good morning all - HAPPY THANKSGIVING -

I have just posted the below piece that I wrote on social media in the hopes of generating some calm sensible discussion - I kNow with some people that is a futile effort but we at least have to try !

please feel free to share it off my Facebook page www.facebook.com/ivancartersafrica , or join that discussion and comment on there , or cut and paste it from here to your own pages, or email me on ivan@ivancarter.com and I can send it to you on a word doc - either way , I am hoping it will get out there and make a bit of a difference -

Thoughts On The Administration’s Looming Lifting of the Ban on Elephant Trophy Imports and its reversal

There is a substantial amount of rhetoric surrounding the current U.S. administration’s looming decision on the import ban applying to elephant and lion trophies. As a result, I am taking this opportunity to bring reason-based clarity to the discussions by summarizing the guiding principles influencing sustainable and ethical hunters. This writing seeks to engage thoughtful conversation amongst the stakeholders; to this end I respectfully request readers keep an open mind and approach this writing in a calm and pragmatic manner.
First and foremost, I support and advocate for the sustainable and ethical use of wildlife – utilizing wildlife’s inherent value in the most pragmatic manner to promote wildlife conservation. I am qualified to speak on this issue because I have spent my entire lifetime steeped in every aspect impacting wildlife around the world.
I have participated in myriad and countless conservation efforts ranging from wildlife relocation to anti-poaching efforts – on many occasions, risking my life to implement these conservations efforts – facing death or serious and massive bodily injury from both beast and poachers. I am willing to face these dangers because I love the wildlife and I want to see animals thrive – I am convinced by my life’s experience that the only way to achieve this conservation goal is by maximizing the wildlife’s inherent value.
More specifically relevant to this discussion, I have spent, cumulatively, years of my life amongst elephants. I love elephants and it is my belief that any time spent amongst elephants is a rare and invaluable experience that stays within each of us – within our souls – for the remainder of our respective lives. It is my opinion that when approaching elephant conservation from a global perspective, or at least a pan-African perspective, we are correct to be concerned for their future.
It is critically important (and reasonable) to understand that there is a vast difference between poaching and legal hunting performed in a sustainable and ethical manner. Like all conservationists, I abhor poaching and poachers and everything they represent. I likewise abhor non-sustainable and unethical hunting. I only support sustainable and ethical hunting and I sincerely believe that hunting that follows sustainable and ethical principles can be an incredible conservation tool. I know this because I have guided many people on elephant hunts and have thus seen first-hand the effect that sustainable and ethical hunting can have on local communities which deal with the wildlife on a daily basis.
It has been estimated that trophy hunting areas extend over 1.4 million square kms in Africa; that is approximately 22% more land than is covered by national parks in Africa. Much of the trophy hunting areas rely on trophy hunting as their sole “land use.” It is unclear how much of that land could be viable converted to solely photographic or non-consumptive tourism. However, if we arguably give up hunting in those areas, some other economic activity must replace the hunting activities in order to sustain the local countries and communities. It would indeed be ironic to lose 1.4 million acres of wildlife land and eliminate wildlife to make room for crops and domestic livestock – cattle being the most common large animal on the planet by far. They roam in their millions across landscapes that were once wild and teeming with wild game. Why not instead support sustainable and ethical hunting that in turn promotes animal conservation in areas where wildlife is abundant (and in some cases overpopulated – such as is the case with elephants in Botswana). Additionally, hunting activities can and do feed people in local communities. Therefore hunting activities provide for both feeding local populations and supporting and promoting the inherent value of wildlife populations.
I therefore ask that each of you consider the following premises:
1. The Inherent Value in Wildlife Is a Conservation Tool –
Where geographic sub-regional wildlife populations exist in healthy and sustainable numbers, sustainable and ethical hunting practices support and promote the inherent value that exists in wildlife. This result is due to the economic influx generated by the financial outlays expended by hunters that have a direct, significant and immediate impact on the local countries and communities in which wildlife exists. This inherent wildlife value promotes continued conservation initiatives and efforts at the grassroots, local governmental and international NGO levels. It is critical, however, that the hunting activities are supported by scientifically researched and competently-executed conservation practices that focus primarily on wildlife population health and sustainability.

Where hunting activities exists under substandard conservation efforts or conditions and as a result are poorly managed or unsustainable, the impact can be disastrous; these results are exampled by the current crisis that plagues the rhino populations. As I previously mentioned, I have spent most of my adult life engaged in conservation initiatives all over Africa. I have therefore been witness sadly, to the impact that poorly managed or unsustainable hunting practices have on ecosystems. Too often, I now visit ecosystems that are mere shadows of their former selves. My first-hand experience provides a nearly unique opportunity to compare thriving ecosystems and failed ecosystems where hunting activities exist. It is clearly apparent to me that the common thread existing amongst thriving ecosystems is that any wildlife-oriented activities – whether non-consumptive photographic or hunting – provide benefits to the local communities; this element raises the awareness and value in the ecosystems wildlife. Consequently, any reasonable person must at least consider that, provided the activity is carried out sustainably, ethically and for the benefit of the species, value maximization practices such as sustainable and ethical hunting of a wild population of any animal can be a beneficial practice to the species in question.

2. Elephant Populations Are Not Equally Distributed – The African continent (Africa) is composed of 54 different countries and many diverse habitats and ecosystems. There are, in fact, geographic areas in Africa whose elephant populations have been poached to the brink of local extinction (also known as extirpation). Comparatively, many other geographic sub-regions in Africa (especially in many southern African countries) contain successful and thriving elephant populations – in fact, in certain regions these Elephant populations are overpopulated/overcrowded to the point where the local ecosystem cannot adequately support the elephant populations. Consequently, any reasonable person must at least consider maximizing the conservation value of such populations by benefiting the communities and countries which they inhabit. By providing value to the local countries and communities in which elephant populations thrive, elephant populations become inherently valuable assets to those countries and communities and therefore encourage conservation efforts for the benefit of those elephant populations – this model is equally applicable to all wildlife populations.

3. No Meaningful Reduction in Legal Hunting Practices – The ban on elephant imports into the United States does not meaningfully change how many elephants are hunted in legal hunts. It does however, reduce the revenue generated to the local countries and communities in which the elephant populations live, thereby reducing the population’s inherent value to those local countries and communities and thusly negatively impacting conservation efforts that support those elephant populations. Consequently, any reasonable person must at least consider maximizing the inherent value of elephant populations by supporting legal, sustainable, and ethical hunting as a viable conservation alternative that has yielded successful results in Europe, the United States, and many other regions in the globe.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Ivan M Carter

Very well written and thought out from a man with a lot of experience on the ground.

The antics don't care, they just want hunting stopped.

.

As I said on Instagram: TED Talk...

What irks the anti-hunting fanatics to the point at which all civility and reasoning dissipates are the words "sport" and "trophy".

They have also failed in distinguishing the difference between legal as practiced by conventional hunters and illegal as are those acts carried out by poachers and unethical hunters.

They have not understood that conventional hunters are in actual fact culling the excessive numbers and paying (handsomely) for a service otherwise performed by government authorities for nothing in return and at a cost to its already half-empty coffers.

Their hate has been further exacerbated by those ridiculous clips floating around the internet of back-slapping, high-fiving, grinning hunters. Gone are the days of the simple "thank you" and handshake from the guide to the hunter or vice-versa and the solemnity that accompanied the accomplished taking of a life.

In recent times hunting has become an activity (for the majority) of self-aggrandizement, the hunter being more interested that his kill is "trophy" class so that he/she can earn their gold medal or whatever and more back-slapping, with the achievement recorded on film for the world to see, mostly by those with negative eyes and views.

This malpractice has toned down but the untold damage has been done.

So yes, I daresay we have sought, created and brought a large group of negative people together who have very adequately armed themselves with ammunition which we ourselves have provided.

What was once considered a right has now made us pariahs for exercising that same right.

No, I am not an anti-hunter, just one speaking his mind and the truth.

Twitter replies should not determine elephant game management policies. Science and informed opinions like Ivan Carter’s should. It’s time to energize the NRA and funds are needed:

https://www.nrahunting.com

I DONATED...WILL YOU?

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
What irks the anti-hunting fanatics to the point at which all civility and reasoning dissipates are the words "sport" and "trophy".

They have also failed in distinguishing the difference between legal as practiced by conventional hunters and illegal as are those acts carried out by poachers and unethical hunters.

They have not understood that conventional hunters are in actual fact culling the excessive numbers and paying (handsomely) for a service otherwise performed by government authorities for nothing in return and at a cost to its already half-empty coffers.

Their hate has been further exacerbated by those ridiculous clips floating around the internet of back-slapping, high-fiving, grinning hunters. Gone are the days of the simple "thank you" and handshake from the guide to the hunter or vice-versa and the solemnity that accompanied the accomplished taking of a life.

In recent times hunting has become an activity (for the majority) of self-aggrandizement, the hunter being more interested that his kill is "trophy" class so that he/she can earn their gold medal or whatever and more back-slapping, with the achievement recorded on film for the world to see, mostly by those with negative eyes and views.

This malpractice has toned down but the untold damage has been done.

So yes, I daresay we have sought, created and brought a large group of negative people together who have very adequately armed themselves with ammunition which we ourselves have provided.

What was once considered a right has now made us pariahs for exercising that same right.

No, I am not an anti-hunter, just one speaking his mind and the truth.

Awesome Fulvio.

I have LONG said the same, we have handed a well organized and well funded opposition the very ammunition they need to destroy our sport in the publics eye...emotion. The emotion of barbary. We are viewed as uncivil barbarians whom stand hand in hand in the glee of a slaughtered beast.

The horse has left the barn, we are finished.

Not a defeatist attitude, just what an intelligent person following along, looking at the facts on the ground and the motive of that same well funded opposition.

Is anyone under the presumption that once the Elephants and Lion importation is settled the they will stop their crusade? Cuz I'm not.

Leopards, Hippo's anything that can be humanized in the least little bit. Americans are gullible and are highly susceptible to emotionalizing of our worlds great beasts.

I'm fortunate, I've harvested Africa's bounty, met and hunted with many great and hard men.

I will continue to go, right up until the bitter end. I hope that end isn't for some time, but I fear the bitter end is within reach for our opposition. "The Enemy is at the gate"

Public opinion. . .

I agree gents we are our own worst enemy - in 2014 when the ban was imposed that should have been fair warning to start NOW with recording researching and creating papers and documenting what we do to be able to come back to the table with some scientific facts - sadly the industry in africa has remained asleep and now when this comes back with a real chance of being reversed we do not have the volume of data we truly need for the fight - anecdotal information does not stand up to scientic scrutiny.

we ourselves say that the decisions must be made from a scientific perspective yet we are slow to facilitate or generate the necessary data for that to happen - VERY frustrating -

That's hilarious

Scientific studies and facts verses emotions. Add politics and we face an uphill battle.

Dave

. . . perhaps if we spent about half as much time working constructively to ensure the future of hunting as we do lamenting the past and declaring defeat we might actually accomplish something.

Thanks for the post Ivan and the effort to educate and inform. Well done.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . perhaps if we spent about half as much time working constructively to ensure the future of hunting as we do lamenting the past and declaring defeat we might actually accomplish something.

Thanks for the post Ivan and the effort to educate and inform. Well done.

Could not have said it better.

I do not understand those who say just give up, do not try, we have done lost. I remember the seen in Gods and Genetals, Private fleeing the Frist battle of Bull Run, "Sir, the day is lost!"

General Jackson in reply, "If you feel that way you best not say so!"

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . perhaps if we spent about half as much time working constructively to ensure the future of hunting as we do lamenting the past and declaring defeat we might actually accomplish something.

Thanks for the post Ivan and the effort to educate and inform. Well done.

"Declaring Defeat" can you please point me to the last or even ONE piece of positive news regarding International Hunting?

The election of President Trump was out best, last hope. Even he has proven he is susceptible to the pressure of public opinion on this. Ryan Zinke isn't the President.

SO lets say we get another "Conservative Republican" after Trump. I wonder if his (or her) sons hunted Lions or Elephants?

Lamenting defeat is one thing but not being able to look at the facts on the ground is akin to Obama saying we have won the war on terror.

I am open and honest enough to see the writing on the wall. You seem to think that me being honest, on an internet forum is admitting defeat. There is a difference between claiming victory and being a "Baghdad Bob."

Can you, being intellectually honest say things are going well?

Can you honestly see a way to change public opinion? on the hunting of Elephants and Lions.

If you were to go and look at the rank and file opinion on a MOTORSPORTS forum, you might see it as I do. Even American deer/elk hunters side with stopping the practice. I already provided a link last week, but here it is again.

http://www.riverdavesplace.com...ort-of-ivory.176677/

Read it, then tell me I have given up. You can figure out who I am. I'm a moderator on this site. I entered the debate at post #120.

Mike, In all honesty, I would love for you to sign up on this site. I could use some intelligent and knowledgeable help on this site.

The posting velocity on this site is unbelievable. The front page will turn every couple hours.

Steve

Steve, you are right about public opinion
We get bombarded with National Geographic shows about Africa damn near daily
I have also heard many hunters condemning Elephant , lion, leopard hunting here and in Montana
No matter what I say, they give me blank look and “ but “ argument
It’s very similar to gun owners condemning NRA and when I ask how could they, they go into a tirades
Well, sums it up for me - “ just because some people own gun and hunt, don’t mean they understand the big picture “
Trump sure lost marble for that one
Well, maybe some were right about what he could become...
Power sure corrupts, that’s for sure
Time will tell

I will give you some good news regarding hunting and it is trophy hunting. The WWF sanctioned Markor hunting in Pakistan as a viable conservation tool.

Zambia has allowed lion hunting. And just two weeks ago someone posted a thread about the five year rule for lions in Zimbabwe working.

There is a lot of good news if you want to hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I will give you some good news regarding hunting and it is trophy hunting. The WWF sanctioned Markor hunting in Pakistan as a viable conservation tool.

Zambia has allowed lion hunting. And just two weeks ago someone posted a thread about the five year rule for lions in Zimbabwe working.

There is a lot of good news if you want to hear it.

Again, have you taken the time to follow my link? I am in the midst of a VERY robust debate as to the viability of Elephant AND Lion hunting used as a conservation tool.

You and Mike both make remarks as to me "giving up" or not looking for good news. Are either one of you going outside our own domain and speaking to the people whom make a difference?

Why not follow my link, sign up on the site and make me not look like the only "Barbarian" whom hunts these beasts.

On AR, we are simply preaching to the choir. Our words to each other mean exactly ZERO. Go make a difference rather than agreeing or disagreeing with your brethren here.

People whom don't know the difference refer to guys like me as "Wealthy American Aristocrats"

You asked for good news and I shared so,me high profile good news I knew about.

I will sign up right now on your link and make my plea.

Habe you invited any on the other forum to come here for more information?

Nope, for the most part, they don't get trophy hunting. Even the guys that hunt will admit..."I just don't understand why you want to kill an Elephant" or "You want to save something, just so you can kill it?"

I could use you, I already asked Mike Jines.

These are rank and file Americans, these are the people whom need to be reached. They fish, they boat, they are all into motorsports of some kind.

This thread is in the Political Forum. I have started another one in the Hunting and Fishing forum. Not much posting there. If we can develop some posting velocity, we can get peoples attention.

Besides, its a fun group, lots of laughs, can get rough but you can handle yourself pretty good. The "Fun" general discussion forum is called "The Lounge" pretty much anything goes.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
You asked for good news and I shared so,me high profile good news I knew about.

I will sign up right now on your link and make my plea.

Habe you invited any on the other forum to come here for more information?

Thank you!

SA: I have registered on your other forum. I will post my plea tomorrow when my registration is confirmed.

It will not be the best argument, but you ask for help, so I will do my best.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
SA: I have registered on your other forum. I will post my plea tomorrow when my registration is confirmed.

It will not be the best argument, but you ask for help, so I will do my best.

There are two guys whom will attack, both are hunters.

Stainless, he's a lost soul looking for approval

530RL, I don't know what he is. He claims to be a Conservative but his views are skewed. He is called "pretzel" for his many twists.

I am Nganga, my old name here. Tell me your screen name and we might be able to build some velocity. There are many that are willing to listen. But when it is only one....?

I have made my argument. Not the best, but the best I could make tonight.

Let them attack. I know a lot of folks who call themselves hunters who should not be in our fraternity. Most are on tv.

Maybe they do kill a deer or two, but I bet their real objection is envy.

Well done Ivan. Am sending to a few key players.

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:

You have no idea how close to the truth you are!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:

You have no idea how close to the truth you are!

You might actually get better results from this bunch than you would from USF&W

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:

You have no idea how close to the truth you are!

You might actually get better results from this bunch than you would from USF&W

In have written to both Zinke and the other gentleman whose name escapes me at the moment. The absurdity of the matter pointed out above is one of the first things I discussed.

Now they are taking shots at Zinke.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gro...nting-152859169.html

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . perhaps if we spent about half as much time working constructively to ensure the future of hunting as we do lamenting the past and declaring defeat we might actually accomplish something.

Thanks for the post Ivan and the effort to educate and inform. Well done.

"Declaring Defeat" can you please point me to the last or even ONE piece of positive news regarding International Hunting?

The election of President Trump was out best, last hope. Even he has proven he is susceptible to the pressure of public opinion on this. Ryan Zinke isn't the President.

SO lets say we get another "Conservative Republican" after Trump. I wonder if his (or her) sons hunted Lions or Elephants?

Lamenting defeat is one thing but not being able to look at the facts on the ground is akin to Obama saying we have won the war on terror.

I am open and honest enough to see the writing on the wall. You seem to think that me being honest, on an internet forum is admitting defeat. There is a difference between claiming victory and being a "Baghdad Bob."

Can you, being intellectually honest say things are going well?

Can you honestly see a way to change public opinion? on the hunting of Elephants and Lions.

If you were to go and look at the rank and file opinion on a MOTORSPORTS forum, you might see it as I do. Even American deer/elk hunters side with stopping the practice. I already provided a link last week, but here it is again.

http://www.riverdavesplace.com...ort-of-ivory.176677/

Read it, then tell me I have given up. You can figure out who I am. I'm a moderator on this site. I entered the debate at post #120.

Steve,

I am sure it won't make much of a difference, but I tried to add to your thoughts on the above forum.

Hopefully an extra fact or two may sway another individual.

All the best.

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . perhaps if we spent about half as much time working constructively to ensure the future of hunting as we do lamenting the past and declaring defeat we might actually accomplish something.

Thanks for the post Ivan and the effort to educate and inform. Well done.

"Declaring Defeat" can you please point me to the last or even ONE piece of positive news regarding International Hunting?

The election of President Trump was out best, last hope. Even he has proven he is susceptible to the pressure of public opinion on this. Ryan Zinke isn't the President.

SO lets say we get another "Conservative Republican" after Trump. I wonder if his (or her) sons hunted Lions or Elephants?

Lamenting defeat is one thing but not being able to look at the facts on the ground is akin to Obama saying we have won the war on terror.

I am open and honest enough to see the writing on the wall. You seem to think that me being honest, on an internet forum is admitting defeat. There is a difference between claiming victory and being a "Baghdad Bob."

Can you, being intellectually honest say things are going well?

Can you honestly see a way to change public opinion? on the hunting of Elephants and Lions.

If you were to go and look at the rank and file opinion on a MOTORSPORTS forum, you might see it as I do. Even American deer/elk hunters side with stopping the practice. I already provided a link last week, but here it is again.

http://www.riverdavesplace.com...ort-of-ivory.176677/

Read it, then tell me I have given up. You can figure out who I am. I'm a moderator on this site. I entered the debate at post #120.

Steve,

I am sure it won't make much of a difference, but I tried to add to your thoughts on the above forum.

Hopefully an extra fact or two may sway another individual.

All the best.

Thanks very much, your post was exactly the help I am looking for over there.

We on AR may have small degrees' of disagreement. However we all have the same end goal. We might have differing views on how to achieve them.

On forums like River Daves, THAT is the demographic we need to reach out to. I plea for as many of you as we can to populate forums like River Dave's and all others. We need to reach the rank and file American who is served up large doses of mis-information.

LHeym500 posted earlier as well.

Besides, Its a fun forum full of good natured people.

Regards,

Steve

Folks thank you for making better rebuttals than I in Steve's other forum. I appreciate your willingness to engage a larger audience.

Besides, we need better than I to do so.

That image is so good it deserves a little cropping and re-sizing:




Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
...

From CNN:

Other than the caveat st the beginning and a few missed opportunities, not bad. This is where someone like Ivan could provide an excellent balance.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/24/...n-dickman/index.html

There is an editorial in our local paper today in support of the action Trump took. Of course, I had to respond.

My response is as follows:

Ignorance is bliss as the says goes. This editorial proves this once again to true. Did you know there are 83,000 elephants in Zimbabwe while the MAXIMUM carrying capacity established by wildlife professionals is 40,000? Did you know that is 1900, it is estimated that there were 4,000 elephants in Zimbabwe? This is a 21 fold increase in 117 years! Did you know because of this over population of elephants that certain ecosystems are being destroyed along with the wildlife that inhabits them? Did you know that the safari companies are the ONLY entities providing protection to the wildlife in Zimbabwe through extensive anti-poaching activities? As soon as the hunters leave , organized gangs of poachers will arrive. Did you know that the safari companies provide meat to the local rural Africans (often their only source of protein) thus reducing the desire to poach? Did you know that the money from the safaris is used for may things including clinics, schools, roads and others things that they would not get if it were not for the hunters dollars? Did you know that because of tourist hunters money certain communities known as CAMPFIRE areas dedicate land and habitat for wildlife? This land would otherwise be used for cattle or crops making it unsuitable for wildlife. Did you know that elephant hunting makes up 70% of the CAMPFIRE areas income?

As I said, ignorance is bliss. If the emotional, ignorant keep it up,all African wildlife will be gone.

Thank you.

I was limited to 250 words.

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
I agree gents we are our own worst enemy - in 2014 when the ban was imposed that should have been fair warning to start NOW with recording researching and creating papers and documenting what we do to be able to come back to the table with some scientific facts - sadly the industry in africa has remained asleep and now when this comes back with a real chance of being reversed we do not have the volume of data we truly need for the fight - anecdotal information does not stand up to scientic scrutiny.

we ourselves say that the decisions must be made from a scientific perspective yet we are slow to facilitate or generate the necessary data for that to happen - VERY frustrating -

yet Ivan, when you had the chance to educate a large audience about the value of sustainable use hunting on your Carter’s WAR program there was barely any mention. Why?

I was wondering about that as well Drongo

Gotta hope Eric and Don Jr. talk some sense into the old man.

Not a good sign.

I don’t like people who blow with the wind and won’t stand their ground.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Gotta hope Eric and Don Jr. talk some sense into the old man.

Not a good sign.

I don’t like people who blow with the wind and won’t stand their ground.

+1

https://twitter.com/jledvm/status/934812572141879301

My local newspaper asked my thoughts on the lifting of the ban. They posted the story on their Facebook page and I am getting hammered. A few want me dead and many have called some very colorful names. Below if the link if any of you are inclined to join in the fray.

https://www.facebook.com/bango...ts/10154958203925796