The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Is The 375 Adequate For Buffalo?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Thanks for posting all the clips. Im headed over for my first Buffalo Hunt in August. Taking a .375 Model 70 and this post sure gives confidence! Pro Staff for: In Natures Image Taxidermy | |||
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Good luck. Use good bullets and you will have a fantastic time. | |||
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 Practice shooting off sticks. You will love it!USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Historically it would be difficult to find a more successful rifle/caliber combo for DG hunting than the Win M70 .375 H&H Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Yep. | |||
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this leads to a interesting question. I have limited experience with the 375 but a lot with a 338. I have taken a lot of animals with a 338 using 250 grain partition gold. That particular load has taken bear. moose, many elk and lots of other animals and I have never recovered a bullet, all have been complete pass throughs and have worked very well. The few animals that I have see taken with the 375 have not died any faster or slower than the 338. I really could not see any major advantage of the 375 over the 338. I know that in some places it is not legal but other than that any comments on the 338 for Buffalo vs the 375? | |||
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I've killed American bison with the 54 caliber black powder and the 338 Win Mag. All African buffalo have a minimum caliber of 375 or greater as required by the various African countries, so not sure about a current discussion of 338 vs. 375 on African buffalo, although I'm sure that African buffalo have been killed with smaller calibers than the 375 over the past century. I've killed a number of African buffalo with the 375 on up. | |||
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Pro Staff for: In Natures Image Taxidermy | |||
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Using the old steel jacketed 250 gr Hornady 338 solids I shot lenthways through a Cape buffalo , rear to chest Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Phil, Harry Selby told me the greatest penetration he’d ever seen was a 318 WR on a black rhino. Went full lengthwise. That round would have of course been nearly identical to your 338 example. .008 less in diameter and maybe a couple hundred fps slower. | |||
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Here's another 318 WR/338 Win Mag endorsement from Harry Selby, courtesy of D'Arcy Echols: Dear D'Arcy, Thanks for your e-mail. It is a bit complicated to answer which caliber I emphatically would choose as the best bet for a light rifle. Years ago I would have without doubt said the .318 Westley Richards with its .330 diameter 250 grain bullet at about 2400 FPS velocity. This cartridge had phenomenal knockdown power with soft nosed bullets and unrivaled penetration with the solid. Today this cartridge is no longer loaded as far as I know ... and .330 inch bullets are a custom proposition....But the .338-06 wildcat is very similar in performance. When I sang the praises of the .338 Win. Mag I really did not have animals weighing about 50 pounds in mind.... The .338 is a bit over the top for such game. I am very fond of all .33 calibers with the 250 grain bullet as I feel the 30s are a bit light for the larger antelope such as eland. In fact I would say that the 338 Win Mag is just a faster and somewhat flatter shooting .318 W.R. An excellent cartridge in all respects. Its difficult to say just what will happen to hunting in Botswana,,, surely it seems our new President is not in favor of hunting and the trend is towards photographic tourism... However we have an ever increasing elephant population and the quota has recently been doubled and then trebled. If they stop all hunting what happens to the elephant population and all the people (local) employed by the safari companies?. We will have to wait and see!!!. Cheers D'Arcy, and Best from Maun. Harry. | |||
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I have hunted with 338, 30, 284 and 277 caliber rifles. Many plains game from duikers, able zebra and eland. There is no way in hell, that I can honestly say one of them is better than the others! Hit the animal in the right place, with a decent bullet, end of story. | |||
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Saeed, you often talk about your ammo and bullet choices. If you didn’t have your own proprietary round, would you be using the .375 RUM, or the .375 H&H? Does the extra 2-300 FPS you load to make much or any difference as far as you can tell with regards to monometal bullets as far as terminal effectiveness, or is your choice more based on what is more accurate in your particular rifle? I’ve never found my .375 H&H lacking in accuracy, and while I “think” I see a bit more reaction to the shot with my .416s, both kill the buffalo fine. I’m just wondering if finding a faster .375 or going to a lighter bullet is worth tinkering with. I don’t shoot nearly enough buffalo to think my results would change anything, and the usual reason for more velocity (gives you less issues when shooting at a distance) is a non-issue with buffalo for me. As above, my use of the .375 has been exclusively 300 grain bullets. They have worked fine, but one isn’t really having as much fun as you can if you don’t fuss about your ammo between hunts! | |||
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Some more wisdom from Selby: Dear D'Arcy, Many thanks for your e-mail and apologies for the delay in getting back to you, we have had computer and power problems. We said 'Goodbye' to the Nelson party a few days ago... their safari appears to have gone off very well.. they seemed very happy with it. As regards your comments on the trend towards very large bore rifles becoming all the rage. I cannot agree with you more, it is totally ridiculous for people inexperienced in the use of big bore rifles to contemplate acquiring such monsters. In every case the shooter becomes more terrified of his weapon that he is of the animal on which he intends using the damn thing. I once had a client who brought a 460 Weatherby fitted with a variable scope and no iron sights the scope required readjustment just about every time the rifle was fired.. and our brave client was so scared of the thing that each time it required re-sighting I had to take the beating!!! I think one has to separate the choice of big game rifles between those who will be hunting with a backup and those who will have no back up, and of course the PH fits into the second category. I have always said that the choice for a heavy rifle for those in the second category should be a weapon of at least 400 caliber and be the sufficiently powerful to handle all situations... but the rifle should be chosen with ones own physique in mind, one should be able to shoulder and swing the rifle as easily as a shotgun. Obviously, someone weighing about 150/160 pounds standing say about five foot nine inches will not be able to do that properly with a heavy 577 he would be much better off and be more effective with a lighter rifle which he could handle properly... let's say the 450 straight or a 416 or even a 404. When it comes to those who are hunting with a backup, and I mean the typical client who does not usually have much experience with heavy rifles... I am very much against the big bores in the hands of tyros!! I once read something written by Craig Boddington.... he describes how a young PH's eyes lit up when he saw the clint's double barreled monster and commented that they would have no trouble on that safari... in fact it merely illustrated the young PH's inexperience. That monster with its open sights was probably not going to put the bullets where they should have gone, and the result... a wounded animal. Putting myself in the same position my eyes would light up if the client produced a well made and balanced rifle using the 375 H&H cartridge and fitted with a Leopold 1/2-5 power scope. I have seen every brand of scope including Zeiss, Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski, etc. go out on safari, but not once have I seen a Leopold go out). If the client is a reasonable shot ... those first most important shots will be where they should be and in all probability most times will result in on shot kills. In addition, if it is impossible to get closer to the animal somewhat longer shots can be taken with absolute certainty. I have to say here that I consider the .375 H&H the greatest cartridge ever developed by anybody, and over a career lasting fifty-five years my opinion of its performance and versatility has increased with the years. Now re. the 458. I used a 458 for quite a while whilst my 416 Rigby was being re-barreled and was perfectly happy with it... BUT to get the required velocity in that small case the powder has the be compressed very heavily. This results in two undesirable situations. If the ammo is not really fresh and has been exposed to Africa's hot sun the powder clumps and is blown out of the muzzle only partially burned resulting a disastrous reduction of velocity. (I have chronographed some older factory loads at 1600 / 1700 fps.) Whilst I was using the 458 I loaded a fresh batch of ammo for each hunt, in fact I carried one of those wonderful little Lee loader kits with me on safari. I was able to get quite easily in excess of 2100 fps with fresh reloads. The second problem with the 458 again relates to the case and the heavy compression of the charge. Due to the straight case and the heavy compression the bullets often become loose and can quite easily be twisted in the case. A case with a shoulder no matter how slight appears to add stiffness in this vital area unfortunately the, 458 does not have that. To sum up then, If I were you and a client wanted a 458 built I would explain that the ammo MUST be really fresh and crimped tightly into a groove preferably. Given those provisos the 458 can safely be used against anything. When using the 458 I found Hornady's 500 grain solids excellent, I never saw one taken from a buffalo or other large animal distorted, in fact on several occasions I loaded them again an used them as normal ammo. I like any of the new premium expending bullets.... Swift and Trophy bonded coming to mind. I particularly liked the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 400 gr. semi spitzer in the 458... producing ballistics of the 416 Rigby... very good on lion and large antelope. Cheers D'Arcy and I hope this helps a little, Harry. | |||
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1. There is no magic in my own bullets. They are made of normal copper stock which is used for earthing purposes in buildings. Common as you can get. Any of the mono metal bullets made today will perform exactly the same, and anyone who tells you otherwise is dreaming. 2. Intrinsic accuracy is not THAT important in a rifle for buffalo, as most are shot at closer ranges, and practically any rifle/bullet combination would be just fine. I used a 416 Weatherby a friend game me on one hunt. That rifle would not shoot any better than 1.5 inches. Shot elephants, many buffalo with it. 3. Standard 375H&H with mono metal will do just as well. The advantage my rifle-bullets combination have in the extra velocity and accuracy helps in hunting smaller game at longer ranges. As you all know, each rifle is a law unto itself. I get rifles here that would never shoot well. Others shoot very well with practically any bullet. | |||
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Hmmm... dunno about rifle, but caliber - 9.3x62mm? | |||
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The minimum was set many years ago, when rifles and bullets were entirely different. Then we got all the arm chair gun writers stating bigger is better. Then we have total idiots who claimed they use a 600 because there was no bigger gun. And we all saw in glorious high definition color their failures!  Use the rifle YOU can shoot accurately. Place your bullet in the right place. Nothing else to it. | |||
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Saeed, You are absolutely correct of course. A .30-06 or .303 will kill a buffalo deader than Joe Biden's reelection chances with a well-placed shot. Not the best choice, but I know someone who shot a whole lot of buffalo with a .300 WM. My choice is my .416 Rem. for all of the reasons you stated. | |||
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My friend, Roy Vincent, who I have been hunting with for 40 years, is a bigger is better man. Or used to be. He used to complain about me using minimum calibers to hunt with. He does not complain any more. He says because they WORK!  | |||
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Since reliable delivery of guns and ammo to the hunting field has so much trouble these days with the airlines and staffing. Regardless of the caliber. I'd sure give a lot of consideration as to what the hell I'd do if my guns got there and the ammo I spent months developing and practicing with was a no show. Another thing you CAN count on is nearly all hunting camps and a great many other hunters would have and likely share some .375 H&H ammo with you. IF and when you take some favorite less common caliber gun. What are you going to do for ammo if yours doesn't show up? Just something to consider that I feel is very important, or sure could be. That goes for any hunt anywhere. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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One never gets tired of Buffalo. I've only had the pleasure of taking 2 bulls long ago, but my .375 was enough gun. Saeed, thank you for all you have brought to this hunting fraternity.  Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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Saeed, you kill more buffalo on one or a few safaris than most hunters, including me, will kill in a lifetime. Your opinion carries a lot of weight. But not as much as a 51 caliber 570 grain Barnes TSX bullet at 2,500 fps MV generating 8,000 ft.-lbs. of ME. I don’t like head shots. I also don’t like follow ups. Walking tires me out. I want them dead on the ground, right where they used to be standing. There’s a good reason why there are weight divisions in boxing. Could Sugar Ray Leonard knock out any man standing? Probably. But if Sugar Ray were fighting Muhammad Ali, my money would be on The Greatest. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Are there stages of killing? Does a 500 kill at level 10 while a 375 kill at level 5? | |||
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Saeed, I will say this about that: Killing faster is better than killing slower. I’d use a howitzer if I could carry one. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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How fast an animal dies is not dependent on the caliber. I have seen the same animals being shot in the same place, and they have different times to expire. The idea is to disable it with your first shot. And for that I have found the 375 to be very good. Testimony to that is the number of buffalo I have shot, and never had to put up with any dangerous situation in follow up. If it take your fancy to use a bigger caliber, all good for you. We used to shoot seaguls. Everyone uses fast 22 and 243 caliber rifles. They laughed when I turned up with a 460 Weatherby1 Did not kill any better. | |||
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Thank you Saeed for sharing your massive experience with us! This thread is very interesting and really thought provoking, in a good way. I have some experience using expanding monometal bullets hunting a lot of things except truly big dangerous game. My experience tells me that velocity is the second most important ingredient to a quick and successful kill when using such bullets, shoot placement of course being the most important one as always. Is high speed less important when using larger caliber monometal bullets and when shooting truly massive animals offering very high resistance to the bullet? Saeed's custom .375 gives fairly high velocities using 300 gr bullets. To reach similar velocities using the good old .375HH it seems logical, at least to me given my past experience with this bullet type, to use 250-270 gr bullets. Do lighter, faster bullets give similar penetration and incapacitation on buffalo as the 300 gr ones traveling a bit slower? Looking in to this I find some people successfully using GS Custom 200 gr .375 expanding bullets on buffalo and I also find some, most notably Dr. Kevin Robertson, promoting the use of 350 gr and even 380 gr bullets claiming they elevate the .375HH to previously unseen levels of performance on heavy game. I am some what confused... but at the same time I am happy to conclude that the .375HH looks to be a good choice even for big five animals and you could use a lot of different bullets to get the job done. | |||
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I have said it an earlier post that having observed the results first-hand on DG, the 350gr Woodleigh bullet is a game changer for the 375H&H Mag. | |||
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Being a gun nut and a hunting nut I have tried a lot of different guns, calibers, bullets etc. over the years. I have taken hundreds of animals and have seen many more taken with just about any gun/caliber that you can think of. I have hunted and taken game with everything from old military rifles to the modern ultra high velocity rounds and a couple of things I have noticed is like Saeed stated the single most important thing is shot placement. The second most important is bullet terminal performance. Not much more can be said of shot placement, you either hit the right spot or you don't end of story. Terminal bullet performance is another issue. Some general observations on this is that speed is a double edged sword. Ultra high speed shots do produce spectacular kills when everything works as expected, however, I have had terrible bullet failures at high speed. Bullets completely come apart, make abrupt direction changes etc. The same bullet slowed down a little would perform much better. I have found that the sweet spot for most bullets to be a muzzle velocity of 2600-2900. When I get much over 3000 I start to get inconsistent terminal performance. My 338 puts a 250 grain nosler out at about 2800 and like I said in a earlier post it just works... Every time and I have never had a failure. That load has over 50 animals to its credit. if I could ever find a place that would allow me to hunt buff with it I would love it try it on one, but because most countries have a 375 minimum that probably will never happen. I think today most hunters get to caught up with using the "correct" gun and load for the game they are hunting. I know I have been in that camp for a long time. I think any reasonable gun/caliber will work for most game as long as the hunter behind the gun can put the shot where it suppose to go. | |||
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I'm late to this thread but I had to pipe in and say Saeed is THE man! Any PH would welcome him as a client and hope that all his clients have half the calm deliberate shooting skills displayed in Saeeds videos. That being said since I began guiding in 1979 I've seen many big game animals harvested including hundreds in Africa and while I don't discount the enormous volume of knowledge displayed here concerning ballistics and bullet choice I still would fall back to what I tell my clients when they ask me about which caliber of rifle to use and my response is always the same. Use as big a caliber as you possibly can shoot well! Saeed proves bullet placement is the number 1 factor in harvesting game of any size. I don't care if you use a .460 Weatherby if you're flinching so bad you can't hit a barn from inside you're going to have issues. Most men can withstand a .375s recoil in a moderately heavy bolt gun. I heartily agree with Saeed on the effectiveness of the venerable .375. SAFARISEAN | |||
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Using the Lazzeroni 9.53 Saturn, which is basically a 375/416 Rigby, I hunted with it using the Barnes 300 grain X bullets. Velocity was over 3140 fps. I was very disappointed with its performance, penetration wise. I had very strange tings happen. Shot a waterbuck in the hip - with my normal 375/404 this shot would mostly have gone all the way through his body. In this one in broke the hip, and went no further. An impala I shot behind the shoulder, blood spluttered all over te place as if he was hit with a bomb. He ran for quite a while before dropping. A zebra was shot on the shoulder. He took off is if hit by lightning, and ran for 200 yards before dropping. In the 375/404 I try to keep my bullets in the 2650-2800 fps range and this seems to work great. | |||
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Saeed, recoil must have been ferocious in that 9.53 Saturn. Yes, to high a velocity makes bullets do strange things including ricocheting off things that it shouldn't or mushrooming much too fast for poor penetration. However, I would have thought a monometal bullet like the Barnes X would have still penetrated through anything unless it came apart like it would if it hit a hard rock. | |||
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I did penetration test ere in our shooting tunnel. I used all sorts of different material. Plywood intermixed with books, plastics, silicone blocks with sand in them and all sorts of other thins. Best penetration was with velocities 2700-2900 fps. Below and above that made the penetration less. | |||
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Ladies and gentlemen, I have taken just about everything that I have hunted in Africa, Alaska, Canada and all over North America, with a 375 H&H bolt rifle, and several cape-guns and double rifles chambered with a 375 H&H with never a failure of them to take game properly with rarely needing a second shot. Though I love hunting with biger rifles as well, if I could have only one chambering in my hunting rifle it would be a 375H&h bolt or double! .................................  MacD37....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Ive shot about a dozen buffalo with the 375 H&H and 5 or 6 with my .338..In my case the buffalo made more tracks than those shot with a 375 not conclusive but best I can go by, and both calibers were suitable. Im sold on the 375, 416 or 404 and I really like the 9.3x62, these lesser calibers seemed to kill as well as my 470 N.E. I believe bullet construction is more important than caliber in all big game hunting within reason.. I can testify that Saeed is as fine a shot as anyone Ive known and Alan is as good a tracker and PH that Ive ever hunted with, he had a good coach growing up. Today, after retirement or simi retirement due mostly to age, my only "big bore" that I have not sold off, is the finest of the 375s, the 375 Ruger, shameful but it is what it is.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I’ll stick with Phil’s assessment. He has a bit more experience than probably 98% of other hunters. | |||
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+1 | |||
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No rifle has taken more Buffalo than the .375 and I don't think that number will ever be surpassed in history. Saying that, my experience is that there is a considerable difference in the reaction from the animal after getting hit by a .375 and .416. Marius Goosen KMG Hunting Safaris Cell, Whats App, Signal + 27 82 8205387 E-mail: info@huntsafaris.co.za Website: www.huntsafaris.co.za Skype: muis19820603 Check us out on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kmghuntingsafaris Instagram: @kmg_hunting_safaris | |||
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Would you be kind enough to explain the considerable difference you have noticed please? | |||
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Saeed, I'm trying to think of how to put this into words but will try. Almost like their spirit gets broken. I have always maintained that the "toughness" of an animal should not be judged on a good shot, but judge them on a bad shot. In my experience, I have found that Buff getting hit with a 416 stopped to wait for us a lot quicker than compared to a 375. Shoot them in the correct spot, and they all go down. The 416 just seemed to break them down better on the less than desirable shots. I fully appreciate the notion that a bigger caliber does not make up for a bad shot and agree that a good shot from a 375 is better than a bad shot from a bigger caliber. All factors be equal, a bad shot from a bigger caliber carries more value than a bad shot from a 375. If my hunters want to use one of my rifles, and not accustomed to larger calibers, then a well placed shot from the 375 will do the job. If they are familiar with larger calibers, then I will rather have them use my 416 Rigby. Marius Goosen KMG Hunting Safaris Cell, Whats App, Signal + 27 82 8205387 E-mail: info@huntsafaris.co.za Website: www.huntsafaris.co.za Skype: muis19820603 Check us out on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kmghuntingsafaris Instagram: @kmg_hunting_safaris | |||
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I've hunted Buffalo just one time. I can say that the .375HH was underwhelming in the face of a dugga boy, however I believe I have very strong evidence in retrospect that the factory ammo was bad. I've used a 458 and a 470 on larger animals and in light of that, the 375HH is truly "minimum caliber" rahter than optimal. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Is The 375 Adequate For Buffalo?
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