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I've read quite a bit about pressure issues with the 416 RemMag for African hunting, specifically the PH proficiency tests as outlined in African Hunter magazine a while back. My question - what kind of velocity can one get from this round without pushing pressure beyond a conservative amount? I don't want any issues with pressure causing sticky extraction. What's a conservative velocity guideline? | ||
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| one of us |
Stu, the .416 Rem is loaded no hotter than all the remainder of the magnum calibers (.338 Win Mag, .300 Wby, .300 Win Mag etc) and not far above the hotter "standard" numbers (e.g. .270 Win). These cartridges go to Africa, and other hot places, all the time, and nobody worries too much about pressure. The .416 Rem achieves .416 Rigby speeds from a smaller case due to higher pressures. On the other hand, very few people experience problems with sensible pressures in the smaller magnum calibers... I don't think this is something to be overly worried about. The "standard" velocity for the .416 Rem Mag (or a .416 Rigby) is around 2400 fps with a 400 grs bullet. According to the Hodgdon manual you can get those kind of velocities out of a 24" barrel between 46000 and 54000 CUP, depending on your powder. So I guess if you want to be really conservative, you load for 2350 fps, and no animal in the world will be able to tell the difference. - mike | |||
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mho Quote: There's a lot of truth in this.....I've used very high pressure loads in hot places (over 100 deg F) and as long as you don't allow the ammo to get so hot that you can't hold the rounds in your hands.....like on the dashboard of a vehicle where the windshield can magnify the sunlight on the cartridges.....There's been no problems at all. The abmient heat of 100 deg F isn't the problem at all but I've had occasion to discover some ammo left to reflection of direct sunlight can be so hot that I cannot pick them up......this CAN cause serious problems.......I'm not sure if the same issue applies to cases like the .416 Rigby or not. | |||
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I would love to see real data on the effect of cartridge/powder temperature versus chamber pressure. Cartridges may get to the point of being too hot to handle, but compared to the combustion temperature, I somewhat doubt the the initial temperature could really have much effect on the chamber pressure. If the powder combustion characteristics are temperature dependent than that is a different story. Have any of the powder manufacturers substantiated this with any data? | |||
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I guess choosing between the Rigby and the Rem is pretty much a matter of taste. I here that the Wby kicks a LOT harder -so one could just as well get a LOTT!  | |||
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Will.....logic is on your side on this one.....I'll admit my "assumption" of increased chamber pressure caused by cartridges being very hot stems from shooting cartridges like .22-250, .220 Swift and .25-06 on prairie dog towns. In the 60s I would actually camp for three days on a prairie dog town.....finding one 1,000 acres wasn't too hard to do and obtaining permission to shoot was easy to get. Temps on the 4th of july on those towns was often 100 degrees and one year 106 degrees. I discovered that pressure signs escalated as the sun heated the ammo. I had been warned about letting it get hot in the sun and started keeping the ammo in a cooler.....but sure as the sun rises in the east the primers was blown, seriously flattened and all manner of things correlated to hot cartridges. Worse of all was those that sat in a hot chamber a few minutes before firing. Make no mistake about it.....there was no controlled experiment.....no pressure barrel.....no record keeping.....so you're right in challenging that assertion. I assumed....there's that word again.....that it was the cause of heat as I'd been warned about it by so very many folks. Now.....I too am interested in someone that can offer something other than unrecorded empiracle evidence. | |||
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| One of Us |
Stu, If you insist on getting 2400 fps from a .416 Rem with 400 grain bullets, you can only do it with high pressures. The .416 Rigby achieves the same result with low pressures. Remington's early factory ammo for the .416 Rem. tried to achive 2400 fps and there were a lot of stuck cases as a result. Current Rem factory ammo is downloaded to avoid this problem. Also note that the typical hunter going to Africa hunts during the African winter months when high pressure is not such a problem. But during the summer months, it's a different story. | |||
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Quote: Hmmm, I have a slight problem with the expressions "high pressure" and "low pressure" in that reply. I could probably have lived with "higher" and "lower pressure" - but without quantification, what does "high" and "low" mean?? We all know that the .416 Rem works at higher pressures than the Rigby. But is that pressure a problem?? I don't own instruments to measure pressure, so I rely on what reloading manuals tell me. As we all know, these numbers may match your personal rifle/load or they may not. However, when the Hodgdon manual indicates that they used H4350 to get 2400 fps (2395 really) with a 400 grs bullet in a 24" barrel at 46400 CUP, then that seems a good place to start, pressure wise at least. In the end, regardless of what Stu does, he'll need to test the loads in his own rifle, and see whether he gets any pressure indication. Any amount of anecdotal evidence is not going to remove the need for that exercise. I personally think that if the Hodgdon pressures are anywhere close to being realistic, there will be ample room before any amount of hot weather will cause sticky extraction. But, see for yourself. Btw, hot weather can be simulated pretty well by storing rounds in an MTM box, and leaving them to warm up in the sun. - mike | |||
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I have been in the Omay Valley during October when I was more concerned about my ammo cooking off rather than being concerned about high chamber pressure. High ambient temperatures do have a direct effect on powder burn rates. The faster the burn rate, the higher the chamber pressure. Some powders are more heat tolerant, however, you can easily see 100 fps difference between a 32 degree day and a 80 degree day. When the temps hit a 120, all hell breaks loose - mostly your brain cells. And for the record, you gotta max out a .416 Rem to hit 2400 fps. The Rigby is not even breathing hard at these velocities. | |||
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More anecdotal evidence. I load my 416 Rem to 2400 fps, and sometimes more, and have never seen any signs of the undefined "high" pressure, nor ever had any problems with them in Africa. When my boy was using his 416 Rem a couple years ago, we just bought some Rem. factory softs (400 gr. Swift?), rather than handloading them, and they chronographed right at 2400 fps. It must be 416 Rem. envy by the Rigby and Dakota crowd! | |||
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Do I remember correctly that the british cartridges were loaded to lower pressures because cordite powder is more sensitive to temperature ? | |||
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That rumor was started in Man Magnum Magazine by someone who simply overloaded it or had a tight chamber, failure to trim cases; or who knows what they did...Some claimed the problem with Factory ammo, in which case they should have had their gun checked out, not the ammo. All the 416 ammo I have encountered was rather mild and clocked at closer to 2300 FPS than 2400.... I have been using the 416 Rem. in Africa from the Sudan to Capetown for many years, and I load it to 2400 FPS and have never had an inkling of trouble... Some folks can have pressure problems with all their guns, usually because the failed reloading 101.. I hear a lot about this horrible African heat, well guess what, we have Arizona, West Texas, California and few other spots that will give anything Africa has to offer a run for the money. I was raised near Presidio Texas and ranched there for some time and I shot a lot in 110 to as much as 130 degree heat. It is one of two hottest places in the USA. Bottom line is the rumor is BS... | |||
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Will - The Rem is a wannabe and will never measure up to the likes of Rigby & Dakota. But for old men and young boys, it's a perfect cartridge. Mete - Yep, the Rigby has legs far beyond its original load data. | |||
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I conducted a few tests on powder burn rate vs temperature. Bob Hagel did an extensive study himself. The most temperature insentive powders are the Hodgdon Extreme powders; in stick powders, IMR is pretty temperature sensitive. Ball powder is the worst in terms of temperature sensitivity. | |||
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How recent were these tests? Would they still apply to the powders available today? I'd be real interested in seeing this data, if it is available. In my case, it's for the opposite end of the scale - how does a powder in a good load developed in the summer behave when it gets below zero? I have seen weird things happen when using H380 (a ball powder) in my 308 as temps change. maxman | |||
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| Moderator |
Any attempt to load a bullet of a given weight to a given velocity in a small case is bound to incur more incidents of high pressure than would a large case. In this instance, getting 2,400fps from the Rem casing is simply not the gimme it is from that of the Rigby, across a wide spectrum of rifles. Pushing the Rigby too hard would create the same dilemma. Rifles vary and Remington, in trying to provide its' beancounters a competitive 2,400 fps, has placed itself at some risk and such may play a part in why they seem to have walked away. It's a wonderful round, whether or not your particular rifle provides this much vaunted threshold of velocity. Keep a close eye on the factory stuff, brew your handloads without a # in mind and keep your barrel clean. The .416 Remington will do the rest. | |||
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I go away to work for the day and come back to bunch of great answers! Keep 'm coming! For the record a Rigby is not going to be an option. I already have an action suitable for the Remington round and a Blackburn drop box mag and bottom metal also set-up for the Remington. Mike, I understand your analogy with other high pressure rounds which are routinely taken to Africa, but they're not usually used to shoot things that go "bitey bitey" and "stompy stompy� . The rifle I have planned will end up with a 22" barrel. I'm guessing 2400fps will be a bit optimistic whilst maintaining my goal of low pressure. 2300fps will be more than adequate anyway. I don't have ballistic calculation software. Can anyone hazard a guess what the impact velocity at 50yds and 100yds will be if I start with 400gr Woodleighs (BC 0.329) with MV 2300 and MV 2350? | |||
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Reloader 15 is also temperature insensitive. This came about as some government requirement for their contracts. And Reloader 15 is a very good powder for the 416 Rem. I have shot 400 grain bullets powered by 81 grains of RE-15 when the gun was so hot it burned your cheek and hands and there was no indication of high pressure. Those loads gave just a hair more than 2400 fps. Rigby lovers, rumours, Remington bashers and old wives tales make for a tiresome mess. | |||
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Quote: And what would you say to guys who had to hammer their bolt open due to a stuck case? | |||
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Barometric pressure? This gets more wierd as the posts increase. Let's see. The 416 Rem operates in the neighborhood of 55,000 psi which I assume is gauge pressure. So we add atmospeheric (barometric) pressure, say at seal level, 14.696 psi, so now the 416 Rem is up to 55,014.696 psia (absolute pressure). That explains them hot loads! (If you ever look at the 416 Rem. rounds that most PH's and wannabe PH's carry, they are a mess of different bullets, primers, probably of unknown powder, origin, and date. With all due respect to Ganyana, what the hell does any of this have to do with MY .416 Rem. cartridges???  ) | |||
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Quote: You mean this set of cartridges? Quote: Quote: Great plan. I'd love to have a short barrelled DG rifle (Ray won't agree ). As somebody commented with great sense above, don't work towards a particular velocity number. Stay safe, and the animals won't know any difference between 2400, 2300 or whatever you can safely achieve. The shorter barrel may cost you a bit, but depending on the rifle in question other factors might be more important (chamber size, actual bore etc etc).Quote: Here is a very servicable piece of free ballistics software. Point Blank Ballistics Software - mike | |||
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Bill - You just keep repeating to yourself, �The .416 Rem is king, the .416 Rem is king�. The rest of us will keep shooting our Rigby�s and Dakota�s... Don�t worry, my grandfather is senile too... | |||
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Nickudu, I have lots of time on my hands and therefore I have an excuse for getting sucked into these non-issue topics. But YOU should know better! | |||
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My pressure testing gun was just finished today. I will be ordering a 416 Barrel in the next week. When it comes in I will be testing factory Remington and handloaded ammunition at 30 degrees F, 70 degrees F and 110 degrees F. I have plenty of factory 350 grain Swift and 400 grain Barnes solid ammunition, but I need some factory 400 grain Swift ammunition to test. Does anybody have some to sell, trade or donate? I will publish the test results here first. Thank you, JCN PS I'm hoping to get some of the early 1990's vintage ammunition as well to see if it has been downloaded as of late. | |||
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LD - I have a boatload of 410gr Woodleigh Weldcores if interested. I will be happy to donate a batch for the cause. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Nick, anyone who thinks a good .416 Remington is best left at home due to pressure problems had better leave their .300 Weatherby or .375 H&H at home for the same reasons. If this was such a big, bad, widespread problem, the only bolt-gun type cartridges that would be prudent to take on safari would be a .416 Rigby or .404 Jeffery for the big stuff, and either a 7X57 or (and now we're really pushing the threshold at 50,000 CUP!) the .30-06. Not that those would be bad combinations at all, but man, how many .300 Weatherbys, etc., etc. have made it to Africa and back time and again without any sort of problem whatsoever due to pressures? If the .416 Remington is so volatile that you need to keep the ammo on ice, then ammo for the iconic (British don't you know.....) .300 H&H and .375 H&H (at only 1,000 CUP less than the .416 Rem.) better be kept in the cooler as well! AD | ||
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Thanks ZD, I'll send you a PM. JCN There are very experienced and knowledgeable people on both sides of this debate. I have a 416 Rigby and a 416 Remington, so I guess I have a dog on either side. Rather than debate I will capture the data, and see what it shows. | |||
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If there is any effect it will be the powder, so keep track of it, as I know you will. | |||
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| Moderator |
Allen ... are you agreeing with me or yelling at me? Can't tell. MHO - Thanks for taking time to read my post. It's the expectation of and the desire for the 2,400fps plateau that creates the problem and handloaders, rifle manufacturers and ammunition makers all contribute. Load your best load @ safe pressures and screw the velocity #'s. The Remington can not give 2,400 at safe pressures with all bullets in all rifles. Accept what you get .. it'll work just fine. | |||
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I owned a Rem 700 in 416 Remington not all that long after the were introduced. I had 40 factory rounds that were loaded with the 400 grain Swift. They averaged 2410 f/s. With the Australian powder ADI 2208 (now sold as Varget by Hodgdon) 2400 f/s with 400 grain Hornadies was a fairly mild load and I was able to go over 2500 F/S. Of course as everyone knows the Australian outback in summer time is real snow shoe country My guess is that the pressure/416 Rem problems can be traced back to Rem 700 rifles. Quite often the Rem 700 extraction cam is chewed out and quite often the bolt handle is not correctly attached so as to achieve the full primary extraction and all this adds up to very poor primary extraction. Mike | |||
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WILL, I don't know what I know, these days. Ya know what I mean? Mike .. indeed, so many factors involved. I had a .416 that fooled me bigtime, first time at the range. Knocked the snot out of me with a "book" starting load! After 3 or 4 shots and one sticky extraction, I set up the chrono. The 400 grain Hornady softpoint was doing 2,665! In the end, the rifle gave around 2,480 with that bullet. The best "Africa Type" loading with that rifle was 2,380 with the 400 "X" and it took molycoating to get that. When the blue coated "XLC's" came out, I found myself out there again, trying to get that friggin' 2,400. No way ... and no matter, as the loading was hell on buffalo. Looking back, I asked myself, who the hell started this 2,400 BS? | |||
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| <allen day> |
Nick, I'm agreeing with you, but I'm also being ignored by others. I wonder why? AD | ||
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I'm not ignoring you Allen. Hell, I've been following you around for six months waiting for you to slip on a banana peel so I can swipe your Echol's rifle(s). Send me some early Remington factory ammo in 400 Swift to test and I'll adore you. I'll also tell you the exact pressure at 30, 70, and 110 degrees. JCN | |||
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I assume that whether or not the gun was equipped with controlled round feed has no bearing on the pressure...... | |||
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One year I had a US hunter hunt buffalo with us and he brought with a 378 Weatherby. He was a very dilligent hunter who did all the right stuff and preparation including his ammo and gun setup. At the pre hunt shooting and checking of the sighting of his rifle we noted all his brass were splitting at the shoulder....... interesting as this never happened when he was shooting the rifle and loads in his home state of Washington. Why would this be? My guess is the time differences between loading and shooting. For example, if you full length size and then immediately shoot and do this over and over then as long as the primer pocket holds up you can go all day on one case. But load and shoot every 3 months and you can encounter split case or partially separated cases after a few shots. Mike | |||
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The gov't tests that had them choosing RL15 involved a lot more than just temperature insensitivity. I have not tested RL15, so I will withhold making a comment. John Barsness (how come he never got to be Field and Stream shooting editor?) tested RL powders and I remember him telling me that RL22 and 25 were very sensitive. I think RL15 turned out pretty well. The barometric pressure is real, though for hunting conditions, even at very very long ranges, it is negligible. In Korea McConnell was able to engage targets at 1000 yards, a fact that he attributed to the less dense air at the altitudes jets flew. Seems everyone was still thinking in terms of P51s and WWII. | |||
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| Moderator |
Alf - "why would this be?" I'd consider it infinitely more likely his loads were simply too hot to begin with, than solely attributable to ambien temps. You did say all his cases were splitting?! Other possibilities, such as leaving ammo on the dash and/or an uncased rifle exposed to the sun seem unlikely, from what you say of his attention to detail. That .378 burns a lot of powder .. I wonder at what temps his hunting loads were finalized in Washington State. Many a problem is attributed to components ... never the assembler. Another thought .. highly compressed, uncrimped bullets can "walk". I often leave my dies set up to reset such loadings once or twice, or even the next day, until the movement stops. Bullets edgeing up closer to the lands can make pressures soar. Not so likely a possibility here, I suppose, with the Weatherby chamber. | |||
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