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On this forum, in the wake of the Nixon and llamapacker fiasco, it was recently suggested that a contract be created, drafted from the client's perspective, to better protect the client's interests in his dealings with a safari outfitter. Such a contract would include warranties and representations made by the outfitter going to matters such as: quotas, licenses, permits, hunting area, legal PH, export of the trophies, paying all trophy fees, etc. etc. etc. etc. SO, from YOUR experiences, what terms and conditions do you believe need to be in such a safari contract to protect the client? Remember that we are trying to protect ourselves in our dealings with the outfitter AS WELL AS the governments and agencies of the safari host country and the hunter's home country. With your input, I will (as time allows) work on this document. When it is completed, I will gladly provide it to anyone that would like a copy. Will J. Parks, III | ||
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area to be hunted date of arrival in camp first hunting day last hunting day date of departure from camp exact daily rates exact trophy fees legal hunting and species permits must be obtained well in advance of the hunt in the case that permits are not available when client arrives in camp client should get a full refund all extras medical air rescue charters and transfer details meet and greet services a line needs to state that in the case extra charges are levied not outlined in the contract these will not be accepted a line needs to be in there that states if the government of the country in which the safari takes place increases any rates the client reserves the option to choose to accept the new rates or cancel and recieve a FULL refund of all deposits. extra animals if available at what cost dip and pack fee estimate based on number of animals killed these are just some of the things that i see and hear being misunderstood , we include all of the above in our contracts and have had no complaints to date "The greatest threat to our wildlife is the thought that someone else will save it” www.facebook.com/ivancartersafrica www.ivancarterwca.org www.ivancarter.com ivan@ivancarter.com | |||
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I'll be the 1st to sign up for a final copy, Will.. I've only had one hunt where a contract was NOT drawn up, and wouldn't ya know it, expectations were not met, permits not issued, etc. It won't be happening again. | |||
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Here is a start. http://forums.accuratereloadin...22101325/m/869101261  Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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While the contract may be a good idea, I have signed my last ten page contract to go hunting anywhere. When I need my attorney to explain my legal risk on a DG hunt I have a problem. No problem with rates, cancellations, and even I am responsible for my stupid actions as are you and it should fit nicely in about one page. Handshakes are even better. This may narrow down my hunting experiences in the future but I have had enough. | |||
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I'm a retired lawyer. I hunted in Africa for buff. I made my arrangements with a US based company (who was not the outfitter). It happened that everything worked out perfectly - but, do you know,I, a lawyer, never bothered to work out the "legal" implications? I operated as most people do - Did I trust the people I was dealing with? (The US company I dealt with (Cabela's) never informed me that there had been a sudden change in Zimbabwe customs forms - but my Zimbabwe based outfitter had the forms delivered to me by Special Delivery (US)before I left the States. It comes down to some part, dumb luck (that you stay away from the thieves) and a bigger part I have always followed -that the vast majority of people are not thieves. It's was just that simple for me always, I admit -and whether by sheer dumb luck or whatever, I still have my clothes, at least, today.  | |||
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Written guarantee that you and your party will be the only ones in camp, if that is what was promised verbally, and how you will be compensated if this provision is breached. | |||
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Protection to the client with language as such..."in the event the trophy fees increase from the date of contract execution, client will not be required to pay increased trophy fees.' That's the whole premise of booking early because you get the costs locked into your contract of that said current year. Hunters have rights too! Also for the countries such as Botswana and Ethiopia (and others) that require an individual license fee for each species prior to hunting them...what recourse does the client have in the event he/she doesn't harvest the said species? The outfitter often benefits by re-selling the permit to a future hunter who arrives in camp later that season. That's double dipping. There should be some kickback to the client in the event outfitter is able to re-sell the species license. Anyone agree? Moja | |||
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I try to make sure all the details -- costs, areas, dates, PH, listing of costs not covered, etc. -- are set out in one or more emails which are then specifically incorporated into the safari contract of the outfitter or safari co. and attached to the signed agreement. Mainly just to ensure we are all on the same page and if a question arises we have it on paper. Take a copy with you. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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While I know that my word is good and binding, in South Africa it is an unarguable legal requirement to have a contract [in duplicate] signed by both the client and the hunting outfitter before the onset of the hunt. Any client that hunts any game in any province of South Africa without first signing a contract, called a Remuneration Agreement in our Nature Conservation Ordinances, with the hunting outfitter is hunting illegally. Here is an exact quote from my standard RA that I would insist on if I were to hunt as a client: The client is specifically guaranteed that no animal offered for hunting has been captured and recently delivered to the hunting concession, i.e. the animals are not “put and take” trophies at all. I'm quite happy to also include a statement to the effect that if the client can even cast reasonable doubt about the status of a trophy as a "put & take" animal, then no trophy fee will be payable. Now watch the hunting outfitters who regularly and on large scale practice "put & take" shooting complain bitterly about this one!  But, to echo Terry Carr's wise words: "If it important to you, put it in the contract!" It is important to me to have my clients know that they are (were) hunting real wild animals and not the "canned" variety, so I put it in my contract. My clients are happy to sign it! In good hunting. Andrew McLaren Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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""Also for the countries such as Botswana and Ethiopia (and others) that require an individual license fee for each species prior to hunting them...what recourse does the client have in the event he/she doesn't harvest the said species? The outfitter often benefits by re-selling the permit to a future hunter who arrives in camp later that season. That's double dipping. There should be some kickback to the client in the event outfitter is able to re-sell the species license."" Debatable - Some countries allow you to shoot on credit. A hunter should not expect any form of guarantee on harvesting the game - unless it falls into the 'put and take' category where I suppose some kind of demands could be made. On the other hand there are instances where the client turns down a Lion because it is not within the "MGM" specs or the Buffalo is either smaller than the one he already has on his wall or it has to be over 45 to qualify - how would you react to that sort of situation?  | |||
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US based agent for service of process and designating jurisdiction for disputes in the client's local county. At least you could get a judgment, then worry about how to collect it. ______________________________ "Are you gonna pull them pistols,...or whistle Dixie??" Josie Wales 1866 | |||
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Being a lawyer, I would be interested in a copy, thanks. It also might be something that could be discussed at next year's Wildlife Law Seminar at the SCI Convention. | |||
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I would like to see some kind of breakdown of how screwed you have to be in a safari experience before its worth drawing your lawyer and going to town. | |||
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I can tell this is going to be interesting. Again, I am not trying to rewrite the basic client - outfitter safari contract. I am trying to come up with a supplemental set of promises from the safari company to client regaring the hunt being carried out in a legal manner, etc, etc, etc. Keep the ideas coming. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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The only purpose served by international contracts for hunting purposes are avoidance of doubt and misunderstanding. And thence possession of the moral high ground in case of an obvious breach. Enforcement of any such contract is problematic to the point of being illusory. Trust is the key. Without well-founded trust, promises are worthless. One must get references, speak with them, learn from them, and hunt only with those in whom others have trusted without mishap. And with those in whom the hunter has himself reposed a purely requited trust. Due diligence is and can be the hunter's only savior. And even then, salvation comes only sometimes. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I had two 'partners' try to screw me out of $25,000 in 2001 or so. My attorney told me it wasn't worth going after. And that is the good ol U S of A. A better question is "Does anyone know anyone that collected any money after suing for a guided hunting trip gone wrong?" I would imagine those that have recovered money would comprise a very small club. About the best you can hope for is a list of answers to your questions (such as the ones T. Carr suggested) that you can use to clear up any misunderstandings and hope the folks you are dealing with are decent and value their reputation. If they are in it for a fast buck, you are gonna be screwed. I saw that happen for just a few thousand dollars among some duck hunting guides, landowners and clients that lived within the same state. Imagine the stakes and temptations when tens of thousands of dollars are at stake when the two parties are halfway around the world from each other after the deal is done. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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+1. As a lawyer myself this approaches heresy, but I really do not see a client-oriented booking contract as the solution to hunts gone bad. There is no contract that is going to protect you when it comes to enforcing it against an operator half way around the world in a country where connections are key. And even if enforcement was an option, you would end up spending several times the cost of the hunt to try and enforce it. You need to know who you are booking with, do your due diligence and have faith in them. If you want to do a contract on top of that, fine, but I would not be expecting a contract to protect me. I also wonder how receptive successful operators are going to be to a client-provided contract that is 10-15 pages long versus their standard contract. I guess it depends on just how hungry they are at the time for a booking. Mike | |||
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Pretty much my view. With a good agent, operator, or safari co., if it is spelled out then they should ensure that is how it happens. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Uh contracts are great...but lets realistically talk about an ability to enforce and get a remedy. Once you get to Africa not a whole lot you can do if things get changed on you. Once you complete your hunt...not a whole lot you can do if extras have been added. The client's only leverage is to hold back a large portion of the payment until they return to the US. Once in the US if the Safari Operator comes up with extra charges, the client's only levergae is to say keep my trophies I'll have ot live with the pictures as my memories. The hardest thing in a commercial contract is to "make somebody do something". You can have all the contracts you want but at the end of the day are you really going to pursue a court action in Africa to order an operator to perform as stated in teh contract. The only value of the contract will be to "prove your case" in the court of public opinion such as a forum as this. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?[/] [i] Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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To our AR Attorneys (active and retired), I have a good and very wealthy friend who would book his hunts only in his residence. The Professional Hunter,Booking Agent, would come to his home. He said if the hunt went South, the lawsuit could then be filed in the client's home county, because that is where the contract was signed and deposit paid. What is your opinion of his strategy? Is this true, that the jurisdiction would be in the client's home county? What about a contract signed at SCI or Dallas, does the jurisdiction fall into those respective counties? Thank you for all your professional expertise in this matter. Kathi kathi@wildtravel.net 708-425-3552 "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |||
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Kathi, Venue and personal jurisdiction rules vary somewhat from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. However, in the example that you gave, someone booking a contract in the county of their residence with the PH and/or booking agent there to sign too, so that the contract is concluded in the county, that is going to be sufficient in most instances that I am aware of to establish venue in that county and to assert personal jurisdiction over the individuals. That's the good news. The bad news is that having venue and having personal jurisdiction just means you can sue the person and get jurisdiction over them in that county -- it does not mean you can haul them into that county or collect on a judgment. For example, you sue the PH and serve him by mail or publication, he fails to answer and you get a default judgment. All you have is a piece of paper. Unless the PH owns property in the county that you might be able to attach, you have to take that judgment to wherever the PH is, hope it is a jurisdiction that will respect and enforce the judgment and collect there. Big difference when you live here and the PH lives in Zimbabwe trying to turn that piece of paper into dollars -- not even sure that Zimbabwe would respect a US judgment. Same logic would apply to a contract signed at DSC or SCI, you would probably have venue and jurisdiction -- but that is a long way from money. Class dismissed. Mike | |||
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Kathi, With respect to the strategy you describe, as a practical matter it doesn't matter. So let's say the stratgey does allow the client to file a suit in his home county and the Safari Company never shows up and the client gets a default judgment. The question remains how are you going to "force" the Safari Operator in Mozambique or wherever to pay you. Do you really think you get a Mozambique bank to freeze his assets and have a Mozambique court issue an order to the bank to send you the money? By the way you can accomplish the equivalent by putting a provision in the agreement that says "This Agreement will be governed by the laws of the state of XYZ and all suits and proceedings will be held in the county of ABC". Then it doesn't matter where you sign it. But again, good luck trying to enforce it. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?[/] [i] Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I tend to agree with most of what has been said regarding the practical utility of the very best of written contracts weighed against the challenges in enforcement abroad. Basically, it is nice to have all of the details in writing so that there is something to refer to if a question comes up pre, during, or post safari. If, however, it comes to the point that you want to seek enforcement or interpretation, the costs and challenges of that are daunting and impracticable. This, I concede. Now, back to the real issue. This post came about in response to the llamapacker and Nixon fiasco. Reading between the lines, I think (my opinion) llamapacker believes he was taken on an illegal hunt by Nixon. He will not seek to obtain his trophies, he has lodged a complaint, through his attorney (which is often an option utilized so as not to incriminate one's self) with USF&G regarding a potential CITES violation by SSG. This would also explain llama's reluctance to answer the very pointed questions about what animals he actually did shoot in Zim (again, my opinion). This backdrop sets the stage for my original question, "How can we better protect ourselves, if at all, from a the good ol' USA making a Lacey Act case against one of us if we've unknowingly violated some foreign law while hunting abroad?" My feeling is that it could not hurt us to have warranties from the operator that the hunt will be carried out in a legal manner, all laws adhered to, permits obtained, TFs paid on timely basis, hunting in legal area, quotas adhered to, etc. If I were ever so unfortunate to be on trial for a violation of the Act, I would like to be able to prove to the jury that I'd sought the promises of the outfitter that the hunt was 100% above board. It would be much better than the "aw shucks" defense. With that in mind, what else would need to be included in the "CYA" document? Will J. Parks, III | |||
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I generally include the following: The concession area being hunted is not owned or controlled by, and none of the monies paid under this contract will be paid to, any individual on the United States State Department list of persons that United States citizens are banned from dealing with under the Executive Order Blocking Property of Additional Persons Undermining Democratic Processes or Institutions in Zimbabwe. In the event of a breach of the preceding sentence, all monies paid under his contract shall be refunded. If United States citizens are not allowed to travel to Zimbabwe or it is unsafe for the client to travel to Zimbabwe, deposits will be transferred to the next year. I figure if there is ever any issue with the folks here, it would be useful to have such language to refer folks to as indicating that I was attempting to comply with the Executive Order. Mike | |||
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Am I the only one here who thinks that if Llamapacker shot a 50lb or better ele we wouldn't have heard of any "violations?" If Phifer really did hire a lawyer I would be shocked. He seems too "thrifty." | |||
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i think you have an outstanding idea here. the safari co.'s have contracts spelling out their side very well, why not the client. my only problem is that we create yet another layer of paperwork. and if a guy is going to be a liar and a cheat, paperwork isn't going to keep him honest | |||
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