quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Honestly?

I suspect the most elephants have been killed with the 7.62x39.

At least that I have seen evidence of.

Poaching.

No.

Cannot be.
Paochers have been known to only use calibers bigger than 500

Along these same lines I have another although a little different question for all the intrepid hunters here. After seeing hundreds of animals shot with everything from mickey mouse guns to the latest whizzbang t-rex stoppers and doing a lot of reloading and testing of various guns and bullets I have found that most bullets regardless of Calibur have a sweet spot that maximizes their penetration and performance. What I mean by that is driving the bullets faster or much slower actually decreases penetration and performance. This applies to both soft and solid bullets.

For many years I was under the impression that the faster you drove a bullet the better it penetrated, especially with solids. After seeing evidence in animals that this was not always the case I started to experiment and found that dropping the velocity down a few hundred FPS actually helped penetration. Not sure of the physics behind it but it does appear to be the case.

Anyone else ever come across this?

A major factor that nobody has alluded to is that of "fear and anxiety" and how that in itself plays into an elephant hunt.

There's no doubt about the effectiveness of the 375, it's a proven calibre, but no PH will use one as his weapon of choice, where, in a tight situation one wishes for a 20mm recoiless gun!!!

We all agree that it's bullet placement with the right calibre that will bring down your quarry, but I've seen it too many times where nerves play a critical role in the first shot. Clients don't spend the hours in and around elephant on a daily basis, so fear and anxiety are ever present, and those are two factors not easily overcome, at any stage of your hunting life.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
A major factor that nobody has alluded to is that of "fear and anxiety" and how that in itself plays into an elephant hunt.

There's no doubt about the effectiveness of the 375, it's a proven calibre, but no PH will use one as his weapon of choice, where, in a tight situation one wishes for a 20mm recoiless gun!!!

We all agree that it's bullet placement with the right calibre that will bring down your quarry, but I've seen it too many times where nerves play a critical role in the first shot. Clients don't spend the hours in and around elephant on a daily basis, so fear and anxiety are ever present, and those are two factors not easily overcome, at any stage of your hunting life.

Head shot or lung/heart?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
A major factor that nobody has alluded to is that of "fear and anxiety" and how that in itself plays into an elephant hunt.

There's no doubt about the effectiveness of the 375, it's a proven calibre, but no PH will use one as his weapon of choice, where, in a tight situation one wishes for a 20mm recoiless gun!!!

We all agree that it's bullet placement with the right calibre that will bring down your quarry, but I've seen it too many times where nerves play a critical role in the first shot. Clients don't spend the hours in and around elephant on a daily basis, so fear and anxiety are ever present, and those are two factors not easily overcome, at any stage of your hunting life.

Head shot or lung/heart?

I'm fine with whatever a client wishes to try under the provisio that it may just not happen; the situation could well determine what shot to take.

My post above may be a tad confusing too. I'm referring more to a client who experiences anxiety when the reality of his elephant hunt starts playing itself out, and from 20 yards or so, nerves kick in big time. Those nerves often lead to poor shot placement and possibly even negative comments on the calibre being used, leading further into discussions regarding which is a better calibre to use on elephant.

quote:

I'm fine with whatever a client wishes to try under the provision that it may just not happen; the situation could well determine what shot to take.

Shouldn't you be the one who determines and directs the hunter at which part of the anatomy to shoot?

Those of us who are well-versed in elephant hunting also know that a head shot is not the easiest to accomplish, especially if the client has the jitters.

Neil,

I get the "fear and anxiety" deal for novice hunters. I had a lot of that on my first buffalo hunt. But frankly, I was more afraid of not performing well than I was of dying. Now, I just care that no one on my team gets hurt. Again, it's not about me. My "fear and anxiety" is for the trackers and the PH.

From the outside looking in it seems that clients and PHs carry rifles for two different but related purposes. The client will most likely take a considered, deliberate shot at a presumably unalarmed animal, while if the PH shoots the situation is already probably pear-shaped and may well be approaching catastrophic, with no time to be real picky and the chances of an ideal angle on a stationary target nonexistent.

While the ideal gun for the PH would work for the client, while perhaps not ideal, the reverse isn't true.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
From the outside looking in it seems that clients and PHs carry rifles for two different but related purposes. The client will most likely take a considered, deliberate shot at a presumably unalarmed animal, while if the PH shoots the situation is already probably pear-shaped and may well be approaching catastrophic, with no time to be real picky and the chances of an ideal angle on a stationary target nonexistent.

While the ideal gun for the PH would work for the client, while perhaps not ideal, the reverse isn't true.

Actually, reality is different.

No matter what caliber or how big it is.

A bullet in ther wrong place will do absolutely FA!

That is true whenever someone claims they: "shot some animal 5, 10, or 29 times and it still ran away for miles".

My thoughts on that is:
"the shooter is a piss poor shot".

George

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
That is true whenever someone claims they: "shot some animal 5, 10, or 29 times and it still ran away for miles".

My thoughts on that is:
"the shooter is a piss poor shot".

George

you should tell that to an hunter i guided for barrenground caribou and stopped after 13 shots and not because the caribou was dead but because he ran out of ammo. my 300 savage ended the suffering of the animal.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

I'm fine with whatever a client wishes to try under the provision that it may just not happen; the situation could well determine what shot to take.

Shouldn't you be the one who determines and directs the hunter at which part of the anatomy to shoot?

Those of us who are well-versed in elephant hunting also know that a head shot is not the easiest to accomplish, especially if the client has the jitters.

Ultimately, the answer would be "yes", however flexibility is required. If a paying guest wants to try a brain shot, be it frontal or side on, it becomes your job as a PH to do your best at putting your client in a position to fulfil his/her wish, surely?

If circumstances are such that you can't do so, then you should have a client who is already aware of the different scenarios that could play out. It is that simple.

Looking to do it with a bow next year if those GD Zambians can get their (concession) act together. Had to cancel October of this year in Zambia and was fortunate to scramble & reschedule September my buff/lion bow hunt.

As with any hunting:
1. know your equipment
2. know your anatomy
3. discretion is the better part of valor

The rest is up to the PH (know your game/habitat/preferred hunting methods/shot distance etc)

Hunting dangerous game is just that- dangerous. The PH and trackers all know that, place themselves knowingly in the face of danger and get paid and tipped appropriately.

Any and everyone in the hunting party can be inadvertently killed. It is not the hunter's "responsibility" to ensure everyone's safety because of their choice of caliber, etc. It is the PH's job to size up his client/equipment and ensure they are up to the task and then complete hunt accordingly.

Again:
See #1-3 above. All are equally important, but #3 is the most important.

Or you can just use an ubercaliber as a crutch since you suck.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
Looking to do it with a bow next year if those GD Zambians can get their (concession) act together. Had to cancel October of this year in Zambia and was fortunate to scramble & reschedule September my buff/lion bow hunt.

As with any hunting:
1. know your equipment
2. know your anatomy
3. discretion is the better part of valor

The rest is up to the PH (know your game/habitat/preferred hunting methods/shot distance etc)

Hunting dangerous game is just that- dangerous. The PH and trackers all know that, place themselves knowingly in the face of danger and get paid and tipped appropriately.

Any and everyone in the hunting party can be inadvertently killed. It is not the hunter's "responsibility" to ensure everyone's safety because of their choice of caliber, etc. It is the PH's job to size up his client/equipment and ensure they are up to the task and then complete hunt accordingly.

Again:
See #1-3 above. All are equally important, but #3 is the most important.

Or you can just use an ubercaliber as a crutch since you suck.

Why not Zimbabwe?

Anyway, good luck.

Because they don’t have farmed lion and buffalo?

I thought he meant hunting an elephant with a bow??!!

I do drier those who prefer to hunt with a bow.

But only those who actually hunt wild areas.

Not on specific farms which are designated for this.

I would gladly do Zim, even though technically legal, what I was told is the permit is unobtainable. Can't do leopard, croc or hippo in SA with a bow either.

ps I'm not going to get into a debate. I've shot lion & leopard over bait "in the wild." No different than any deer I've shot over a feeder. Rather anticlimactic.

pss all ribbing aside, I've just lost interest in rifle hunting. Even around the campfire after I shot something. The thrill is just not there any more.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Because they don’t have farmed lion and buffalo?

Archers are a different breed. They look down their noses at all other hunting types. I wonder if he is using a longbow? Wouldn't a true archer use a primitive bow?

Fly fisherman are the same way, its more about equipment, than the actual pursuit.

heck, I hunt with a bow, but don't pigeon hole myself as this or that. I just finished a 2 week Archery elk hunt (unsuccessfully) up at my Flagstaff house.

I have nothing against it what so ever, it's the elitist archer mentality I am troubled with.

I have some very VERY successful archer friends. I personally know 3 that have taken the North American 29 with their archery equipment. They are borish in their opinions of all other forms of hunting.

Funny, I was responding to the snob.

Frankly, I couldn’t care less how you hunt, where you hunt or who you hunt with. Couldn’t give a shit.

Snob. Well, since I and everyone who hunts with a rifle sucks, that’s really rich!

Hunt anyway you wish.

Your time, your money and your enjoyment.

Sad part is some bow hunters think hunting with a bow makes them superior hunters.

Which is not the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Hunt anyway you wish.

Your time, your money and your enjoyment.

Sad part is some bow hunters think hunting with a bow makes them superior hunters.

Which is not the case.

Which is precisely the point of my post to him.

There's reasons so many African countries have very strict guidelines for archery equipment and some don't even allow DG hunting with them at all.

I hunted a bunch with Alister Norton. I don't think anyone in here could say a negative thing about Alister. He told me, (when we were discussing me shooting a Buffalo with a bow) he has NEVER recovered a buffalo, other than just a carcass of a bow shot Buffalo.

Alister Norton . . . someone looking for a Zambian PH to hunt with need look no further . . . especially with so much drama these days surrounding other Zambian PHs and lost deposits.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Alister Norton . . . someone looking for a Zambian PH to hunt with need look no further . . . especially with so much drama these days surrounding other Zambian PHs and lost deposits.

100% there Mike

Jesus Christ.

I was just ribbing Jerry back…… ->

Oh and for the record I had never even picked up a bow until I was 56. Been on 2 bow hunts. So I don’t consider myself an archer, just someone who has gotten bored hunting with rifles.

Jesus Christ.

I was just ribbing Jerry back……

Oh and for the record I had never even picked up a bow until I was 56. Been on 2 bow hunts. So I don’t consider myself an archer, just someone who has gotten bored hunting with rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Because they don’t have farmed lion and buffalo?

Archers are a different breed. They look down their noses at all other hunting types. I wonder if he is using a longbow? Wouldn't a true archer use a primitive bow?

Fly fisherman are the same way, its more about equipment, than the actual pursuit.

heck, I hunt with a bow, but don't pigeon hole myself as this or that. I just finished a 2 week Archery elk hunt (unsuccessfully) up at my Flagstaff house.

I have nothing against it what so ever, it's the elitist archer mentality I am troubled with.

I have some very VERY successful archer friends. I personally know 3 that have taken the North American 29 with their archery equipment. They are borish in their opinions of all other forms of hunting.

There are elitists in every sport. Usually the ones who take it up with something to prove tend to look down on others. Happily they usually don’t last long before moving on.

I’ve bowhunted since I was a teenager with a longbow & recurve and built some of my own bows. I’ve flyfished since about four years old with my dad. Oh and I hunt with a rifle too.

To me they are just a sports I enjoy and could care less what others think. So don’t brand a sport as elitist by a few bad apples. That’s just another form of elitism.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Hunt anyway you wish.

Your time, your money and your enjoyment.

Sad part is some bow hunters think hunting with a bow makes them superior hunters.

Which is not the case.

Which is precisely the point of my post to him.

There's reasons so many African countries have very strict guidelines for archery equipment and some don't even allow DG hunting with them at all.

I hunted a bunch with Alister Norton. I don't think anyone in here could say a negative thing about Alister. He told me, (when we were discussing me shooting a Buffalo with a bow) he has NEVER recovered a buffalo, other than just a carcass of a bow shot Buffalo.

Last year Maktoum shot his first buffalo with a bow.

It took a while but they did get it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FMC:
Looking to do it with a bow next year if those GD Zambians can get their (concession) act together. Had to cancel October of this year in Zambia and was fortunate to scramble & reschedule September my buff/lion bow hunt.

Which concession?

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Neil,

I get the "fear and anxiety" deal for novice hunters. I had a lot of that on my first buffalo hunt. But frankly, I was more afraid of not performing well than I was of dying. Now, I just care that no one on my team gets hurt. Again, it's not about me. My "fear and anxiety" is for the trackers and the PH.

And I think that’s most novices experience
The fear of dying is not there for most as people feel safe with PH’s

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FMC:
Looking to do it with a bow next year if those GD Zambians can get their (concession) act together. Had to cancel October of this year in Zambia and was fortunate to scramble & reschedule September my buff/lion bow hunt.

Which concession?

I have no idea. I can't even remember, let alone pronounce any of those fucking African names let alone spell them or google where they are.........Triangle and Buffalo Range are easy

Butch Coaton is my PH and had been arranging it with Werner Van Noordwyk, going back to November of '22. He introduced us at Dallas this year and we discussed the concession nonsense, which should have been "settled shortly." April it became nut cuttin time for airfare and with no news we needed a Plan B. Butch was talking with one of his fellow Zim PHs (who also operates in Zambia- dunno where other than fly into Lusaka). He had an hippo & croc left on quota with a possible buff (a repeat client going in July only wanted to shoot a 45"+) but we wouldn't know about the buff until July.

My health took a turn for the worse, and not knowing what would happen with me I said fuck it (no buff was the deal killer). Didn't get any worse (still not that much better either) but was able to last minute my most recent bow hunt.

Butch is still looking at Zambia again to shoot an ele, croc & hippo with a bow. Now ele is top billing. Yes, I know, obliterated/fibrous pleural space, an arrow won't penetrate a rib, blah blah blah. Or try again for a hippo/croc with an obligatory buff for either. Fallback/Plan B is double buff in the Save.

Butch is a also bow hunter, not just someone who just PHs them. In '22 he was 9 for 9 with a bow, 8 one arrow kills (mine included). This year I forgot the numbers but he told me he had to use his 458 on a few (must be 3-7-5 H&H hunters in a past life)......


Back to the original question:
1. Know your weapon
2. Know your anatomy
3. Discretion/discipline

#3 is really the limitations of numbers 1 & 2 combined: a marginal shot is (usually) a bad one. Only have a marginal shot/worried about penetration- just don't take it (or go home and buy a bigger crutch caliber) if you really must pull the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FMC:
Looking to do it with a bow next year if those GD Zambians can get their (concession) act together. Had to cancel October of this year in Zambia and was fortunate to scramble & reschedule September my buff/lion bow hunt.

Which concession?

I have no idea. I can't even remember, let alone pronounce any of those fucking African names let alone spell them or google where they are.........Triangle and Buffalo Range are easy

Butch Coaton is my PH and had been arranging it with Werner Van Noordwyk, going back to November of '22. He introduced us at Dallas this year and we discussed the concession nonsense, which should have been "settled shortly." April it became nut cuttin time for airfare and with no news we needed a Plan B. Butch was talking with one of his fellow Zim PHs (who also operates in Zambia- dunno where other than fly into Lusaka). He had an hippo & croc left on quota with a possible buff (a repeat client going in July only wanted to shoot a 45"+) but we wouldn't know about the buff until July. No buff was the deal killer.

My health took a turn for the worse, and not knowing what would happen I said fuck it. Didn't get any worse (still not that much better either) but was able to last minute my most recent bow hunt.

Butch is still looking at Zambia again to shoot an ele, croc & hippo with a bow. Now ele is top billing or try again for a hippo/croc with an obligatory buff for either. Fallback/Plan B is double buff in the Save. (Yes, I know, obliterated/fibrous pleural space, blah blah blah)

Butch is a bow hunter, not someone who just PHs them. In '22 he was 9 for 9 with a bow, 8 one arrow kills (mine included). This year I forgot the numbers but he told me he had to use his 458 on a few (must be 3-7-5 H&H hunters in a past life)......


Back to the original question:
1. Know your weapon
2. Know your anatomy
3. Discretion/discipline

#3 is really the limitations of numbers 1 & 2 combined: a marginal shot is (usually) a bad one. Only have a marginal shot/worried about penetration- just don't take it (or go home and buy a bigger crutch caliber) if you really must pull the trigger.

You'll humble up when you watch 50K run off into nowhere. Or watch the PH anchor your whatever with a 4-5-8 anyway.

Concession makes a huge difference, I'd be sure I knew where I was going before dropping likely well into 6 digits.

Steve. Oh I agree.

I stated this earlier: The rest is up to the PH (know your game/habitat/preferred hunting methods/shot distance etc)

Experience trumps Google. I was extremely fortunate to have met Butch on my second African hunt. I have left everything up to him since. God only knows where I'd wind up if I did it on my own....I can't even remember if I wiped my ass this morning, let alone which animal lives where.....

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
Steve. Oh I agree. I'd love to hunt a brown bear. I just loved bear hunting. But I've been skunked 3X- 2 for 5 with one sow and one subadult. And that's with a rifle. I doubt I'd ever hunt NA with a bow (NOT BECAUSE I AM AN ELITEIST) but because Africa is such a bargain.


I stated this earlier: The rest is up to the PH (know your game/habitat/preferred hunting methods/shot distance etc)

Experience trumps Google. I was extremely fortunate to have met Butch on my second African hunt. I have left everything up to him since. God only knows where I'd wind up if I did it on my own....I can't even remember if I wiped my ass this morning, let alone which animal lives where.....

I will say this, I hunted Deadman Bay, Kodiak in 2000 IIRC. I was with one of the "well-known" archers I made mention of. We were with master guide, Tom Kirstein. Day 2, an archery opportunity came up. My friend hit the bear perfect at 16 yards. The bear ran ~60 yards and died.

So the effectiveness of archery equipment isn't lost on me.

[quote]Butch is still looking at Zambia again to shoot an ele, croc & hippo with a bow.

So you would be paying a Zim PH who is not registered to hunt in Zambia and to whom do you pay your your deposit?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Alister Norton . . . someone looking for a Zambian PH to hunt with need look no further . . . especially with so much drama these days surrounding other Zambian PHs and lost deposits.

When did you last hunt with Alister? you stating a character reference and all that.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Alister Norton . . . someone looking for a Zambian PH to hunt with need look no further . . . especially with so much drama these days surrounding other Zambian PHs and lost deposits.

100% there Mike

Steve, I communicate with all my hunters frequently, and when was the last time you had a chat with Alister?

Seems like your time would be better served by cleaning up your own dirty laundry and getting your client’s $80,000 deposit repaid as opposed to trying to deflect attention to others. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Alister Norton . . . someone looking for a Zambian PH to hunt with need look no further . . . especially with so much drama these days surrounding other Zambian PHs and lost deposits.

100% there Mike

Steve, I communicate with all my hunters frequently, and when was the last time you had a chat with Alister?

Really? When was the last time you communicated with me?

And my post about Alister was his statement to me about not ever recovering a bow-shot Buffalo.

I won't lower myself to these petty games. You're protecting the AR African Hunting forum like its your own private booking forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Alister Norton . . . someone looking for a Zambian PH to hunt with need look no further . . . especially with so much drama these days surrounding other Zambian PHs and lost deposits.

100% there Mike

Steve, I communicate with all my hunters frequently, and when was the last time you had a chat with Alister?

Really? When was the last time you communicated with me?

And my post about Alister was his statement to me about not ever recovering a bow-shot Buffalo.

I won't lower myself to these petty games. You're protecting the AR African Hunting forum like its your own private booking forum.

Gosh Steve my question was simply do you keep in touch?