wrong, not the trigger you are choosing!

When it gets down to shooting a heavy double against dangerous animals, the shooter need to prefect his handling of the rifle long before he gets in front of an elephant!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting the left barrel first

I would hope not! IIRC that is what Elmer Keith recommended. I believe he stated that the left barrel would tend to recoil nearly straight back, while the muzzle of the right barrel would tend to flip out to the right.

What is the chance of a doubling .600NE breaking a shoulder or worse? Thanks.


Best-
Locksley,R.

Sorry Mac, but I guess I'll have to say I completely disagree with about evrything you said about technique and let it go at that. I don't own a lot of doubles (other than shotguns) but have shot them and been around people who did before they were back in popularity. When I was younger, everyone who fooled with them claimed the proper method was rear, then front. It really makes a lot of sense to me. There is no chance of hitting both triggers at once. It is also faster, and that's a fact. My recoil comment was unfortunate, and is a holdover from shotgun technique wit straight hand grips. I believe it is much faster to fire the rear, simply extend your trigger finger as if straightening it, then curl it back into the very accessable front of the bow and fire again. It's harder to describe than do, but once you get the rhythem, it is lightning fast and essentially eliminates the possibility of doubling. I too remember Keith writing of this technique, along with O'Conner. There were others as well. To each his own, but that's my system, I think it's the best, and I teach it to people whom I am helping learn to shoot a double, either shotgun or rifle.

Incidentally, on some guns the triggers can be swapped, and I have known a couple of people who swapped them specifically when not made that way in order to make the right trigger the rear. By doing this, the front trigger is offset to the left, getting it out of the way of straightening the trigger finger for the second (left) shot. They felt pretty strongly about the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by RobinOLocksley:
What is the chance of a doubling .600NE breaking a shoulder or worse? Thanks.
Best-
Locksley,R.

I'd be more concerned with soft muscle tears, rotator cuff damage,
retina detachment than a broken shoulder.

Broken bones can be easily fixed, soft tissue injuries are a PITA.

.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting the left barrel first

I would hope not! IIRC that is what Elmer Keith recommended. I believe he stated that the left barrel would tend to recoil nearly straight back, while the muzzle of the right barrel would tend to flip out to the right.

That, of course, is the way the rifle would be regulated.

There is a reason why the rear trigger is offset to the left and the right trigger offset to right.

If you want an interesting view point on Elmer Kieth you should read Prentice Grays book about his hunt into the Central BC with Kieth as a packer

Art S. The people you were around who claimed that the proper method to shoot a Double Rifle was rear trigger first were wrong.

That may have been the way their lack of training and technique worked but it is/was/and never will be proper.

I am sorry, but every time I see a post about rear trigger first I feel stupider for having read it.

C'mon Nigel, stop laughing and pitch in here.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by RobinOLocksley:
What is the chance of a doubling .600NE breaking a shoulder or worse? Thanks.
Best-
Locksley,R.

I'd be more concerned with soft muscle tears, rotator cuff damage,
retina detachment than a broken shoulder.

Broken bones can be easily fixed, soft tissue injuries are a PITA.

.

lung contusion, etc...but after reading J.A Hunter's "Hunter" which I enjoyed very much and left me impressed with the hunting experience he has,I will take the mans word that the only thing that can be relied upon to stop a charge is a really big gun at least a 500 NE.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
it is much easier to properly place a 375 from a scoped bolt rifle than a 500 from a express sighted DR.

Jason, as you said in one of your posts, I'm not trying to get anyone's goat either. I'm really not. I've selectively edited your comment but I hope not in an unfair way. But this statement IS THE VERY REASON why I hunt with a 500NE double. I'm not putting anyone down here, just stating my preference and why.

As mentioned before, I've chosen to shoot an animal with my scoped 375 due to long range instead of staying with the 500 and trying for a better shot on several occasions. It has usually been because of a nice trophy that I didn't want to take a chance on loosing. So I used the 375 and got the trophy. But in the process, I missed out on the more rewarding "experience" of a more challenging stalk and well placed bullet from a more primitive weapon, and have felt that I cheating myself afterwords.

Yes the 375 is easier. I shoot the 500NE well but it did not come naturally. It took a lot of practice, and I do mean a lot! I've never considered myself recoil sensitive but in all honesty, I think the 500NE is probably my limit. I would love to try a 577, but I know it would take work to be proficient. The 375 was just not that hard to shoot well. Again, not putting down the bolt gun. I love them all. But for me at least, I really enjoy the extra challenge of hunting DG with a DR! Just an opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

Cheers,

Todd

quote:

Originally posted by 56hawk:

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
Was just watching Wild Skies right now and when the man shot the Elephant his 600 doubled on him and drew blood on both ends. OUCH
He said it felt like he had just been hit by Mahammed Ali

What injuries did he have? I was just wondering because of the recoil energy. I'm having a lightweight 600 Overkill built and wondering how it's going to feel to shoot it. Anyway for comparison:

600 Nitro ....... 100 ft-lbs
Doubling ........ 400 ft-lbs

600 Overkill..... 300 ft-lbs

Im not sure what his injuuries were. I just remember he mentioned he was bleeding

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting the left barrel first

By Jason;
I would hope not! IIRC that is what Elmer Keith recommended . I believe he stated that the left barrel would tend to recoil nearly straight back, while the muzzle of the right barrel would tend to flip out to the right.

........... I too like most of what old Elmer had to say about almost anything concerning firearms, and cartridges, however on the subject of double rifles he had little choice of which trigger to pull first because he was a single trigger fan on double rifles and where double rifle were concerned, a point most hunters who use double rifles to hunt dangerous game with disagree and prefer two triggers and pull the right barrel first!

The double rifle flipping less for the left barrel than the right barrel is accounted for in the regulation in a right hand rifle, shot by a right handed shooter and will be the exact opposite for a left handed rifle! Bullet placement on the target will be different a small amount if a left handed shooter is shooting a right hand rifle, and also different if a right handed shooter is shooting a left handed double rifle. Within 50 yards this makes little difference under hunting conditions, will make a real difference if working up a regulating load for a double rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting the left barrel first

I would hope not! IIRC that is what Elmer Keith recommended. I believe he stated that the left barrel would tend to recoil nearly straight back, while the muzzle of the right barrel would tend to flip out to the right.

That, of course, is the way the rifle would be regulated.

BINGO!!!!!! .........................

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
Sorry Mac, but I guess I'll have to say I completely disagree with about evrything you said about technique and let it go at that.

I think, at least on the bold statement above you are CORRECT, but sorry to say not much else!

quote:

By Jason;
I would hope not! IIRC that is what Elmer Keith recommended . I believe he stated that the left barrel would tend to recoil nearly straight back, while the muzzle of the right barrel would tend to flip out to the right.

Let's not forget that Elmer had a 27" sleeve, actually needed a 12.5" LOP and was doiing pretty good to even reach the front trigger on most Double Rifles.

Just to correct an error, but the entire statement is correct if you read it closely. I said that I disagreed with you totally on the subject, and that is a completely true.

:=)