I don't see that much differece between a "canned/put and take" hunt and shooting a free ranging wild lion over bait. The canned hunts provide an economic incentive to keep a stock of breeding lions in existence than might otherwise disappear and also provide revenue to game ranches keeping them financially strong and in existence. I agree that the nature of canned hunts should be made clear upfront to the potential hunter and that there have to be minimum size requirements for the ranch. There should be no drugging or baiting and the lion has to be freed for a reasonable amount of time before the hunt commences. I confess that I don't know what a reasonable amount of time is. I did go to a local SCI chapter meeting and listen to a guy give a hunt report on his RSA lion hunt on a private ranch in the Limpopo. He was convinced it was a true wild free ranging large manned male lion that just happened to wander in from Botswana. He really didn't know that it was obviously canned and I didn't have the heart to tell him.

I guess my question would be what is determined by "free-ranging" lions. What does the size of a high-fenced area have to be to call it wild?

I am curious because I have never hunted RSA. Only Tanzania, Zimbabwae, and Namibia.

However, I would never go on a "canned" hunt for any animal. Just my chioce.

quote:

I guess my question would be what is determined by "free-ranging" lions. What does the size of a high-fenced area have to be to call it wild?

As far as I can figure out (which ain't too far), this is how the semantics seem to go:

FREE RANGING - No fences that can stop an animal (so cattle fences around kudu don't count). But natural features like rivers, cliffs, etc. are OK. Unclear what hybird places with fences on three sides and a natural barrier on the fourth are? (i.e. Ha Nore in Namibia (4th is desert) or Indianhead in Texas (4th is river))?

FREE ROAMING - Game under large fenced area. Predators have to catch their own game (no dead feeding).

FAIR CHASE - Fences and feeding OK. Game has a "fair" chance of escaping hunter through terrain or limited weapon range (longbow, bow, blackpowder, etc.). No shooting from vehicles. No hunting against fences/barriers.

TRANSPORTED - Game was not in the area but breeding stock was transported in and has since acclimated to area or has bred causing a population to grow.

NON-NATIVE TRANSPORTED - Game was never found in the area but was brought in.

PUT & TAKE - Game is transported into hunting area with insufficient months for game to get familiar with hunting area before a hunt.

CANNED - Game is raised on or transported into a small enclosure (for those who like numbers 200-100 acres or less is often cited - but a high powered rifle hunt on a 500 acre open plain for lion seems more canned than a bowhunt on 100 acres of heavily forested, deep swamp for water buffalo).

DRIVEN HUNT - Most common in Europe. Game is driven or funneled toward hunter by people or vehicles.

GUIDED - Outfitter makes all arrangements and provides equipment for hunt. Professional Hunter arranges and escorts client to shot situation with game.

SEMIGUIDED - Outfitter makes all arrangements and provides equipment for hunt. Professional Hunter may arrange a possible shot situation but does not stay with hunter full time and manages other clients at the same time (i.e. bow hunting from blinds in South Africa).

UNGUIDED - Outfitter makes all arrangements and provides equipment for hunt. After that you're on your own. Most common in North America.

SELFGUIDED - Outfitter arranges paperwork and a translator, local tracker/hunters, and porters. May also provide some transport. Hunter provides all equipment, food, water, etc. Hunt can be on foot using overnight spike camps.

DIY - Grab your stuff and go, mate!

TRULY WILD? Wish I knew!

Hope this helps.

By the way, if you've hunted all around outside SA and like it, save SA for when the mother-in-law insists that you take her to Africa. If she startes whining and snapping, arrange a canned lioness (it's cheaper) long bow hunt in a 50 acre enclosure. Arrive late so that lioness has woken up from the tranquilizer and is really mad in unfamiliar surroundings.

P.S. You might not be able to do the mother-in-law canned lioness hunt after April 2007 :-)!

quote:

Originally posted by Robert johnson:
In 94 I hunted with Peter Harris and he did offer high fenced South Africa lions. I don't see any difference between high fenced Lions,Buffalo,Rhino. Its only shooting, there is no hunt. Let's face it the people that shoot these high fenced animals aren't bothered by moral issues. They want to go back home and tell everybody about the "Great African Hunt" they went on.
I know they keep track of the lions kill in South Africa each year. I think it around 200 a year!

I guess it reduces pressure on Free range animals to let trophy collectors achieve their goal this way.

ozhunter

Spoke yesterday with a friend of mine he come just back from Peter Harris RSA.The where 3 Hunters and shoot 3 Lions ( for the Package price US$ 9500.- each ) in 7 days without a problem he says the track them on a High Fenced Propertys around 15000 Acres in Size and there where Several Shootable Male lions around.

A very controvercial topic. Great, thought provoking contributions. Thanks. Here's another hunter's two cents. We are hunting at the tail end of the era of wild African hunting. It is natural that we are having a hard time letting go of the totally wild Africa of our dreams and of our former acquaintance. No animal brings this into perspective more than the African lion. We might blink when it comes to plains game, but we are naturally indignant when it comes to lion. The thought of the end of wild lion is tantamount to giving up a dream, and we can't bring ourselves to do it.

I too have hunted with Peter Harris. As has been said, a fair amount of hunting (especially in South Africa) is "canned" hunting on one way or another, although I wish we had a better, less pejorative term for it. Nearly all the ranches are high fenced. An example is Leshoka Thabang near Potgietersrus. Peter hunts that ranch at times. They have lots of game behind high fencing around the perimeter and also various large high-fence lion enclosures in the interior (younger lions not in the same enclosure with older lions). This allows photography opportunities for non-hunting groups year-round.

When the time is right or the ranch is over-populated they might decide to offer hunting of lions and plains game, so they might think of Peter or another outfitter to host a hunting group at the ranch. Peter will always run a quality operation on quality ranches, you can depend on that.

This sort of hunt would not be a hunt for everyone. It is certainly not a hunt for the traditionalist who would take offence at the fences. Jim Manion has obviously thought a lot about this and has some great thoughts for us to ponder. My suggestion is that if you are not a traditionalist and if you are brave enough to go lion hunting, then you should seriously consider these hunts. My suggestion is to go check it out for yourself and render your own verdict. We need more first-hand accounts of this sort of hunt. Hunters will know what is fair chase when they see it. The future is waiting for us and we can be sure that it will differ from the past.

quote:

The future is waiting for us and we can be sure that it will differ from the past

Nice post Bill!
Peter.

Based on what mboga biga bwana said, I would not have a problem with this type of hunt as long as the lion population was self-sustaining. However, I would not be interested in it if they were released.

Clearly it is all about where you draw the line and that is decided by what you want out of your hunting experience. The nice thing about this is that you and I can agree on nothing and we can both be right. I agree substantially with Saeed but for maybe a different reason. HOW HARD IS THE HUNT PHYSICALLY? If it is hard (challenging for me) physically its hard mentally. This bar changes as I get older of course. I suggest that tracking a lion on a fenced 7500 acre property could be more difficult and therefore more challenging and therefore "better" to me than say; being driven close to a blind, walking on a clear path to my comfy chair in the blind, and waiting for my PH to nudge me that my bait has brought up my lion and now I have to shoot it off my preplanned rest from my comfy chair in the wilds of roadless Tanzania.

Call me a purist or worse if you like, but this shooting of captive-bred, semi-tame, penned lions is not hunting.

Notwithstanding all of the relativistic arguments, and the fear some have of the "slippery slope," I consider it to be a travesty of true hunting and will never do it.

As for baiting, I have done that. Unsuccessfully for lions and successfully for leopard. Wild lions and leopards are incredibly smart and wary animals and baiting them is far from easy.

Hunting is made up of three parts of luck to one part of skill. It's not hunting if you don't have the slightest doubt about whether the animal can or will be taken.

It's also not a question of cost. If I can't afford to do it right, then I'll pass. I wouldn't buy a cheap, counterfeit version of anything and feel, much less act, as though I had done the real thing, as these canned lion "hunters" always do.

quote:

Call me a purist or worse if you like, but this shooting of captive-bred, semi-tame, penned lions is not hunting.

Dito
Seloushunter

Forgot to add to my above rambling that for me neither bait nor fence appeals.

Guys,

Perhaps I've missed it but I have not seen any comment on the fact that the lion you may track on an enclosure is not the same animal that you shoot over bait in a wilder place.

I've been to the breeding facilities and believe me these animals bare very little resemblance to wild lions. They have not learned to hunt nor could they defend themselves against another wild lion. The wildness has been literally bred out of these animals. Of course they could be dangerous but to compare them to a wild lion is to compare my golden retriever to a wild wolf.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not on any moral high horse here and if a hunter wants to take a lion by any legal mean I think it is fine. I just don't want folks to think that the lion that is killed in an enclosure in RSA is remotely the same animals as one shot in the wild.

As for lion hunting over bait being easy or not challenging I must say I have found it the most difficult of all African hunting with an enormous amount of variables determining your success or failure. Also I have found when the lions do come to the bait that it is one of the most thrilling of all hunting experiences.

Mark

Very well said Mark

I am curious about something regarding this subject. Wonder how many lions are in the pipline subject to these new regulations and what will happen to them?

Mark, I definitely agree with you in regard to PEN RAISED Lions. But, what about the few Lions in RSA that are free ranging and self-sustaining on high fenced properites?

By self-sustaining I mean they catch ALL their own food, have NO supplemental feeding, and have NO human contact whatsoever. They are just simply wild Lions inside a large high fenced reserve. I know there aren't many like this and most Lions in RSA are pen raised, but not ALL. I am just wondering why people keep putting these Lions in the same category as pen raised Lions. I understand if some of you don't agree with hunting behind high fence, but I don't think it's fair to put all RSA Lions in the category of "canned" or "pen raised". I would NEVER hunt a "canned" or "pen raised" Lion, but I would absolutely hunt a Lion on a place like Pilanesberg National Park where the Lions are self-sustaining. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. However, I do expect that everyone here on AR should have a good enough head on their shoulders to recognize that pen raised, hand fed Lions are NOT the same as self-sustaining Lions. Anyone with a brain should be able to comprehend the difference. Who agrees?

There is no such thing as a truly wild lion anywhere in South Africa...... at the very best, they are very well habituated to humans and vehicles and that makes them a very different proposition to a truly wild lion such as are found in the true wilderness areas of Africa. Sure they're still dangerous but they're a very different proposition to their truly wild counterparts.........It's only when you've experienced the difference between the two that you realise how large that difference really is......

What is really under discussion here are ethics and unfortunately, in this world there are some people who are prepared to alter their ethics if the price is right. If that were not the case, SA wouldn't have ever had to introduce the new legislation.....

Shakari,

I'm not suggesting that self-sustaining Lions in RSA are the same as wild Lions in Tanzania. I am simply saying they are not the same as pen raised Lions. Maybe you can say they are half way in between. Also, ethics are not universal. Everyone has their own ethics system. So, it's not fair for ANYONE to say what is ethical and what is not.

To everyone else,

Personally, I am in agreement with Tony Sanchez-Arino on the subject of wild Lions. They should completely stop hunting wild Lions for 3-4 years and let the numbers grow. However, there could still be Lion hunting conducted on large reserves like Pilanesberg (for free roaming, self-sustaining Lions). This would help take some of the pressure off the truly wild Lions. I don't understand why this concept is so difficult for some to understand. PLEASE USE THE BRAIN GOD GAVE YOU!! It's very useful if it's used properly.

Seems to me it's not me that's failing to use my brain. For example, you've shown that you've read the TSA theory, but what other Lion management theories have you read and what do you think of them? - or dare I say it, how many times have you visited Africa and how much experience do you have of live Lions and their management?

I don't profess to be the most experienced Professional Hunter in the world, but I reckon I've probably had at least a reasonable amount of experience...... I've certainly been doing it for a good few years and here's just a few examples of my experience.











Personally, I don't really agree with TSA completely any more than I agree with the Packer black nose theory. (perhaps you'd like to give us your opinion on that as well) - and I think a much better way to manage, increase and improve our Lion populations would be for every single African country to instigate a strict quota, sex and minimum age system for all Lions.

BTW, I wasn't criticising your or any other individuals ethics at all, I was just making a general comment........

Shakari

As an in-field hunting journalist myself, I am in awe of the man who was holding the camera and took the third pic. That is one hell of a brave man. I have been hunting with various operations for quite a few years now, and have witnessed charges by all of the big five with the exception of lion. A couple of my PH buddies have experienced lion charges, and the stories they tell are hair raising to say the least. I have nightmares about facing a lion charge. Hats off to your cameraman.

Dave

David,

All the pics were taken by myself..... but I'm glad you like them. I've managed to collect quite a portfolio over the years..... I sell the occasional pic to mags and books but don't go out of my way to do so...

For the bottom pic, I actually had my lens in his mouth and the camera shake was caused by the fact his brother had sneaked up behind me and licked the back of my neck as I hit the button........ Sounds like BS, I know, but it's absolutely true..... but as I'm sure you know, there's always a few tricks in every trade.

Shakari,

I didn't mean for it to sound like you weren't using your brain. I put that in the second paragraph. I edited my post above to make it more clear. To answer your questions: I (along with my family) am going on my FIRST trip to Africa next year. We will be hunting plainsgame in Namibia for 21 days (actually hunting for 18 and touring Etosha for 3). I never claimed to be an expert on Lion management. I'm just trying to get my point across about high fencing. I may not have any experience with Lions behind high fences, but I do have quite a bit with other animals behind high fences here in Texas. I am of the opinion that we should all have an open mind. We should either have an open minded discussion, or no discussion at all. I am more than willing to listen to anyone who wants to challenge my views, in fact I encourage anyone to challenge them. I hope someone can explain to me why people are putting self-sustaining high fenced Lions in the same category as pen-raised, hand fed Lions.

The only self sustaining high fenced Lions in SA are those in the game parks, and as I said, they're extremely well habituated to humans and vehicles. The only time they're legally hunted is when they either cross over into private reserves such as adjoin the KNP or in the controlled hunting areas such as is found in Mkuze Park in KZN. - As I said, there are no truly wild Lions in SA such as are found in the true wilderness areas of Africa.

If habituated Lions behaved the same way as truly wild Lions, I wouldn't have been able to take those photographs above...

Eland Slayer

I agree with you - they should not be put in the same category, they are like chalk and cheese. Here in the Save Valley we hunt lions in a fence. Sure, the fence surrounds a million acres, but it's still a fence. And believe me, these lions are very wild lions. There is little difference between the lions here and the ones we hunt in the Zambezi Valley, except that these ones are bigger! We are hunting a lion here in June this year and I will keep you posted.

Shakari

As I said, I am in awe. But please explain about the third picture. Is it really coming? Surely not, given that you were snapping away?

OK, I'll give a trade secret away....... Yes, he really was coming for me and he was as mad as hell, but we weren't hunting him at all.

I knew he was just a tad psycho and I was on a platform that I knew he couldn't get up to...... The platform was pretty high and the sloping terrain made it look like we were on a similar level. (took it with a sigma 38 - 300 lens I think). I just let him see me a few times until he lost his rag and then grabbed the pics when he charged.....As I said, he was mad as hell when he came for me but he was a lot madder when he realised he wasn't able to get to me...

Shakari,

Don't hold me to it, but I believe there are also a few privately owned farms in RSA that have small, self-sustained Lion populations. Is this information wrong? I know I have seen a couple places for sale in RSA that were high fenced and over 10,000 acres that had Lion populations on them. I'm willing to bet that even if some of these Lions are supplemental fed, they are not completely helpless in finding their own food as well. What are your opinions?

Ask yourself this bwana.... if a Lion eats an average of 4 impala a week and an impala costs let's say, US$100 a pop and a Lion lives in the area for let's say, 5 years..... and that Lion can't tell the difference between a US$100 impala and a US$750 nyala or a US$500 zebra, how many landowners in SA could afford not to feed the Lions some kind of cheaper supplemental food.... then assume that there almost cetainly won't be one Lion in an area but around a dozen......

I'm not suggesting there are absolutely none but I will say there are bloody few places that could afford to do it..... and those that can, will have to make the Lions pay some kind of contribution to their upkeep by taking tourists etc to see them... which then habituates the Lions to vehicles and people.

Eland, I got no bones in this discusion.. Never hunted Lions, Most likely never will. I will have to be satisfied with walking and hunting along side them in Zambia and Zimbabwe chasing the same buffalo herds... Many of your words ring true.. But your sounding like the Ends Justify the Means and your trying to put salve on the festering wound this Lion hunt you want to do is puting in your gut.. Are you trying to convince us.....or.... yourself??

Good point Shakari. Acreage aside, I guess that's the difference between the Save Valley and SA game farms - here we don't feed them. There would never be a need to anyway, they feed themselves very well, on $750 nyala!! And we also have the wild dogs to contend with!

David,

I was talking about SA and not the Save conservancy which I appreciate is very different. - It may have it's own problems, but those I've mentioned about SA is not one of them.

Glad to hear you've got wild dogs there - ain't they great! - They might make the hunting harder sometimes but I reckon it's well worth having them there just for the spectacle. I've got a great piece of video somewhere from the Selous. I spotted a pack in the grass and started calling with a predator call - they instantly went crazy and ran like hell towards us...... jeez, were they suprised when they saw the Toyota there!

BTW, the next time you see Roger, would you please send my best to him...... thanks.

David,

And that is what makes the Save so special. Without the lions, leopards and wild dogs it would not be the wild place that it is.

Mark

MopaneMike,

Make no mistake, I would love to hunt Lion someday, but it most likely won't be anytime soon. I am not "trying to put salve" on anything. And here's how much I care about what people think of me and my goals/opinions: 0, repeat, 0. I don't have to convince myself of anything. Many are severely misconstruing this topic and turning it into something else. I refuse to debate with narrow minded, irrational people. This is not directed towards anyone in particular, I'm just making a blanket statement.

Shakari

I know you weren't talking about the Save, it was me that brought it up and, yes, you cannot compare it to an SA game farm. I wasn't actually suggesting that there are any similarities, just making the point that, although it is massive and as wild as it gets, it does have a perimeter fence. God help us if it didn't. Yes, the wild dogs are great, very much a part of it all. I see Roger every day and will most certainly pass on your regards. He is usually the first guy I see in the morning, at 5 a.m. roll call. I won't pass on your regards then - I've found that it's a good idea to leave the small talk till mid-morning!

Mark

I hear you. Isn't this valley awesome.Each and every day spent here is a mindblow for me. I guess you don't know, but my great, great uncle (Lucas Bridges) and great grandfather (Despard Bridges)were the first Europeans to settle here, in 1918. That's how long my family has been in the Save Valley. One of Despard Bridges managers in the 1920's was a man named James (Jimmy) Whittall.....

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
MopaneMike,

Make no mistake, I would love to hunt Lion someday, but it most likely won't be anytime soon. I am not "trying to put salve" on anything. And here's how much I care about what people think of me and my goals/opinions: 0, repeat, 0. I don't have to convince myself of anything. Many are severely misconstruing this topic and turning it into something else. I refuse to debate with narrow minded, irrational people. This is not directed towards anyone in particular, I'm just making a blanket statement.

My apologies for misunderstanding.. PM if you feel I should delete my post..

Mike

David, Not to change the subject.... Ok breifly change it.. I thought the Save had a huge invasion by those brave veterans of freedom and they had taken it over??

No Mike, that is not true. Rumours abound and we have been under siege for years, but we continue to retain firm control. They have taken over certain peripheral areas, but we still have complete control of the vast majority of the land. The affected area is south of the Turgwe river - in the north there are no squatters. And in the South there is still much 'unliberated land' which is being worked by the legit owners. We are hunting as much as we ever did and enjoying as much success as we ever did. Check out trophies taken by Roger Whittall safaris last year in a couple of threads I posted recently. They are still on this page. We do have problems, but we have it contained, that's the bottom line

I've never been there but have seen footage of lions hunted at Tam safaris in the Eastern Cape of RSA.They looked pretty self supporting to me as well as managed behind fence properly.