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I just came from a banquet where Nshonalanga of Pretoria, South Africa was advertising a lion special. Neither the owner, Dr. Peter Harris, or a representative were at the booth to answer questions. But, here it is exactly as advertised: Special: 7 day lion hunt package US $9,500. 1x male lion, 1x impala, 1x blue wildebeest, 1x warthog. Private chater @ US $500 per person, minimum of 4 hunters, limited packages available, book now for 2006 / early 2007 www.ntshonalangasafaris.co.za "There are worse memorials to a life well-lived than a pair of elephant tusks." Robert Ruark | ||
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Did they have head shots of the lions for you to pick wnich one you wanted? DB Bill aka Bill George | |||
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No, but the photos in the brochure look like they just came from the beauty parlor. "There are worse memorials to a life well-lived than a pair of elephant tusks." Robert Ruark | |||
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Do you have first hand knowledge of this outfitter conducting "canned" feline hunts? Second hand knowledge? Please elaborate with data. Thank you in advance. | |||
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Which zoo will they be hunting? | |||
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500, Same question to you, sir: Do you have first hand knowledge of this outfitter conducting "canned" feline hunts? Second hand knowledge? Please elaborate with data. Thank you in advance. | |||
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Stuntpiolot2, Other than what I have posted, I have absolutely no knowledge of this company. "There are worse memorials to a life well-lived than a pair of elephant tusks." Robert Ruark | |||
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stuntpilot, SCI does not permit entry of RSA lions into its regular record book because nearly all of those hunts are canned. Especially at this price. But if someone wants to shoot a lion and does not care whether it is an ethical hunt or not, then RSA may be just the ticket. | |||
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Maybe Saeed knows something about these guys. Check out Gallery 5 under Photos. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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StuntPilot, I am not experienced in African hunting at all but common sense suggests that if an outfitter is advertising a male lion hunt for 7 days, you need to take it with a grain of salt. I have heard too many stories on this forum in the past few years where experienced hunters came home empty handed from 21+ days of hunting lion in supposedly great lion areas. If this guy is running a legit lion hunting operation around the Kruger area then the price is the best I have ever seen advertised and I would still be cautious, but if he is not then I would like to know the name of the lion I will be hunting.  The price of knowledge is great but the price of ignorance is even greater. | |||
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Clarence. | |||
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Not to mention it is a minimum of four hunters. "There are worse memorials to a life well-lived than a pair of elephant tusks." Robert Ruark | |||
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We have hunted with Peter Harris twice in South Africa, and would gladly hunt with him again. Peter is an honourable man, and would tell you up front what you are hunting. We hunted plains game on several farms. One of which had a lion breeding area cordoned off. I suspect one of the farms he hunts one has some lions on offer, and asked him if he could find a client. I know many of us on this forum frown on "canned" hunting. I suspect all hunting in South Africa can be classified as "canned", as practically all hunts are conducted on fenced farms. Out of choice, I would not shoot a lion or buffalo in South Africa, although I have enjoyed shooting many species of plains game. But, I would like to ask our members a couple of questions on cat hunting. I have shot 3 leopards. Two in Zimbabwe and one in Tanzania, and in no stretch of one imagination can I call those hunts. All we did was put up some baits, sat in a hide, and shot the leopards as they fed. The same thing with lions. I have shot 5. 3 were actual hunts, and 2 were shot on baits just as we did with leopards. Of the othet 3, one was a lioness we saw carrying half a warthog in mid morning. We tried to shoot her and were not able to. We left her for a couple of hours, then followed her tracks for about two hours. Finding her asleep under a boabab tree, and shot her. The other two were part of pride that was chasing a herd of buffalo. We left them for a few hours, then followed them . Hoping we might find them on a kill. Instead we scared them from their sleep in grass, and shot a lion and lioness. | |||
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Saeed, Your statement that you would not hunt lion in SA clearly states that you don't condone hunting lions in small enclosures and do not see any similarity in cruel slaying of a pen raised animal in a small enclosure and hunting the king of predators on a bait. To me, hunting lions on a bait is ethical since we are trying to outsmart another predator on his turf and we are also taking a risk that he may never show up on our bait (as it has happened to you several times). Even if he does we may pass on the lion if the trophy is not what we are looking for or if it's not of legal age. All these elements combined make up for a true hunt where success is anything but guaranteed. Shooting a pen raised lion in a small enclosure while he is sedated just so some rich guy can mount him in his trophy room and tell stories of his adventure to impress his buddies is far from hunting. Just my two cents The price of knowledge is great but the price of ignorance is even greater. | |||
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Saeed A great question. And just where do you draw the line. I just finished reading The Elephant Hunters of Lado. Its relevance here is the incredible amount of game that existed before both the rinderpest epidemic and the population explosion. Millions of buffalo were wiped out by rinderpest. Compare that number to estimated populations in African countries today - no more than a few hundred thousand even in the best countries. And as go prey animals so go predators. There can be no recreating the past. Human needs take an ever incresing priority. Buffalo carry foot and mouth, bovine TB and other diseases that are deadly to both humans and domestic livestock. Predators find it easier to prey upon livestock than wild game. So the animals lose. There are many efforts in Africa to get people to look at game animals as a continuously renewable source of revenue. To do that is like moving a mountain. SA has Cape Buffalo breeding programs that are producing animals without hoof and mouth, bovine TB and other diseases. And its working. Yes, they are bred "in captivity", but they do not endanger domestic livestock. As for lion, they have been effectively eliminated in all but a few places compared to where they once roamed. And hunting pressure of the past has made maned lions a rare commodity. So a breeding program to bring back the old gene pool is now underway. We would all probably agree that lions raised in Spain and uncaged in a high fenced area just prior to a hunt is less than sporting. But lions bred in Africa and released to the wild? The same as buffalo really. And what about elephant and other "wild" game that are tagged and monitored, and receive some periodic medical attention when anesthetised? Or cloister themselves in no hunting zones receiving a healthy diet. Is an animal that ventures off the park premises only to be shot a canned animal? Shooting animals over bait happens everywhere. So does shooting animals brought to bay by dogs. As well as animals called in by the use of calls. Or driven hunts. The similarity to canned hunts is that all of these methods give the hunter an advantage they would not otherwise enjoy. And there are those that say spot and stalk is the only true way to hunt. That is the way I have hunted deer in the USA in the past, and I will be honest and say if you measure a hunt by a kill, I am a most unsuccessful deer hunter. But times do change. Most deer in the USA can be found in no hunting zones. And ranches and game farms have sprung up to make deer available in places where you can actually hunt them. And even spot and stalk raises some questions. How much do you use a vehicle? Do you rely on game cameras to help with determining game patterns? Do you use a rangefinder? We could go on and on with this. The point is that fair chase is merely a concept. A starting thought on what we as hunters should use to guide us in our hunting experience. Being only human, I guess we are all resistent to change. But in life, change is really the only constant. I think the efforts in South Africa to preserve and reintroduce game is commendable. You talk about people with a true pioneering spirit! But they cannot do this in a vacuum. And despite all the lip service given to conservation, the funds to drive such endeavors are vapor for the most part. The folks in Africa trying to conserve game receive virtually no, if any, government assistance. Or for that matter any money from the "greens" - the greens are great at throwing around huge amounts of money that achieves only one end - to ban hunting. Look at the situation in Kenya. Money ostensibly to preserve and increase wild game populations is available by the truck full so long as the government bans all hunting. It does nothing for the game populations. The only true beneficiaries are poachers. They now have a small barrel to shoot fish in. We are all very aware that hunting and conservation go hand in hand. We also know that hunting hurts poachers and does more to keep them in check than just about anything else out there. But if we do not support the efforts of those out there that recognize hunting as a viable and necessary conservation tool we will very soon have nothing to be fair about chasing. The only way many of these farms in Africa can support their continued efforts to preserve or reintroduce game populations is to generate revenue from hunting. In the last 100+ years, we have seen game like buffalo go from populations in the 10's of millions to the hundreds of thousands. And in 10 years time the current numbers may seem like fantasy. We have also seen the effots of the greens proven time and time again to be abysmal failures. Yet more and more of the population sees hunting as backward and barbaric It just may be that in 10, 20 or 50 years, the only game animals left to hunt will be raised on game farms. We can certainly stick to a narrow concept of what is fair or canned. We can also recognize that change is upon us, and will overtake us if we do not adapt. Just like the evolution of a species. More importantly, we need to recognize that the efforts of a few people in Africa are critical to the future of our culture. The "breed and release" game farms, the PH's and the like are doing something that few of us would find profitable. Yet all of us in some way enjoy the fruits of their labor. We need to support their efforts. And we need to realize that these days by some definition or another, all hunting can be defined as "canned". Sorry for the long post. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Jim, There is a lot of food for thaught in your post. It is a well structered argument put forward in a very organised way. I think the biggest problem with canned hunting is that a hunters are not truelly informed of the real circumstances of their hunt. I do not even want to go to sedation of predators, that is disgusting Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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Jaco, I also think there is a lack of information out there as well. That was part of the reason for my post. Without knowledge of the facts, people tend to fill in their own blanks, which gets us nowhere. There are some practices out there that are plain vile. I would rate sedating game at the top of the list. To me, the person that does that is not far removed, if at all, from a poacher. And come to think of it, may be several steps below a poacher who poaches to feed his family. I was exposed to this several years ago here in the US on a wild boar hunt. The boars were free ranging and not confined. The lodge was nice. Once you got there, you were informed that they had other game available. None of it was native to the area. The other game was American bison, elk, red stagg and a few others which escape me. We drove by this big game sopt on the way back from the hog hunt. It was eoughly a 40 or less acre high reinforced fenced enclosure. ANd all the animals were grouped in that relatively small space together. These animals associated the sight of a human with feeding time. Thus, they were not spooked by human presence and were fairly docile. The distance from the road we were on to the animals was no more than 300 meters. It was explained to us that to hunt these animals, you were taken, by truck, through a gate to get even closer. The truck was stopped about 300 meters from the animals, and you approached on foot. It sounded like the typical shot was 50 meters or less. Once killed, the animal carcass was removed by forklift. I was so appalled that I never went back even for boar. This was not hunting - it was slaughter. There is a difference between bred in captivity and raised in captivity. There is also a difference between raised in captivity and pen raised, since with the former the food supply can be where the animal provides its own food and maintains its natural wariness of man. While we need to keep an open mind, we also need to maintain a watchful eye. There are some things that are clearly wrong, and you certainly named one that makes my blood boil. People engaged in such practices do more harm to our passion for hunting than any green organization ever will. So, as it is important to support the PH's and the people like the true conservationist game breeders who follow a kind of breed and release method, it is perhaps more important for us to rid those who promote slaughter and practices like drugging animals. They are a blight on all of us. By the way, if anyone is interested in the name of the place I referred to in the US, just PM me and I will respond. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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In 94 I hunted with Peter Harris and he did offer high fenced South Africa lions. I don't see any difference between high fenced Lions,Buffalo,Rhino. Its only shooting, there is no hunt. Let's face it the people that shoot these high fenced animals aren't bothered by moral issues. They want to go back home and tell everybody about the "Great African Hunt" they went on. I know they keep track of the lions kill in South Africa each year. I think it around 200 a year! Robert Johnson | |||
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Jim, That was a well reasoned post. One of the best I've read here in quite some time. You certainly have nothing to apologize for. The ostentatious piety I've seen elsewhere, on the other hand, is usually a red flag. Thank you for responding intelligently and providing me food for thought on this subject. | |||
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Sounds like an awful cheep lion hunt. I wonder if with SA considering banning canned lion hunting there isn't a fire sale going on for lions. 465H&H | |||
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That was the word last year...Lion hunting regs were changing and I would have a large impact on Lion hunting in SA. I have no idea how it settled out. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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Jim Manion, GREAT POSTS!!!!  "Ethics" can be shakey ground. Whose ethics? What regional or ethnic standards will we impose? I surely don't condone what the majority would agree is "canned hunting" - small enclousures with semi-domesticated animals - but some serious purists may consider some of what I do embrace (such as PG on thousands of acre fenced farms) as "canned" hunting by their own standards. Some would have us hunt on bare feet with a sharp stick as the only "ethical" method! Its a slippery slope, be careful.  An old man sleeps with his conscience, a young man sleeps with his dreams. | |||
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Roscoe- You are correct. They are expecting the hammer of new regs shortly and trying to liquidate their supply. | |||
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So the price indicates it is a canned hunt? I have never heard of a fair chase lion hunt for such a price. | |||
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I think if you go back to some of my posts on Burkina Faso you will find that you can hunt a lion there for even a little less total price. It is true that there are only a couple of lion tags every year and the chances for success are more in line with a real fair chase hunt, but the fact remains that it is possible to hunt lion (no MGM manes) for a reasonable price. Here is some information which dates from last year. "To hunt Roan and/or Buffalo requires a ten day license (9 hunting days), lion requires a 14 day license (12 hunting days). At 2005 prices the ten day package (9 hunting days) costs 5350 Euros for 2 on 1. For a single hunter add 100 Euros per hunting day. The fourteen day license costs 6850 Euros 2 on 1. Same supplement for a single hunter. The big game license is an additional one time fee of 235 Euros. His animal tax list is sort of complicated because in Burkina Faso the trophy prep and export certificate isn't included. Adding up the seperate elements I come up with the following totals: Roan approx. 626 Euros, buffalo approx. 596 Euros, Defassa Waterbuck approx. 506 Euros, Harnessed bushbuck approx. 500 Euros. If you decide to go for a lion add 1500 euros to the 14 day hunt flat fee and 1636 Euros of animal tax if successful. So, these aren't Namibia prices. This said, a lion is a lion and a buffalo is a buffalo so they might not be that bad after all if you go after those two. Probably too much for me however. A ten day hunt taking one buffalo and one Roan would cost approx 6807 Euros, or 8,168 USD at 2 on 1 prices. " _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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AS of Next year no more lion Hunts in South Africa. So you could say it's a fire Sale. I would'nt want to have to feed the Lions. | |||
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Release the hounds! | |||
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Robert, You usually seem to have very sensible posts. However, didn't you hunt with Dirk at OkandukaSeibe? His place is high fenced. Your report is one of the reasons my family and I booked a hunt with him for this coming June. I'm not condoning "canned" hunts, but people need to realize that "high fenced" doesn't neccessarily mean "canned". I would never participate in a "canned" hunt of any kind. But I have hunted high fenced ranches and will continue to do so on properties that are properly managed and large enough to offer a fair chase hunt. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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Gents I know Peter Harris and I know about these hunts. It is RSA and they are ranch hunts period. He dosnt make any pretense otherwise and advertises them as such. They are not for everyone, probably me included, but I respect him for being totally upfront about what they are. You would be surprised how many of these hunts are sold. They are very popular. I would guess it is mainly because most people just cant afford or justify the kind of money it takes for a true wild area lion hunt these days. They are on fairly large ranches and are as "fair chase" as a ranch hunt of this type can be. Dont take this as an endorsement. IT is what it is. It appeals to many and not to others. However I would not hesitate to hunt with Peter again for plains game in RSA or to go elsewhere for dangerous game with him. If you want to get it straight contact him directly at peterharris@iafrica.com They also have a website http: //www.ntshonalangasafaris.co.za/ Hell, I have to admit for this price it is tempting. A tracking hunt even on a fenced property can be exciting under the right situation. It may well be the only opportunity many people can ever have. I must admit I have mixed emotions on it. The one thing I do know is you can count on Peter to tell you the way it is. You can make your own decisions from there. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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What would be the ethical difference between shooting this lion vs. shooting a 180" whitetail at a feeder on the 7777 Ranch in Texas? Baiting whitetails is not hunting. You sit in blind and wait for the dinner bell to go off and you shoot. Saeed hunted leopards the same way, however, I think there is more to hunting leopards over bait than deer. All in all, ethics are difficult to nail down until you fully understand why you do what you do... As hunters, we need to continue to examine our motives and methods... | |||
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Eland Slayer I would like to clarify Dirk's property is not all High fenced. There is one small area ( less then 10 %) that is high fenced on three sides, A mountain range covers the forth side. There is also one boundary that is high fenced between two ranches. The other three sides are completely open and the boundaries are marked only by painted rocks. With the exception of added water wells, everything is totally wild and free ranging. I hunted with Peter I liked him and had a good time. Visiting Kruger park I even stayed three days at the place were they shooting the lions. It's not in anyway shape or form a hunt ! You are shooting Semi - Domesticated farm raised lions, that are raised in small 20 -100 acre electrified fenced pens.( I am sure the will let them out into larger pens if the shooter wanted ) These lion don't even hunt for them selves they are feed donkeys. If we as hunters refuse to define fair chase, The greenies will do it for us! If this is future for hunting I want no part of it! Robert Johnson | |||
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Robert Oh. The only reason I thought Dirks was high fenced was because of the many pictures and one video from his website where they show a game fence. My mistake. On a side note, I would never hunt a Lion that was raised in a 20-100 acre pen. However, if this was a hunt for a Lion on a place like the size of Pilanesberg National Park where the lion was born wild on over 100,000 acres, then I would give it some consideration. But that's just me. As long as animals on high fenced ranches aren't conditioned to people, then they still posess the same natural fear of man as they would in a free ranging environment, provided the property is large enough with plenty of cover. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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Jim Well said!! Looking forward to next year as this will be a topic of discussion, exspecialy late in the evenings with a good red wine in hand! Katte | |||
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While this is indeed a slippery slope, I use one fact as a starting point for defining a canned hunt. "When was the animal released?" If it was last night, last week, or last month, the animal is not free ranging - by my standards. If they were raised, released, became part of the breeding population on the property, and survived on their own for at least 6 months, then they have met a minimal standard in my book. Again, just the starting point, and there is much more to understand. I doubt these lions are released long before the hunt. Based on speculation, of course. Bill | |||
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What's a canned hunt? If you have 100% chance of getting a shot at a lion during your hunt then it is certainly canned in my opinion. If an animal does not have a resonable chance at eluding a hunter then it is certainly unethical, and in my opinion despicable. Remember "fair chase"? If someone is hunting lions in a 100 acre pen then I am rooting for the lion. Anyone partaking in these kinds of hunts is simply handing ammunition to the anti's. ______________________ I don't shoot elk at 600 yards for the same reasons I don't shoot ducks on the water, or turkeys from their roosts. If this confuses you then you're not welcome in my hunting camp. | |||
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AS Mike has stated, Peter is very upfront about his lion hunts. I have hunted plainsgame with him twice and as Saeed stated he is a very honorable guy. And great company! | |||
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There are some complaints on the Hunt Report of someone booking a lion hunt in Tanzania, and having just one chance of a shot at one, and missing, and then complaining that he did not get his lion, blaming the PH! That is what I call a perfect candidate for a South African lion hunt. | |||
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There has gotta be something fishy going on if 4 guys can go on a lion hunt at the ame time, for 7 days only, and all expect to get lions. But the price is right! | |||
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I can only hope that I get the same opportunity with I hunt Panthera Leo in Tanzania.  Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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Dan, The price is RIGHT. It can't be a wild, fair dinkum hunt. I'm sure Peter, wouldn't tell ayone that. As you you said, the price is right. | |||
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