I read this post on another forum about Premium vs Standard bullets, and it got me thinking. If I was going to Africa I'd only use a premium bullet so no questions about that. My question is, how many of you guys who have been to Africa rolled your own hand loads? I've never been to Africa but was wondering how trure this post was. I find great satisfaction in building the most accurate load I can and then taking game with it. It has been at least 10 years since I purchased factory ammunition to hunt with.

quote:

First, I am not a handloader as I never saw the need to be one. I understand the hobby for what it is. Hunting, however, does not require sub-minute of angle hits. The heart/lung shot on most game is what is desired, so if you can place all your hits within a 3-5" circle at 100 yards, you will make one shot kills while hunting big game. My factory Browning A-Bolt .300wm shoots 1.5" at 100 yards with factory ammunition. An Elephants brain is about the size of a loaf of bread and they are shot at less than 20 yards. A Crocodile "brain" is the size of a tennis ball and they are shot at less than 50 yards.

Most African PHs will discourage you from bringing handloads on safari. They have seen too many problems. They all encourage the use of premium bonded bullets. With the use of modern proprietary powder - unavailable to the handloader - and premium bonded bullets, commercial premium ammunition provides the degree of accuracy required for hunting. Larry Barnett of Superior Ammunition loads for most of the gun writers and for many African PHs. You can send him your rifle and he will design a specific load to meet your needs, should you feel that is necessary. He will also provide sample packs of 4 different loads for you to try, to determine which shoots best for you in your rifle.

I have seen commercial ammunition failures - a .375H&H Federal premium solid that failed to penetrate the skull of a Hippo and lodged just under the skin in 1999, creating a mess that needed sorting out. I have also seen failures with handloaded ammunition result in catastrophic failure and injury.

I've been to Africa twice and never fired factory ammo in a centerfire while there. I did shoot some small game with a .22 and some birds with factory shotgun ammo purchased there.

Just take your handloads and be happy. Technicallly, you're supposed to have "factory" type ammo boxes, but a search here will reveal many ways to do that with handloads. After all, you are your own factory.

Modern factory ammunition is good, but I can still make better ammunition myself. I have been handloading for 36 years and my only failure in the past 30 yrs. was from a defective primer. I trust my meticulously handcrafted ammunition over mass produced ammo made by competent but bored factory workers.

I think you will find the majority of posters here with African or any other kind of hunting for that matter are handloaders. jorge

I don't know who the original author was, but his comment 'Most African PHs will discourage you from bringing handloads on safari.' is absolute rubbish........ I've been in the industry for close to 30 years one way or another and I don't think I've ever heard of a PH decry handloads............ In fact, most PHs even handload their own ammo. - Hell, I haven't bought factory ammo for donkey's years.

[QUOTE]Most African PHs will discourage you from bringing handloads on safari. They have seen too many problems. [QUOTE]

I handload for all of my centerfire rifles. It's not just about accuracy, though that helps. Sometimes pinpoint accuracy is needed in Africa. Crocodile is an example, and small cats, etc. Also, specialized bullets can be helpful, such as more frangible bullets for leopard when using a large bore rifle. Also, some rifles just don't shoot factory ammo well. This is sometimes due to the overall lenth of the ammo related to the lenth of the chamber (to the leade).

I've never had a PH even comment, except to discuss ballistics annd bullet performance. Some are very knowlegeable, some have no clue. I hunted with a well known PH who had at least five different 458 loads in his belt, and couldn't shoot any of them well.

I used handloads on all four safaris, with no problems, even in 100+ degree F. temperatures.

George

The author of that piece is partly correct about one thing and that is you don't normally need sub-MOA accuracy for hunting most of your big game. However, he then goes onto include comment about the size of a crocodile's brain and the distances at which they are shot. However, crocodile brains are smaller than the tennis ball he quotes, closer to a golf ball in size, and crocs are not an easy target nor stupid or gullible. I would suggest that most crocodiles are shot at much greater ranges than the 50 yards he mentions and, indeed, hunting crocodiles is one hunting scenario where a very accurate rifle is essential. I have not hunted crocs myself but I have been involved in crocodile hunts for other hunters and have actively participated in looking for croc sign, determining their movements, setting up baits and blinds and waiting the buggers out and a big croc is not easy as they have lived long enough to know many of our tricks. I wonder how many crocodiles the author of that piece has hunted, or elephants for that matter?

As for his comments about handloads - like most of this forum's members, I have only ever hunted Africa with handloads and I have never heard of a PH speaking against handloads. Indeed, there are many calibres being used in the African bush for which reloading is the only real option.

When I think back over the years I cannot recall ever using anything for hunting (and not just in Africa) other than handloads and I have never had an ammunition problem in the field. I have had some problems on the range, while preparing for the hunt, but that is the purpose of the range time - to sort out those bugs and problems so that they do not occur in the field.

I, myself, enjoy a total experience when planning my trips to Africa (or anywhere for that matter) and that experience starts with chosing the rifle/rifles and equipment that I will need and then getting my chosen rifle to shoot to an acceptable accuracy (and I aim for at around 1.5MOA with my scoped rifles) with handloads using premium bullets (Woodleighs are my preference). And then starting a practice regime so that my shooting is at my best when I hit the hunting grounds and before I fire any shots "in anger". This means that my hunting trip starts months, even years, before I arrive at the hunting area and this, to me, adds to the total immersion and pleasure of the hunt. To me, there is something very, very satisfying about undertaking a hunt with equipment prepared and fine-tuned by myself and that includes the ammunition.

The barrels of my rifles have never been polluted with a commercial ammo round.

Karamojo bell, who made the same remark regarding soft nose bullets)

never had a failure in the field yet. more than i can say for one of my PH's, who used commercial ammo given him by clients, until he had a misfire...
if the ammo is carefully made by an expert reloader, I would venture to say its reliability would be no less than the s.... produced by automated machines in the factories.

All of my loads are hand loaded. Period. The only thing inspectors did was count the number of shells

Despite the feeling that I'm "piling on" here, I feel compelled to add my voice. I've hunted in three African countries over a span of several years and have ONLY used my own handloads.
Cheers,
Don

I asked a similar question here almost a year ago. The reults of my survey follow.


Posted 12 April 2007 11:41
As a result of the recent .458 Win Mag discussion, and other discussions around the cracker barrel in the local gun shop, I'm wondering if I'm way off track spending all this time and money developing custom loads for my .375 H&H and .458 Win Mag.
These are intended for a hunt for Cape Buffalo and Hippo in Zimbabwe but I feel the question still applies on plains game hunts, and any other big game hunts.

Thanks for your participation!

Les

Results (226 votes counted so far):

What type ammo do you use when hunting big [not Dangerous] game?
37 (16%) Factory ammo from a major manufacturers.
189 (84%) Handloaded Ammo [your own or a custom loaders]

What ammo do you use when hunting Dangerous Game?
34 (15%) Factory Ammo
192 (85%) Handloaded Ammo

Are you a handloader / reloader?
200 (88%) Yes
26 (12%) No

Three safaris, no factory loads. I do go through the standard practice of using new or more likely once fired brass, and feeding every last cartridge through the magazine and chamber to test for function.

I used handloads for my 35 Whelen in Namibia in 2006 with no issues, and I am headed to Zimbabwe in September of this year where I will be using 375 H&H handloads for Buff.

On my past two African trips, I've used factory loads, with the exception of some tungsten grand slam solids loaded by Larry at Superior. In '09, I'll be hunting handloads. I have been loading pistol calibers for twenty five years, but I had not loaded for rifles prior to my '06 hunt. I loaded almost 1000 rounds of practice ammo for my .375 and now my A Frame loads shoot as well as Remington's, which shoot damned well in my rifle. I'll be taking the leftover grand slams as well.

In 2005 someone asked a similar question, and got a similar answer. I posted the following regarding the technique which is really important when you have your life on the line:

Use once fired cases, fully resized and trimmed.

Prime each case and inspect.

Charge each case and inspect. (Not an extreme loading.)

Seat the bullet and inspect.

Crimp each bullet and inspect.

Run each round through the rifle it will be used in, checking both seating in the magazine and chambering.

Weigh each round to make sure that it is charged, and box.

Load 5-10 extra rounds, and select at random that many for chronograph and accuracy testing. If they are consistent with your previous data adjusted for temperature variations, you are good to go. Kudude

I hunted with factory ammo the first time I went to Africa. That was in 1982.

I also had two factory rifles I bought second hand.

Ever since then, I built my own rifles, and loaded my own ammo.

His comment about hunting ammo not required to be very accurate is true to a certain extent, but will limit yout shots.

My own 375/404 rifles, both of them, with handloads, will consistently put ALL shots inside an inch. Most of teh time their shots are touching.

This is, of course, not required for the majority of shots at game animals in the open.

But, it sure gives one, and his PH, lots of confidence if taking shots that otherwise would have to be passed up.

This can happen in thick bush, and all one can see is a little gap to put his bullet through. Or if one only has an option of taking a head shot at something like a croc.

Extreme accuracy in hunting is not a requirement, but it sure makes life that much easier.

I remember when I first started hunting in Africa. My PH would say "wait for him to get clear" or "wait for him to give you a good angle for your shot"

One time we followed a buffalo bull for quite a while, then saw him looking back at us from about 100 yards. He was at an angle, and a big tree was precisely where one would want to shoot. His rear end is clear, and part of his nect and head were clear. His left horn hat to be avoided if one wanted to get into the chest cavity by hitting him in the neck.

My PH was shouting "SHOOT HIM! SHOOT HIM ANYWHERE!"

Without an accurate rifle and ammo, I would have passed on that shot. But, as I knew that if I did my part, that bull is dead.

A couple of seconds later he wasw.

I do a lot of shooting here in our indoor shooting range, and sometimes no matter what one does, we cannot get a particular rifle to shoot consistently, regardless of what we do.

If that rifle is mine, we work on it, by working on the action, changing the barrel, bedding it etc.

So far, I have not had one that we were not able to make into a very accurate rifle.

Actually, when it comes to accurate shooting under hunting conditions. The hunter is the weakest link. Many people are great at shooting off the bench. Once they are in the bush, and having been running after an animal for a while, with their hearts beating, many people find it hard to place their shots accurately, regardless of what sort fo rest they might have.

For those who might be interested, we are testing over 50 types of 22 rim fire ammo in different rifles, at both 50 and 100 yards.

Rim Fire Forum - Please check threads started by Saeed

Was it Whelen who said "only accurate rifles are interesting?"

He was dead right.

More so for hunting.

Working up my handloads for my 375 and 458 Lott to take to Zim last June was beneficial in several ways. For one it's just plain fun. Secondly I was able to work out the most accurate, best bullet performance combo for each rifle. Thirdly you end up getting alot of shooting time in. And fourth it saves you a bunch of money which can be applied to other aspects of the safari. Works for me.

3 trips to Africa, all handloads. (Including my first trip, which required a borrowed rifle - 911 issues - and borrowed handloads!)

My last trip, Tanzania in 2006, I took two wildcats. A 470 Mbogo, with a 416 Taylor as backup.

Cheers,
Canuck

I spent more than a year handloading for my trip to Zimbabwe this last year. Due to the good advise I was given on AR I found some very good loads for my .375 H&H using R-15 and Barnes bullets.

When I got to Harare my checked bag didn't make the flight so I ended up using somebody else's handloads that they had left in camp to take a buffalo, impala, zebra, eland and waterbuck.
My bag made it to camp after the buffalo was taken and I switched over to my handloads for the rest of the trip. When I left camp I gave my handloads to the PH so he could give them to the next guy that found themselves in my situation.

If I learned anything from that experience it was the value of taking a rifle on safari that ammunition can be scrounged for. I recently put a deposit down on a .375 Ruger, and am wondering if I want to risk showing up in Harare with a rifle I am fairly certain I can't bum ammo for.

I look at it another way... We all like to go out to a restaurant, but nothing beats home cookin...

Mike

I shot my first 3 Deer and my first Elk with factory ammo when I was in college.

In 1967 I put together my first centerfire rifle, a .30-06 barreled action and a semi finished stock from Herters. That was also when I started reloading.

The succeeding 40 years have yielded almost 200 big game animals including hunts to Alaska, Canada, and over 30 African animals in 3 trips, all of which were taken with my handloads. In fact 4 of my hunting rifles have never fired a factory round.

And I have never had a hunting guide or PH question or discourage my use of handloads. In fact I think that many guides and PH's feel that if their hunter is a handloader, that hunter is probably more familiar with his rifle and a better shot than hunters that do not handload.

Just wondering, who actually said something so assinine and in print for the whole world to see?

Well the website is not accuratefactoryloads.com so you may have biased the sample right there... but:

In 3 safaris I've used only reloads, no problems. The only ammo problem I've seen on safari was a factory load from a MAJOR custom loader that got stuck in my friend's .416 Rigby. The bolt wouldn't close and the (CRF) extractor wouldn't pull it out. The PH ended up DRIVING it out with a metal cleaning rod from the muzzle... couldn't have done the crown any good but at least he had a servicable rifle again.

With my clients in the States I've seen some terrible messes with reloads (too long for the magazine, too long for the chamber, too hot, too light, etc., etc.) from people not knowing what they're doing but if you pay attention you can load some terrific quality ammo.

In fact I've probably shot around 99% reloads since I was 13 years old. The only way I'll shoot factory centerfire rifle and pistol shells is if they're FREE (shotgun shells are a different story because factory is required in competiton).

Kyler

Hello all

Firstly, I would step into someones toes, yes there are some of my colleagues thta has excellent knowledge of ballistica and reloading, and then there are the majority who are completely ignoramusses concerning reloading and calibres, they think a 303 and 375 is all you need with locally made ammo in South Africa

The ones that know more, know a lot, I have been working in a VLT Arms in Pretoria since I was 12 years old and started reloading at 13, that is some time ago, currently I am reloading for 19 calibres,

I have seen handloaded ammo that was too hot for the Zambezi valley, and I have also had a client that thought he would need to download his 416 Rigby for his Valley hunt, the dam things would not penetrate on a buffalo and it was a mess.

Crocodile with us in Moz takes a bit longer shot, but then our crocs are a bit bigger than the ones I saw in most of the pictures at SCI
so I would agree with a tennisball at 100 yards would be a good test for your rifle for croc.

The advice of testing each bullet in the chamber can not be overstressed, neither the chrono of all rounds,

Viva reloading, otherwise we could not shoot those big guns out here

The majority of South African PH's I know and play with (around a 150 of about a 1000 on regular basis) prefer their clients to use sensible, high quality reloads. They reload themselves almost to exclusion for both practice and hunting. I have not come across many PH's against reloads - unless the reloader tried to load hot for Africa. I am not at all sure that the majority of all PH's in SA are opposed to sensible reloads. I cannot speak for other territories, but I have not come across any PH in Botswana, Mozambique, Namibia, Zimbabwe or Zambia opposed to reloads.

Hello

Eerstens Hello Pierre, hoe gaan dit, ek sit in Vegas , gaan die SHOT show doen die naweek,

Yes Pierre is absolutely correct, but he has an added advantage, all the PH'S belonging too Big Bore Association in South Africa reloads for sure,

Pierre I was thinking more of the red socks/Bangles/mags brigade

Walter - Geniet dit jou bliksem.
Enjoy the show. I am envious of you. I sit here between black-outs and bees trying to get things done for Aim via a telephone line of which cables are being stolen on a weekly basis. Darkest Africa has never been SO DAMN DARK!

Pierre,

I will try and get a couple of pictures and write a article for BASA

Ruger and Hornady are talking about a 416Ruger for next year

Reloads = double the practise for the same price for me its even more.

in 2006 we took 3 buff the one was shot with 416 rigby frontal chest shot with factory ammo it only penetrated about 4" my butcher pulled it out with his finger perfect mushroom but no penetration so they also make mistakes.

with my reloads it gives me more confidance in my gun and i never use rounds loaded by a different person i do it myself because i trust myself

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The hunter is the weakest link. Many people are great at shooting off the bench. Once they are in the bush, and having been running after an animal for a while, with their hearts beating, many people find it hard to place their shots accurately, regardless of what sort fo rest they might have.

I have to agree with Saeed on this. If I spent as much time getting in shape as I do fiddling around on the reloading bench, I would be a better shot under field conditions. And factory ammo with Swift A-Frames or Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSX bullets, if they shoot even two minute of angle will be sufficient for my needs.

quote:

Use once fired cases, fully resized and trimmed.

I think this is really good advice....

As I once had a batch of 458 Lott brass with undersized belts...

All appeared fine untill I pulled the trigger....click....

By handloading and using once fired brass you could certainly avoid this in the field...

If one was using factory loads or new brass you may not figure it out intill it's too late...

quote:

Hunting, however, does not require sub-minute of angle hits. The heart/lung shot on most game is what is desired, so if you can place all your hits within a 3-5" circle at 100 yards, you will make one shot kills while hunting big game.

Particularly on small plains game targets.

An African do-all rifle has to be able to AT LEAST meet antelope rifle accuracy standards, as 300-yard shots on Springbok and such are not unusual.

My black Springie was across a canyon, yardage unknown, but I held a foot high and a foot into the wind and nailed it with a .300 Wby that was sighted in at 200 yards.

If you're likely to take klippies or duiker with a .375 on a one-gun trip it better be able to group WAY better than 3-5". Personally, mine will take the heads off Francolin at 40 yards, which I consider a necessity

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
I read this post on another forum about Premium vs Standard bullets, and it got me thinking. If I was going to Africa I'd only use a premium bullet so no questions about that. My question is, how many of you guys who have been to Africa rolled your own hand loads? I've never been to Africa but was wondering how trure this post was. I find great satisfaction in building the most accurate load I can and then taking game with it. It has been at least 10 years since I purchased factory ammunition to hunt with.

quote:

Most African PHs will discourage you from bringing handloads on safari. They have seen too many problems. They all encourage the use of premium bonded bullets.

I have seen commercial ammunition failures - a .375H&H Federal premium solid that failed to penetrate the skull of a Hippo and lodged just under the skin in 1999, creating a mess that needed sorting out. I have also seen failures with handloaded ammunition result in catastrophic failure and injury.

taylorcel, one of the points of confusion is the word "BULLETS"! Many mean cartridges when they say "BULLETS". This leads to all sorts of misunderstandings, not only among posters, PH's suggestions, but in interpreting the rules. When the PH says, "Use premium bullets!" he means the bullets used in your cartridges, which usually means in your handloads! Some take his statement to mean premium factory ammo, and that is not the case in my experience. If one is to use factory ammo, then premium is the only way to go, however.

There is nothing generally wrong with premium factory ammo, it will mostly do as your quoted poster says, put every shot in a 5 inch group at 100 yds, now that's some good ammo! It is still inferior to most handloads, at least, handloads put together by someone who knows what he's doing!

Factory ammo, even the premium stuff, is done on gang presses, with powder charges dumped into the cases by powder measures. The dies are set on all the presses, but there is no way they can be all exactly the same. The powder charges are not exactly the same, and the brass is not matched for weight. IOW, they are thrown together.

The well-practiced handloader, will first hand weigh every charge on a very accurate powder scale, and match all his brass, for weight. "What in hell does the weight of the brass have to do with how the ammo shoots, you ask?" Well since the outside dimensions are the same, if the brass is heavier, the powder capacity has to be smaller, if it weighs less, then the powder capacity is greater. This means the heavy brass cartridge will create more chamber pressure, than the light brass cartridge. The two will not shoot the same. Add to this the fact, the powder charges being slightly different, and you really get into some spread in pressure, and velocity. These rounds are dumped on a conveyer belt, for all those presses, and go into a hopper, where a machine boxes them in twenty round boxes, and conceivably every round in that box, may have come from a different press!

There are other places where the ammo absolutely must be perfect, and that is ammo used in a double rifle! Factory will usually not regulate well in every double rifle so chambered. Even double of the same make, regulated with the same factory ammo, can be made to regulate better with very carefully handloaded ammo for a particular double rifle. This is very important, not at long range in this case, but that every round fits the rifle, and chambers easily, and ejects the same way, and regulates perfectly. The factory ammo is the reason most folks think a double rifle is only a short-range rifle, which it certainly is not! With proper ammo for the individual double rifle, it will shoot as well as any iron sighted at any range!

The rule about boxes for ammo, is not a rule in Africa, but an airline rule, and doesn't indicate FACTORY AMMO BOXES! What it says is it must be in boxes with separators between the cartridges, the ammo cannot be bulk packaged loose, or in gun magazines to be loaded into a rifle, or handgun. The handloader's plastic ammo boxes are fine, and fit the rules. If you are worried about them, then make your own labels on your computer, and use the clear plastic postal tape to go around the box, over the label, to effectively seal the boxes, and pretect the label. I have always done this, with the caliber, and load on the label, with type of bullet loaded in them. I use plain white paper for my soft points, and Yellow paper for the labels on my solids. I have never had a customs man do more then count the rounds through the translucent plastic boxes, and not once has any un-sealed them, or ask a question about them at all. The only thing I've been asked was, "Why are you taking empty cartridges home with you?" He only gave me a dumb look, when I told him, I re-load them.

Your poster on the other web site must have never been faced with $350 USD per box of 20 rounds, for factory loaded 470NE ammo. That's $17.50 USD per shot, for ammo that doesn't regulate as well as my handloads, loaded for about $5 per shot with better regulation, and better bullets.

I haven't fired even one round of factory centerfire rifle ammo in well over 10 years. Factory stuff is for .22's, shotguns, and spur of the moment pistol fun.

My Dad supplied my powder and primers as payment for me loading some of his ammo.....at 14 and younger.

You can only guess my opinion of factory ammo...

I have not used any ammo for big game other than handloads for 20 years. I don't load shot shells, and buy RWS and Eley .22 lr, but the centerfire stuff is all homegrown.

No PH has ever discouraged me from bring handloads. Won a few converts over to Barnes that way.

quote:

Hunting, however, does not require sub-minute of angle hits. The heart/lung shot on most game is what is desired, so if you can place all your hits within a 3-5" circle at 100 yards, you will make one shot kills while hunting big game.

A 3-5" circle at 100 yards translates into a 10-16" circle at 300 meters. That's a might larger than either if my two springbok's vital zones, both of which were taken at or beyond that range last June. Three of us hunted plains game on that trip. We took one rifle each, plus a fourth for a backup -- and not one round of factory loaded ammunition. The vast majority of our shots on the open plains of Southern Namibia were at 200 to 300 yards -- hardly the place for 5 MOA ammunition!

Our PH kills 1000 sprinbok each year for the commercial meat trade, and he shoots them all with handloads (his own). As you can imagine, he had no problem with our ammunition.

As the late Norman Mailer wrote in his novel Why Are We in Vietnam (actually about an Alaskan grizzly hunt), "Factory loaded ammunition is the great unspoken scandal of American family life."

Allow me to offer what apparently will be a contrary opinion. I am a handloader, and have been for years. In the last few years, I have sort of lost my interest in it, probably out of frustration in trying to make inherently inaccurate rifles shoot straight. Maybe I'm just a crap handloader.

Now, I keep only rifles with a demonstrated capacity to be accurate with factory ammo. My Ruger RSM 375 H&H consistently shoots 1" to 1/2" groups with a premium factory load using 300gr Swift A-Frames. I shot about 100 rounds of this load in practice before going to Africa last year (it cost me almost as much as the airfare ) to gain confidence in the load. My longest shot was 200+ yards on a springbok, and the bullet struck right where I held the crosshairs.

This is not a knock on handloading. There is no question one can extract the maximum accuracy from a rifle by handloading, in addition to becoming more knowledgeable and comfortable with that rifle. I personally find I just don't need it and have other things to do with my time.

I go away for 24 hours and look what I stirred up. Africa isn't in reach at the present time but hopefully someday I'll get there. I spent 45 days in Uganda with the Army in 04, got to see a lot of animals and a lot of lake Victoria even if only by air. I want to go back someday and bring back more than pictures. I'll do it with my own handloads as well.

I don't care what cartridge a person shoots while hunting as long as he/she can hit where they are aiming and it is the right tool for job. I just found the comment strange that hand loads were frowned upon by PH's. If a person wants to spend their money on factory loads that is all right with me.