I am not buying one but i am interested in these rifles. Are they used much for dangerous game and is there a top quality no frills double rifle? What i mean by no frills is one without cape buffalo heads or lions scrolled all over the gun just a top quality hunting rifle.Also when i hear the term double rifle i think of side by side rifles but i have been seeing some over and under doubles. , What are the pros and cons of the two different doubles?And can you get a double in .458Lott?

The basic original premise of a double rifle is to deliver a large caliber bullet at relatively low pressure in tropical heat. The double rifle action in inherently weak and is not designed for high pressure load.

If you are looking to hunt dangerous game I suggest you stick with a sideXside double. The action of the O/U has to open further to extract/eject the bottom round.

Double rifles for dangerous game should be chambered in a flanged cartridge. The name of that cartridge should end in these words. . .Nitro Express.

There are several makers, who today make good double rifles NIB.
Kreighoof, Merkel, Chapuis just to name a few. In my opine, Butch Searcy makes the best American made double rifle. You can order a 450/400 3 inch NE with 26 inch barrels.

If you go looking for an older English double, you need to find someone who knows what to look for, before you put money down on one. The road to purchasing a used double is a Dragon's Tooth Tank Trap and navigation along that road can be treacherous.

Double rifles are specific tools for a specific job. They are designed for close up work. You can expand those limits with practice.

The bottom line is that you can drive a bullet faster further and more accurately with a bolt rifle than you can a double rifle. Double rifles require attention and patience. They can be a pain.

However nothing carries, comes to your shoulder, or points better than a good double rifle! They are great fun! That's why I own one.

Damn Rusty, you don't leave much for the rest of us to add to...

In no way is this a critique on Doubles...
For me personally I have never understood the fascination with them. I would ask is it a nostalgia thing? Or a preferred functionality or perhaps a combination of both?
Just wondering.

To appreciate the advantages of double rifles, IMO, it helps if you are a shotgunner. Though much has been made in print of the "inherent reliability of two actions in case of failure" that is much less important that their handling. If you have ever owned a good double shotgun, SxS or O/U, that comes up automatically at the flush and shoots where you look without having to be aware of the barrels or the front bead then you will understand the craving for a good double rifle, especially when "1500 lbs. of angry potroast" has decided to put you out of his misery and is closing. Yeah, nostalgia is a wonderful thing, especially the advancing-in-age but the real reason that DG hunters love DB's is that they really, really work. I still want one, some day.

I know very little about Double Rifles... like Ray said.. I could add nothing to what Rusty outlined so very well.

What I can say is ..that up until about two months ago I was a confirmed Bolt Rifle guy and really had no interest in a Double Rifle...that was until I shot a Double 470 NE for the first time!!! Nothing like it...it was great fun!

After that I knew I had to have one...but felt given my lack of knowledge (not wanting to get burned by purchasing an older rifle)... I would focus on a new rifle. I purchased a Merkel 470 NE and very pleased with it...

Double Rifles are a true pleasure!! Now I just need to need back to Africa (and very soon..man the bug is getting me bad!!) to use it on one of those big and nasty critters...

www.searcyent.com

www.champlinarms.com

www.cabelas.com (look in the Gun Library)

www.westleyrichards.com

www.thadscott.com

www.doubleguns.com

www.gunsamerica.com

www.gunbroker.com

www.auctionarms.com

www.chadicks-ltd.com

www.hallowellco.com

www.african-hunter.com/links.htm

List of Double Rifle Retailers

List of double rifle gunmakers.

Also,

Graeme Wright, "Shooting the English Double Rifle"


Gun List newspaper


Shotgun News newspaper


DoubleGun Journal

quote:

Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:
In no way is this a critique on Doubles...
For me personally I have never understood the fascination with them. I would ask is it a nostalgia thing? Or a preferred functionality or perhaps a combination of both?
Just wondering.

The answer is found in Rusty's post, found 2 posts above yours in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldsarge:
To appreciate the advantages of double rifles, IMO, it helps if you are a shotgunner. Though much has been made in print of the "inherent reliability of two actions in case of failure" that is much less important that their handling. If you have ever owned a good double shotgun, SxS or O/U, that comes up automatically at the flush and shoots where you look without having to be aware of the barrels or the front bead then you will understand the craving for a good double rifle, especially when "1500 lbs. of angry potroast" has decided to put you out of his misery and is closing.

Same here. I began by shooting side by side shotguns and a good double rifle has the same characteristics. Point and shoot and sometimes you don't even notice the aiming part.

Because with one barrel, you only have half a rifle.

Good post by Rusty!

quote:

The basic original premise of a double rifle is to deliver a large caliber bullet at relatively low pressure in tropical heat.

Sorry, Rusty - but the basic original premise of a double rifle is to deliver two shots quickly with independent firing mechanisms.

The points you mention regarding pressures are bi-products of large/overbored cartridges or cartridges designed for BP that were converted to smokeless.

These cartridges display the same characteristics in single shot rifles as well - so they are not limited to doubles.

That's the whole idea behind the DR - if and when the sh*t hits the fan, you've got two guns in one.

Tanoose and carmelo

The only way to understand the desire for a double rifle is to handle many and also shoot them. I never shot SxS shotguns I own several over/unders and have shot competition with bolt action as well as hunted with them many years. Until I finally handled and shot a double rifle I didn't know what I was missing, they are in a completely different world. Like hunting Africa, until you go you don't understand, after you go you wish you had done that many years ago but I couldn't have afforded it then.
So to sum it up doubles are as addicting as Africa, once it is in your blood it's impossible to get out but it is a sweet disease.

CFA

CFA,

Your post makes sense. I will have to make a point of arranging a situation where I can really fire a few doubles and get the feel for them.

quote:

In no way is this a critique on Doubles...
For me personally I have never understood the fascination with them. I would ask is it a nostalgia thing? Or a preferred functionality or perhaps a combination of both?

carmelolisciotto - In fairness to your question... it’s one that comes up frequently and one that deserves an attempted explanation.

But the explanation is one really one of "appreciation." In other words if there really isn’t something you appreciate for it’s intrinsic value (over it’s functional value) then it’s a question that’s easy to ask, but much more difficult to understand. It’s probably best illustrated with comparisons.

Why does a Harley guy think an American-made “Hog†is better than a Kawasaki? A Japanese bike handles better and is considerably quicker. Why would he want a slow, loud, awkward motorcycle? It’s simple… He “appreciates†the fact that someone built it by hand. He “appreciates†the fact that it’s been customized to his specification. He “appreciates†the fact that the style of motorcycle he’s riding represents something more than advancements in modern technology.

Why does wine of certain age or vintage taste better to a coinsure than last year’s Kendall Jackson? Because he “appreciates†the criteria of that specific year that make it a special vintage… Because he “appreciates†the aging process of wine and it’s benefits. Because he “appreciates†the fact that oak barrels are more difficult to make than stainless steel ones.

Why do some prefer Ferraris to Mustangs? Because they “appreciate†the feel of the road when they're driving . Because they “appreciate†the fact that the car was designed from the ground up with speed, agility and handling in mind – above marketability.

Why do some like Cuban cigars?

Why are older violins better?

Why do some prefer hand-painted art to computer animation?

Why do some prefer Scotch?

Why do some prefer the smell of Mopane to Hickory?

Why is rust bluing better than cold bluing?

Why does English walnut look better than American black walnut?

The list goes on. The simple answer is appreciation.

The double rifle represents an era of design ingenuity and necessary craftsmanship that simply can’t be duplicated with modern machining. (there’s never been a computer program written that could regulate a set of barrels - for a rifle or shotun.)

This doesn't only apply to Double Rifles exclusively, but to fine guns in general.

These examples aren’t meant to put anyone in a comparative box, just to illustrate the point that everyone has unique interests and appreciations that others don’t understand.

And for those enthusiasts of their respective likes, the true aficionados, there simply is no substitute for the “real thing.â€

I hope that helps some.

I think the reason for a double rifle is much simpler and less subjective than some of the reasons given above.

1. Stand 15 feet away from a cape buffalo that is looking at you.

2. Ask yourself, "Could I get off 2 shots with a bolt gun before the buff gets to me?" (Hint: No.)

3. Now you know the reason for having a double rifle.

New_Guy,

Very well said sir.

Yes, Rusy you are correct in that Double Rifles drive large bullets at modest vel, reliable ejection, etc...

I think we're headed into a debate on semantics, and I know your intentions were good.

My point was that it isn't necessary to build a gun with two barrels just to get the low pressure and reliable extraction, etc... nor were they the logic behind originally attaching two barrels together, etc...

A double rifle was designed intentionally to be exactly that - two rifles.

Sorry off-topic but .....

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

Why does wine of certain age or vintage taste better to a coinsure than last year’s Kendall Jackson? Because he “appreciates†the criteria of that specific year that make it a special vintage… Because he “appreciates†the aging process of wine and it’s benefits. Because he “appreciates†the fact that oak barrels are more difficult to make than stainless steel ones.

You summed it up in the first sentence ie "taste better", better aromas, colour and longevity. The rest is just the process to get there and better grapes are capable of being made into a higher priced wine with better margins allowing more costly and effective making processes.

The appreciation is on the results ie the palate, nose and eye.

Or sometimes the marketing hype to convince the buyer of its relative worth.


***

Double rifles are the same. The most effective result for their true purpose ie hunting dangerous game with a big bore at close range, OR hunting running medium game in close cover (eg in a drive) where two quick shots from a double might be possible where a bolt would only get one.

Hunting with a double in other circumstances is where the connoisseur comes in.

New, Guy,
Yes two rounds to settle things no matter what!

Well said, NitroX

All good posts, and all are on target from different angles!

New Guy has down the Nostalgia, and others have the practicle reasons for a double. However, what I think Carmelo is asking is what most folks who do not understand double rifles, are wanting to know! The fact is even with the CNC machineing of today,to illiminate the HOG work, the double rifle still must be made by hand, and the skill required to do this is an "ART" not shared by many! The value of anything, is dirrectly connected to the skill, and sweat, required to complete it! There are thousands of smiths that can build a very well made bolt, or single shot rifle! Basicly all he needs to be is a good machinist, with a little understanding of rifles in general. Those same smiths, in absolutely most cases do not have the skill required to build a double rifle, that is worth owning!

The practicle fact is, the well made double rifle is two, complete, and indipendant rifles on the same stock. By it's break top design, it is able to take a large cartridge, with any length one desires to chamber it for. This allows the large bullets to be lounched with as little chamber pressure as is posible, with out makeing the rifle's OAL longer with the same length barrels. The rifle doesn't depend on FEEDING, or magazine springs, or the working of a bolt to get off the second shot in a tight sittuation. One fires the first shot, and without doing anything other than change triggers, fire the next shot! In a close encounter with a dangerous animal, tha is coming to talk it over with you, at a distance where the bolt rifle will only get one shot,of any kind the double will get two, both aimed!

A good man with a double shooting against an equally good man with a bolt rifle, the double will get of the second AIMED shot much faster than the Bolt man! Addtionally in the same sittuation, if a third shot is required, that third shot will be dead even with the man shooting a bolt rifle,because of his lagging behind on the second shot, and a fourth shot will be far ahead of the bolt. The Bolt rifle in most cases where they are chambered for DG cartridges, are dry after the third shot, and the bolt is far slower to reload, than a double! The double rifle is a rifle that is designed for instinctive shooting, and handles as well as any firearm ever made!

As someone above said when you get into a tight spot, a rifle with only one barrel is only HALF a rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:
In no way is this a critique on Doubles...
For me personally I have never understood the fascination with them. I would ask is it a nostalgia thing? Or a preferred functionality or perhaps a combination of both?
Just wondering.

I didn't get it either... until i got a chance to shoot 2 AIMED shots from a double timed against a bolt gun....

my friend could put 2 in the bull before i had my second shot fully chambered...


I, the first time, could get the second aimed shot before he could return to battery...


no question about it, if you are going to put yourself in harm's way, a double, for 20 yards an in)... 2 aimed shots... a bolt gun, it's take the shot at 50 and HOPE LIKE HELL you have trained a second shot...


oh, yeah.. btw.... if the SHIT has really hit the fan.... the gainormus lion/hippo/buff is REALLY about to nail you... and you have the nerves to aim... there are TWO triggers.......

jeffe

After buying and selling a number of doubles and having the chance to play with different makes and calibers I would make the comment that a double is not worth a damn if like any other rifle or shotgun...it does not fit you.
I have handled far more "ill fitting" bolt guns that would work and felt better than I have "ill fitting" doubles.
I think Rusty pretty much said it all and right too but...if the double does not fit you (and many will not) it is just a big ass 2" x 12" hunk of wood with two chunks of rail iron on top and I don't care who put their name on top or what caliber it is.
The other thing I always question about doubles is that they are mostly in large calibers and great for Africa or the really big bear in Alaska. Now, I have plenty of guns that I bought just because I could and because I wanted them...not because I needed them. Seems like a double in something elk caliber and down would be far more useful than elk and up unless you are a PH or spending a hell of a lot of time hunting the nasty stuff.
I have pals with 30/30 doubles that have much more fun using them ( and they do often) than I have pals with 470 NE's.
If and when I get a double it will be something I can use at the ranch often and if the truth be known...I lust after one made by Tony Galazan in 22 long rifle looking akin to the old A.H. Fox or the one he does after the Mod. 21 Win. Put one of those in your hands and you will understand the real difinition of "Pure Sex".
No rabbit, fox, coon, skunk, squirrel, possum, turkey or tin can would ever be able to feel safe and secure again. Only one small problem...it is the first $25,000 Tony wants. Oh well...win the lottery!

Harry, and the rest of AR posters.
The 9,3x74R is pure heaven in a double rifle.
It is not too powerful for deer/pigs, I have even killed several coyotes, a bobcat, turkey, black bear and other small game with it.
They are usually much less expensive than doubles of 375 and up. If you do not plan on hunting a lot of buff and elephant, or already have a 40+ double take a hard look at a 9,3x74R. Scope it and go on some hunts.

450's right, the most fun you'll ever have with a double is with the ones you'll shoot the most! Harry took delivery of a little 9.3X74 R double for me, three yrs ago, and it is the only double rifle I shoot anymore! Perfect double for North America!

I used to have a little double I built chambered for 30-30, and that was one sweet little package! Sure wish I still had it! The big boys are fun as well, but so expencive to shoot regularly, that they collect a lot of dust in the rack. I too would like to have a slim little double chambered for 22 Hornet, on a 410 ga action!

quote:

The 9,3x74R is pure heaven in a double rifle.
It is not too powerful for deer/pigs, I have even killed several coyotes, a bobcat, turkey, black bear and other small game with it.
They are usually much less expensive than doubles of 375 and up. If you do not plan on hunting a lot of buff and elephant, or already have a 40+ double take a hard look at a 9,3x74R. Scope it and go on some hunts.

Amen brother

I may give this double rifle a try. You know i bought my first shotgun when i was fifteen it was an Ithaca m37 pump 12 guage and because i liked the pump so much it later lead to me buying a remington pump 30/06 for deer hunting.I still have the Ithaca ,but it sports a 2x scope for deer hunting in shotgun only counties hear in NY. The reason i retired it for small game was about two years ago a neighbors father had died and she gave me his shotgun , it was on old 12 guage double barrel sxs made in Belgium , it came to my shoulder so quickly as if it were a part of me so i think i may get the same feeling from the double rifle. I guess i will have alot of fun doing research on the doubles , thanks alot everyone Tanoose

How does the 9.3x74R preform on the larger Game here and in Africa?

875x
I have taken pigs up to 325lbs, black bear up to 383lbs, both weighed, waterbuck and kudu.
I would not hesitate to use the 9,3x74R on any North American game. I planned on using the 9,3 on lepoard and lion over bait.
It is a bit on the light side for buff, hippo, elephant etc, IMHO.

My favorite bullets are the Hawk 285 grain with the .035jkit for deer sized game with the 286 Woodleigh soft or the 286 Nosler Partition for the bigger stuff.

quote:

I would not hesitate to use the 9,3x74R on any North American game. I planned on using the 9,3 on lepoard and lion over bait.
It is a bit on the light side for buff, hippo, elephant etc, IMHO.

I heartily agree but we must both admit that such game has been taken with it. Perhaps a nice .450 something-or-other to back up the occasional slip would be in order? Certainly it would make a most classy safari with a pair of double rifles in 9.3x74 and .450 NE. Hmmmm . . . sounds like a pair of Pedersoli, doesn't it?

Rusty when you say flanged cartridge for dangerous game in double rifle is this because the rim leads to positive extraction and ejection if a reload is needed? I read on another post about someones single shot rifle never having any problems when they used there 30/30 and 45/70 but they did have problems with ejecting shells with there 223 and there 30/06

Oldsarge,
That is exactly the 2 rifles I used in Zimbabwe last June. My 450 No2 for elephant and buff, with my 9,3x74R for everything else.
I will take that same combo back to Zim in March 2006.

Tanoose,
The old saw. . . "An ounce of prevention. . ."
The rimmed case does provide positive extraction/ejection.

Remember, you are hunting dangerous game, with emphasis on the "How can I stomp, hook, and trample the little white guy who just pissed me off?"

According to Murphy's Law, "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong!" At the worst possible time. If an extractor can slip past a belted case it will just when you can least afford the time to stop and try to get the case unstuck. At this point, you are just holding several thousand dollars worth of a metal and wood. The pieces of which can be used later to mark your grave or at least to make a splint for your leg!

Seriously, it is just feature that has stood the test of time. Just my opine!