Did anybody watch TAO this morning?

The PH was on a follow up for a wounded leopard with a pump shotgun. He fired the shotgun in some real thick brush I believe to make the leopard move. He pumped the shotgun, pulled the trigger and nothing happened. He tried again with the same result. He grabbed a rifle from a tracker and seemed to load it before going back to work on the leopard.

It all turned out OK but that episode could easily have been a tragedy. If I remember correctly (I may be wrong) it was the same PH I saw on a video discussing being hit by a cape buffalo.

I have seen the video you speak of. Ian is a very experienced PH but it did not appear to me that he had a lot of experience with a pump gun. There was clearly a malfunction, either from the gun or the operator or both.

My experience with some pump shotguns available in Africa has not been good. Many Chinese type knock-offs that are unreliable. I used to always take my own 12 ga. with both a short and long barrel for cat follow-ups and some bird shooting for the pot. These were the days when a three gun battery was not prohibitive.

Hi guys
The hunt under discussion was with Ian Gibson, an very experienced PH working for Chifuti safaris. Ian was using his pump shotgun, his favored choice for wounded leopard and one he has used with great results for years. The first shot went fine, but the second shot failed to strike the primer with enough force to fire the load - a problem he had never encountered with the gun. Thankfully the cat was not in the mood to charge home, and was feeling the effects of the clients shot which got one lung and shoulder. As you see, Ian ran to get his .458 from his tracker Robert and finished the cat off. It could have got ugly. Ian stripped and fixed the shotgun that night. No problems since.
Thanks for watching guys.

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Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Hi guys
The hunt under discussion was with Ian Gibson, an very experienced PH working for Chifuti safaris. Ian was using his pump shotgun, his favored choice for wounded leopard and one he has used with great results for years. The first shot went fine, but the second shot failed to strike the primer with enough force to fire the load - a problem he had never encountered with the gun. Thankfully the cat was not in the mood to charge home, and was feeling the effects of the clients shot which got one lung and shoulder. As you see, Ian ran to get his .458 from his tracker Robert and finished the cat off. It could have got ugly. Ian stripped and fixed the shotgun that night. No problems since.
Thanks for watching guys.

Is Ian actually using the gun again?

It only takes one time we know that and that gun had its one time the PH got lucky. Would you really trust a gun out in the bush again afer the gun miss fired one time before?

I wouldn't

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Ian was using his pump shotgun, his favored choice for wounded leopard and one he has used with great results for years.

I have had a number of PH's (the likes of Nigel Theisen, Pete Barnard, John Rosenfels, and Wayne Grant) say shotguns for cat follow-up seems like a good idea but it is not as buck-shot has a real problem penetrating cat skulls.

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his favored choice for wounded leopard and one he has used with great results for years.

Do legends have to be true? Or have any truth attached to them?

He tried the shotgun stunt one time on a wounded lion, which had zero effect. Andy Hunter had to shoot the lion.

But keep up dem shotgun legends, cause the boys, and apparently some PH's, believe dem.

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by ledvm
I have had a number of PH's (the likes of Nigel Theisen, Pete Barnard, John Rosenfels, and Wayne Grant) say shotguns for cat follow-up seems like a good idea but it is not as buck-shot has a real problem penetrating cat skulls.

J. Lane Easter, DVM

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Originally posted by Will:

quote:

his favored choice for wounded leopard and one he has used with great results for years.

Do legends have to be true? Or have any truth attached to them?

He tried the shotgun stunt one time on a wounded lion, which had zero effect. Andy Hunter had to shoot the lion.

But keep up dem shotgun legends, cause the boys, and apparently some PH's, believe dem.

Since I have not shot a leopard with a shotgun,nor would I shoot a leopard with a shotgun useing buckshot, this only my opinion, but one based on a lot of use of a shotgun with buck shot. Most police departments have stopped useing shotguns with buck shot because they have found the they often do not stop a perp, getting officers wounded or killed after the perp taking a load of buck shot. Many places have had buck shot outlawed for whitetail deer hunting, because the departments have found them to wound deer letting the deer get away to die later to the wounds.

That along with the list offered by Mr. Lester DVM, I think if a shotgun were to be used a good slug would make far more sense, but my choice would be a good double rifle, with soft points. I saw it in print but I can't find it now that a large percentage of the people mauled by leopard in a follow-up where useing a shotgun for it. That coupled with the testimony of the PHs in the list above are enough for me, but even without all those very experienced men's words, my own experience with buckshot, leads me to shy away for the use of a shotgun. Others may do as it suits.

..................

Would you really trust a gun out in the bush again afer the gun miss fired one time before?

I wouldn't

Fair enough, but it's not like he can just run down to Wally World a get a new one this afternoon.

Dean

But he had in camp for years a malfunctioning Mod. 70 in .375 H&H, for client use!!

Pleazzzzzzz ..............

The debate of rifle vs shotgun for wounded leopard is one of personal experience. I will say that Ian is one of, if not the most experienced cat men practicing as a full time pro in the Lower Zambezi and he is a shotgun man. Having a unexpected gun problem is like having a flat on your truck "it is working great until you hear a pop !" It can and does happen, and the Wall-Mart thing was spot-on.
Speaking of Andy Hunter, the year before, a Zambezi leopard was thoughtfully chewing on Andy's arm when Gibbo solved the problem by blowing the top of the things head off with the shotgun in question. Ian is a good bush gunsmith and said he fixed the gun problem. I know him very well, and I am quite sure he is aware of the possible complications in case he is incorrect. My bet is that he is not.

Bet the Triball (3 x 0.600") loads from Dixie Slugs would change some thinking on using "buckshot"!


www.dixieslugs.com

The most shocking thing in that episode was the poor shot on the leopard. As soon as the shot rang out, I said, "That's trouble!"

I believe most failures on medium sized game with buck shot may be range related. Inside 20-25 ft in a charge, I would hate to be on the receiving end of that pattern. Inside 10-15 ft I suspect it would take a leopards head off, much less penetrating the skull.
So much for the trophy value???

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
The debate of "rifle vs shotgun for wounded leopard is one of personal experience. I will say that Ian is one of, if not the most experienced cat men practicing as a full time pro in the Lower Zambezi and he is a shotgun man.

That is true Dave, but I think there are far more who do not use shotguns for that purpose then of those who do! Like the double Vs bolt, and PF vs CRF, the disagreements will never stop. All of us are on one side or the other on most of those subjects.

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Having a unexpected gun problem is like having a flat on your truck "it is working great until you hear a pop !" It can and does happen, and the Wall-Mart thing was spot-on.

The above is true! ANYTHING made by man can fail, and will most often do it at the most inopertune time. That is why my light rifle is always legal to take the place of my big rifle just in case.

All one can do is make what ever they use with as few features that can fail as is possible. You know the KISS factor!

In Ian's case the shotgun's shot didn't fail to stop the leopard, it failed to fire again, a problem that could happen to any kind of firarm! In most of the camps I've been in the shotguns there are a little ragged out, and the rifles aren't much better. Some don't look to have been fired or cleaned for years from the gunk you can see in the actions. Shotguns are more prone to that than other types because they are hard to completely clean in the field. That may be one reason so many people have had bad experience with them.
IMO, the real draw-back to a shotgun is the shells not the gun.In many cases buckshot fails to penetrate well! Ian has not had that problem it seems, or maybe he doesn't use buckshot.

In any event folks ought to use what ever they want as long as they are the only one to pay the price of that decision, and let others do the same.
................... ..........

I have not seen this particular episode of Tracks Across Africa, but I have hunted in Zimbabwe for Leopard with Ian as a PH. I have never had a better PH than Ian. He has had many years hunting cats in the valley. With quite a bit of success I might add. He is responsible for not only himself but the client and the trackers. Who are any of us say what a PH should carry for a back up. They are the ones who have the experience and knowledge. I put my life in Ian's hands once in Zimbabwe and hope to do so again!

I agree with eezridr 100%, would hate to be on the recieving end of a load of 000. Out to 15 yards, pretty sure no leopard would be able to stand a full load of buckshot. Don't know about you guys, but I'm damn sure I would have a better chance of hitting Mr. Spots in a charge with my shot gun than with my rifle. Much better chance the more I think about it.

I had the unfortunate experince as a young man to witness a hunting accident while Pheasant hunting in S. Dakota.
We were hunting behind some shorthairs and one of the hunters had never been hunting but a few times in his life and never behind dogs and he did not listen very well. Well of of the dogs got a load of #6's at about 15 yards in the head at a flush. There was no head!
Those were field loads or express 6's, not buck shot.
It was very ugly and made a real impact on me at a young age about gun safety.

this leopard caught a load of SSG in the neck at less than 10 yards from Ruger O/U on a full charge. i am used to bird shooting with the gun and just threw it up and shot like it was covey of quail. if i had been using a rifle, i would have been screwed. inside 10 yards, i want a shotgun with buckshot, at least on something like a leopard.

A shotgun would not be my choice, however, the selection is personal. Once the shotgun failed, it got very interesting.

What bothered me, and cause me to never hire this fellow, was the tracker handing him an empty rifle. The leopard is in the deep cover and he is fumbling with his rifle whilst loading it!!! All the while taking quick glances at the leopard's position in the cover.

This hunt could have ended very badly had the leopard come out of the cover toward the hunting party.

I'll take a dozen shot guns please....

Shotgun or Rifle? Another "no correct" answer issue.

To each his own, but I have extensive experience with riot and trench guns in both sport hunting, combat and law enforcement since the mid 1960's. I have trained extensively with these pump guns, practicing combat shooting, reloading and immediate action drills. I have no problem carrying a shotgun after a wounded Leopard and have done more than once. I have also stopped a full charge from a really pissed and wounded bushpig at about 3-5 feet using one round of #6 birdshot to the brain. That's a long story for another time.

To me, the biggest problem is that most folks simply do not understand the correct employment of a short barreled shotgun; they are not duck guns nor are they rifles. Second problem is selection of appropriate ammunition. Lead 00/000 pellets are SOFT and tend to flatten upon impact to a lesser or larger degree depending on many factors. They will, however, make a large hole when used at close range on any person or soft skinned animal. A much better choice is a pellet that is hardened or coated in some fashion to reduce or eliminate the deformation of the pellets. There are plenty out there and selecting a 3" or 3.5" shell makes much more sense than using a 2.75" shell. 00 buckshot sends nine (9) .32 pellets down range and that's a lot of firepower.

One should be able to fire and work the action without removing the gun from the shoulder nor lifting the cheek weld from the stock. Likewise one should be able to accurately fire the gun from the hip when/if necessary. Someone trained in these skills can get off accurate multiple rounds as fast or faster than a DR shooter. Also, there are still used quality shotguns on the market that are slam-fire capable and if you know how to use them they cannot be beat for speed and accuracy.

Bottom line on using a shotgun on safari? Take your own that you have practiced and trained with and select the appropriate ammunition for it and you shouldn't have a problem. Hope this info helps some out there.

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Speaking of Andy Hunter, the year before, a Zambezi leopard was thoughtfully chewing on Andy's arm when Gibbo solved the problem by blowing the top of the things head off with the shotgun in question.

A shotgun in the ear of a leopard works. Huh.

Just a note that Ian's Leopard follow up shot gun is the heavy 10ga which has served him well till now.
And my vote for Leopard follow up goes to a double 10ga Shotgun.

LionHunter I agree with taking your own, but some countries won't let hunters bring "pumps" only citizens can own. I wanted to take my Mossberg 835 to RSA for Suni (not needing the power) because I use it a lot and liked the familarity of the weapon, but the laws says no.

a nice 1928 thompson with a drum magazine would solve all arguments

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Originally posted by butchloc:
a nice 1928 thompson with a drum magazine would solve all arguments

Well said butchloc. My own opinion is that a semi-auto FN is best for wounded leopards, followed by shotgun (two pipe), followed by double and then bolt action rifle.... Most of my PH friends agree with the FN and few of them agree with the shotgun. I just may have a chance of hitting with the shotgun, that's why I rank it highly! I approve fully of PH's following wounded cats with the rifle they carry all the time and are most familiar with. But what do I know - I'd rather not follow wounded cats at all! My good friend PH Thierry Labat and Roger Whittall had a frighteningly close call with a big, wounded tom in thick bush a couple years back. Both of them were carrying rifles and both of them swear that someone would have been mauled had they been packing shotguns....

Just my two cents, bearing in mind that my two cents is worth more now than it was last year when we were still using zim currency.

Cheers, David

if you have ever seen what 00 does to a human body at close range you would have NO doubt about it's stopping ability on thin skinned animals. Try this fun experiement hunt white tail with it see how fast they hit the ground when you dump a load on them.

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if you have ever seen what 00 does to a human body at close range you would have NO doubt about it's stopping ability on thin skinned animals.

That is just the point. A charging leopard is not a human. Buckshot pellets strike a human fairly flatly. A charging leopard is like shoting an on-coming arrow...in other words they are stream-line and the pellets strike at acute angles. The deformity is also a problem. Deformity + acute angle = no penetration. Harder pellets would probably be better.

Another point to this reply is that those individuals "have seen" what buckshot does to a charging leopard at 15 yards and they were "unimpressed" with its ability to kill and stop.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

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Speaking of Andy Hunter, the year before, a Zambezi leopard was thoughtfully chewing on Andy's arm when Gibbo solved the problem by blowing the top of the things head off with the shotgun in question.

A shotgun in the ear of a leopard works. Huh.

Hell a .22 lr in the ear works!

ledvm has this exactly right with respect to OO on humans. I have seen 3 men shot with OO, several more immediately after they had been shot with OO, and I have attended the autopises of several more who had been shot with OO. Generally the wounds were sustained from fairly close range and at relatively flat angles. The results were, indeed, devastating. But I have also seen the results of humans struck with OO from greater distances and at acute angels that were neither devastating nor fatal. Some cases included OO pellet strikes to the head that did not penetrate. Based on this experience I would agree with ledvm that the use of OO on a charging leopard is less likely to be as effective when compared to a large caliber single projectile. But, I am not a PH with leopard experience. I'll leave this decision to the experienced professionals.

When I posted this I did not think about the shotgun vs rifle for leopard debate.

It was a scary moment for Ian, as that click had to be the loudest sound in the Zambezi valley.

One comment on rifle vs shotgun. At close range (10 yards or less) how big is the pattern on buckshot? (I know it depends on choke) But the point is it will be a small pattern, so if you miss with a rifle at close range would you not more than likely miss with a shotgun?

While the pattern from a shotgun is still (relatively) small at 10 yards, depending on choke, it is still in the 6-12" range. Even the largest bore rifle still has a "pattern" of 1/2" or less. That extra 6-12 inches can make a big difference.
I'm not a hige fan of shotguns in general, and while shotguns aren't magic, laser guided weapons, there is a considerable amount of extra "coverage" with a shotgun than with a rifle. If I had to hit a fast moving leopard at 10 yards or less, I would be very happy to be using a 12 gauge shotgun with 3" premiuum loads.
Bill

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I'll leave this decision to the experienced professionals.

I sure as hell wouldn't.

OK guys; Sounds like more time for experimentation.
Due to the lack of leopards in Texas. We are going to employ some alternatives. I am going to go do some hog culling at my farm in the next few weeks.
I will set these pig carcasses facing me at different angles (skull). They have a long tapered snout so it should simulate a glancing target.
We will check the effects of buckshot at close range. Anyone care to offer some woolite to get the blood splatter out of my clothes?
I will try and post some pics of the results before and after results. We will try and get 150-200 lb pigs.

EZ

I remember a debate about this in another thread. I was fortunate enough to have dinner with four PHs in Zimbabwe one night. This topic was discussed and the consensus finally was an over and under or side by side shotgun with slugs might be just the ticket. One of the hunters used a shotgun for lion backup till he actually had to use it. He emptied the gun and the lion was not impressed till the client got in a lucky shot. They all felt the buckshot normally available in Zim was lousy. They mentioned that I believe it was Geoff Broom was using a 10 gauge at that time.

Maybe Ernest's drilling in the other post would be a good option. One good rifle shot if missed...2 12 gauges for desperation. I think I would rather have some Hevi-Shot T's though than buck-shot. eezridr...try some of those on your hogs.

Hevi-Shot won't deform and patterns well.

EZ:
Great idea. We'll be interested in seeing the results. !!!

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Just a note that Ian's Leopard follow up shot gun is the heavy 10ga which has served him well till now.
And my vote for Leopard follow up goes to a double 10ga Shotgun.

The 3 1/2 10 guage shoots 18 OO buck pellets, that is double the 12 guage payload. Slugs are 785 grains. I've a double bbl sawed off at 20 inches and it is the first choice for anything I want to kill stone dead.

Clive Eaton does quite a few tracking leopard hunts with the Bushmen in Botswana every year. Garry kelly buys several of these hunts. They both think the Benelli shotgun with 3.5"Mag buckshot is the trick. They do have the expereince because you most likely will get a charge on these hunts so they have stopped many.

Mark

Long as we are going to bring that up, running a leopard into total exhaustion and then shooting it at point blank range after it charges from a hopeless situation is just not my idea of fair chase.

A shotgun at 5 feet? Yeah it works.