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Damon to the effect "I know nothing of rugby"

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Originally posted by ledvm:
I have not seen it yet but will. My RSA white friends tell me Mandela was nothing but a terrorist no different from those that downed the World Trade Center in NYC. They say he should have been hung and at any other time would have been.

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I'd say your friends are very wrong indeed. If it hadn't been for Mandela, things would have been considerably worse when the time of change arrived as sooner or later, it had to.

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I have not seen it yet but will. My RSA white friends tell me Mandela was nothing but a terrorist no different from those that downed the World Trade Center in NYC. They say he should have been hung and at any other time would have been.

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I have not seen it yet but will. My RSA white friends tell me Mandela was nothing but a terrorist no different from those that downed the World Trade Center in NYC. They say he should have been hung and at any other time would have been.

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Originally posted by ALF:
Karoo:

Could you please enlighten us to why Mr Mandela was jailed for 27 years. What were the charges and what was he and the others who stood trial in the Rivonia case charged with and what they were acquited on? What was his position at the time?

I wonder what would the same charge in the USA bring a perpetrator, life or the chair?

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Originally posted by ledvm:

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I'd say your friends are very wrong indeed. If it hadn't been for Mandela, things would have been considerably worse when the time of change arrived as sooner or later, it had to.

Y'all will just have to disagree on that one. They are multi-generation RSA families and they feel the oposite from you! In fact talked to one today and he still feels Mandela should have been hanged and was a common terrorist.

He set of bombs and killed folks didn't he?

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Anti-apartheid activities

In 1961, Mandela became leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated Spear of the Nation, and also abbreviated MK), which he co-founded.[31] He coordinated sabotage campaigns against military and government targets, making plans for a possible guerrilla war if the sabotage failed to end apartheid.[32] Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad and arranged for paramilitary training of the group.[32]

Fellow ANC member Wolfie Kadesh explains the bombing campaign led by Mandela: "When we knew that we [sic] going to start on 16 December 1961, to blast the symbolic places of apartheid, like pass offices, native magistrates courts, and things like that ... post offices and ... the government offices. But we were to do it in such a way that nobody would be hurt, nobody would get killed."[33] Mandela said of Wolfie: "His knowledge of warfare and his first hand battle experience were extremely helpful to me."[10]

Mandela described the move to armed struggle as a last resort; years of increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had not and could not achieve any progress.[10][34]

Later, mostly in the 1980s, MK waged a guerrilla war against the apartheid regime in which many civilians became casualties.[32] Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, sharply criticising those in his own party who attempted to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.[35]

Up until July 2008, Mandela and ANC party members were barred from entering the United States — except the United Nations headquarters in Manhattan — without a special waiver from the US Secretary of State, because of their South African apartheid regime era designation as terrorists.[36][37]

Arrest and Rivonia trial
On 5 August 1962 Mandela was arrested after living on the run for seventeen months, and was imprisoned in the Johannesburg Fort.[38] The arrest was made possible because the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) tipped off the security police as to Mandela's whereabouts and disguise.[39][40][41] Three days later, the charges of leading workers to strike in 1961 and leaving the country illegally were read to him during a court appearance. On 25 October 1962, Mandela was sentenced to five years in prison. Two years later on 11 June 1964, a verdict had been reached concerning his previous engagement in the African National Congress (ANC).[42]

While Mandela was imprisoned, police arrested prominent ANC leaders on 11 July 1963, at Liliesleaf Farm, Rivonia, north of Johannesburg. Mandela was brought in, and at the Rivonia Trial they were charged by the chief prosecutor Dr. Percy Yutar with the capital crimes of sabotage (which Mandela admitted) and crimes which were equivalent to treason, but easier for the government to prove.[43] The second charge accused the defendants of plotting a foreign invasion of South Africa, which Mandela denied.[43]

In his statement from the dock at the opening of the defence case in the trial on 20 April 1964 at Pretoria Supreme Court, Mandela laid out the reasoning in the ANC's choice to use violence as a tactic.[44] His statement described how the ANC had used peaceful means to resist apartheid for years until the Sharpeville Massacre.[45] That event coupled with the referendum establishing the Republic of South Africa and the declaration of a state of emergency along with the banning of the ANC made it clear to Mandela and his compatriots that their only choice was to resist through acts of sabotage and that doing otherwise would have been tantamount to unconditional surrender.[45] Mandela went on to explain how they developed the Manifesto of Umkhonto we Sizwe on 16 December 1961 intent on exposing the failure of the National Party's policies after the economy would be threatened by foreigners' unwillingness to risk investing in the country.[46] He closed his statement with these words:
“ During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to the struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.[34] ”

Bram Fischer, Vernon Berrange, Harry Schwarz, Joel Joffe, Arthur Chaskalson and George Bizos were part of the defence team that represented the accused.[47] Harold Hanson was brought in at the end of the case to plead mitigation.[48] All except Rusty Bernstein were found guilty, but they escaped the gallows and were sentenced to life imprisonment on 12 June 1964.[48] Charges included involvement in planning armed action, in particular four charges of sabotage, which Mandela admitted to, and a conspiracy to help other countries invade South Africa, which Mandela denied.

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Your friends are obviously racist scum or have had their land taken away from them!!!

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Originally posted by ledvm:
My RSA white friends tell me Mandela was nothing but a terrorist no different from those that downed the World Trade Center in NYC. They say he should have been hung and at any other time would have been.

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Originally posted by jetdrvr:

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Your friends are obviously racist scum or have had their land taken away from them!!!

Is that anything like the black racist scum in Zimbabwe who have murdered whites and driven them off their land? That would piss me off.

It all depends on just whose ox is getting gored. Before you start screaming about racists, I would look north and east at Mad Bob's paradise in the sun.

The jury's still out on South Africa. I wish everyone luck. It's going to take a lot of it.

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or have had their land taken away from them!!!

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he changed the history of South Africa for the better.

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Originally posted by ledvm:
He changed the history all right...just as Mugabe has changed the history of Zim.

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and God knows I wish we had had someone of his calibre to take over in our country.

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Perhaps you could tell us why you are of that opinion and what you base it on?

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Originally posted by ledvm:
Anytime that a person's property is taken from them in the name of giving it back to it rightful owner or when one own's a business and he is forced to take on a 51% partner just because...that ain't right.

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Originally posted by ledvm
Ian Smith and his parliment probably had it the most correct but they were never given the chance to play it out. Mostly due to our president Jimmie Carter and South Africa's post-apatheid government.

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However, you appear to think that Mandela has pursued the same policies which isn't the case at all.

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Rhodesia became Zimbabwe and Ian Smith retired some considerable years before SA had a post apartheid Government, not after and therefore SAs post apartheid Govt couldn't have had any bearing on Ian Smith and his parliament because it didn't exist at that time.

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Originally posted by ledvm:
So in 1980 RSA had a pro apartheid government?

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Originally posted by ledvm:

I know people in RSA in which had a black partner imposed into their businesses as a 51% partner.

You tell me???