I am sometimes confused by people who suggest the 375 H&H magnum is not suitable for the hunting of elephant yet the 416 calibers are the cats pajamas. (forget about the hundreds of thousands of elephant that have been killed by the 375 H&H.) My question here is why would someone want to go only one step up in caliber rather than two or three. If the 375 is no good I would suggest a 470 or 500 Nitro Express. I would just like to have a better understanding of this logic. Thank you all.

quote:

Originally posted by Slipjig:
I am sometimes confused by people who suggest the 375 H&H magnum is not suitable for the hunting of elephant yet the 416 calibers are the cats pajamas. (forget about the hundreds of thousands of elephant that have been killed by the 375 H&H.) My question here is why would someone want to go only one step up in caliber rather than two or three. If the 375 is no good I would suggest a 470 or 500 Nitro Express. I would just like to have a better understanding of this logic. Thank you all.

Asking for caliber debate in the hunting community…lol
It’s a good question (I agree BTW)
I’ve used .375…also .470
Also recently bought a .450/.400 for this purpose (although would have bought the rifle preferably in .470 or .500 all things being equal)
What about Karamojo Bell and his .303?
He shot 1 or 2….thousand….
The argument in my mind is about “big bulls” and penetration. To your point the bigger the better…why not .577?
If 416 why not 458?
It’s all preference and perhaps recoil tolerance
Bottom line is the discussion is mostly Subjective….not Objective…

Well.. This might shed some light on why I think bigger is better… This was my hunt with Karl in the Caprivi this past May when we were charged by a cow after shooting my bull

https://youtu.be/RA2jjZDlq-4?si=ZIvahmaiOZVLAGEl

I was shooting a 416 Rigby Double. I came home and bought a 450NE Verney Carron!!

I know hunters who had failures with the 577 T. Rex!

I have shot a few elephants with various 416 calibers.

And more elephants with various 375 calibers.

No difference whatsoever.

NON!

I went with a 416 Rem mag 400 gr. Barnes mono solids Great results.When I started going on archery and client hunts,I switched to the 500
Jeffries.Bigger can be better!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I know hunters who had failures with the 577 T. Rex!

I have shot a few elephants with various 416 calibers.

And more elephants with various 375 calibers.

No difference whatsoever.

NON!

As you well know, it’s where you hit them, not what you hit them with….

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I know hunters who had failures with the 577 T. Rex!

I have shot a few elephants with various 416 calibers.

And more elephants with various 375 calibers.

No difference whatsoever.

NON!

As you well know, it’s where you hit them, not what you hit them with….

Stop stating facts!

Bigger IS better!

Unless you’re a PH who needs a stopping rifle, a .375 does the job. A CNS shot does the job.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Unless you’re a PH who needs a stopping rifle, a .375 does the job. A CNS shot does the job.

Got a video sent to me.

Buffalo, not elephant.

Both the client and PH fired TEN shots.

Including one that completely missed the buffalo at a few yards!

That miss would have been as good as 50 BMG !

I was on a lion hunt that used giraffe for bait, we must have shot 5-6 giraffe, I shot all of them with my 505 except the last one. I don’t even remember why but I shot the last one with my 375 and a triple shok (same bullet I shot the lion with). It was running away from us in the brush and I hit him dead center of the spine at the back of his ribs. It absolutely cratered him and he never moved. When we opened him up it had gone straight up his spine and shattered every vertebrae up his back into the base of his neck. I can’t remember any of the ones with the 505.

A friend shot a giraffe with one of the 500’s.

Shot it too high.

The giraffe took off and he tried to shoot it in the head as that is all we could see above the trees.

My friend cousin far, so he stopped.

We continued after it.

It came to the road dividing our concession with the next one.

A Barnes X 300 grain out of my 375/404 hit it at the end of the tail.

Dropped right there.

Well, of the the cartridges mentioned, with the exception of one, the 416 Rigby has close to, or better muzzle and 100 yard energy. May not seem too critical but consider this - the 416 Rigby will fit into a considerably smaller envelope, and subsequently lighter rifle.

I have a Heym bolt rifle in 375 H&H, and an 88B in 416. Heym said the 416 Rigby was about the only non-rimmed cartridge they would do a double in, for the most part. Looking at the ballistics of the offered loads in 458, in 500, in 470, in 577, the Rigby had equal or better muzzle energy.

Now, please don't take this as none of those calibers are not awesome, they are. Truth is, over some threshold, 5000 Ft/# of energy is enough, whether it is 5000 or 5400. The critters don't know the difference. What does matter, is Where You Put The Bullet. Bullet placement matters FAR more than the type of bullet.

I feel very confident with the 416 Rigby, that I can put bullets where they need to be. Feel as confident with the 375, but if I had any doubts, would prefer the 416.

I am not an elephant hunter and never will be. I shot one trophy bull of over 60lbs a side and another in self-defense at a measured 9 feet using the 404J for the first and a 500NE for the second and the result was the same. Both head shots.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I am not an elephant hunter and never will be. I shot one trophy bull of over 60lbs a side and another in self-defense at a measured 9 feet using the 404J for the first and a 500NE for the second and the result was the same. Both head shots.

Do you think a .375 solid in the same spots would have given a different result?

Nothing wrong with 375s for Elephant. Harry Manners shot hundreds with two M70s in 375 H&H, and we have better bullets today than they did then.

Stepping up to a 400gr 416/404/450-400 gives you a nice jump in sectional density which definitely shows better penetration, and 33% more bullet weight.

Although, a hunter can always load up 350gr 375s and have an even higher sectional density...

For some, recoil will become a real issue with the various 458s. We load the 416s around 2200fps with 400gr bullets, personally I think there's less "felt recoil" than from my 375.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I am not an elephant hunter and never will be. I shot one trophy bull of over 60lbs a side and another in self-defense at a measured 9 feet using the 404J for the first and a 500NE for the second and the result was the same. Both head shots.

Do you think a .375 solid in the same spots would have given a different result?

No and a 375 solid would have penetrated better

Its definitely where you put that bullet, not strictly what kind of bullet going how fast.

Without a doubt a solid should be penetrating better than either a cup and core bullet, or a mono-metal expanding type bullet.

Having only been at the shooting of a few elephants, I am no expert and I am not saying that a 375 is useless but when you get up and personal with an elephant especially in thick bush (and there is usually more than one around) you always wish you had an even bigger gun and all these wonderful thoughts of being like Harry Manners and Bell soon disappear. If life ended with the .375 then bigger calibers would not have been invented or still being used!

Bigger is not better if you don't shoot well with it and that applies to use on any animal.

I would say penetration is important which is why the 375 and 416s are very popular. The big nitros sometimes seem to fail in this regard especially given that most time I would guess regular solids are being used with them because of regulation issues, rather than the mono metal solids.

A double rifle is probably better than a bolt gun as most times elephant need a quick second shot "at least"! Here again this applies only if you can use a DR well, not just bought one and wheeling it out for the first time because you have seen Mark Sullivan use one!

And for those who keep shouting a brain shot is a brain shot then Bell proved it at least 1000 times that a 275 was enough, so why then even use a 375!

As was explained to me by Ivan Carter, the momentum in the bigger bullets seems to work better on brain shots with elephant.

The bigger bullets seem to knock them down better… as in near misses drop them. The additional .036” isn’t the issue.

Since almost every elephant hunter insists on insurance, it can be hard to tell the near miss KO from the actual brain shot.

As to penetration, I’ve been told the .416/400s at roughly 2400 are the most penetrating, and I’ve seen them go through the skull and multiple vertebrae and exit on a frontal shot attempt. I’ve had .470’s that didn’t exit the skull. Penetration isn’t all of it.

Every PH I’ve hunted with has wanted me to use something larger than the .375, but they have also seen me shoot larger bores well. The comment is the biggest you shoot well.

I’ve killed 1 bull with a .416, the rest with a .470… 5 total. All were brain shots, 2 being frontal.

Remember that generally it’s not a hard target. Roughly the size of a football shot at 20 yards or less ideally… it’s realizing where the brain is that’s the trick.

So to the OP- if you can handle the bigger rifle well, bigger is better.

As .416 and .375 magazine rifles are about the same money and about the same external ballistics is why everyone goes on about .375 vs .416. They are more generalist than the bigger rounds, and the most affordable. Generally, bigger is better… as long as you can shoot it well enough.

My experience is purely with bull elephants. The cows generally are much smaller in skull size, so penetration is even less a factor there, but you are dealing with herds and potential multiple animal charges.

My very first elephant, over 40 years ago.

Using a bog standard Remington 700 in 375 H&H with Winchester solids.

The elephant was hidden slightly, so Roy suggested I move forward a bit, and brain him.

I had it in my mind that I would fire, reload, fire, reload and on and on.

As I fired, the elephant dropped like a sack of potatoes!

No drama whatsoever!

You might consider looking at the calibers of the rifles that the PHs that spend a season in the bush hunting elephant or hunting in and around elephant use. That is far more informative in my view than the anecdotal observations of the causal elephant hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You might consider looking at the calibers of the rifles that the PHs that spend a season in the bush hunting elephant or hunting in and around elephant use. That is far more informative in my view than the anecdotal observations of the causal elephant hunter.

Bullshit!

Professional hunters need a stopper.

Sports hunters don’t.

I suspect more elephants killed by sports hunter using 375 than any other caliber!

I guess it is indicative of two different hunting styles. Some clients/hunters prepare for and go on a trip with the view of being able to pull their own weight regardless of the circumstances and not be dependent on the PH to have their back. Some hunters are completely content to rely on the PH when the going gets tough, in fact, some are content to let the PH follow wounded game without them or even to have the PH shoot game for them. Guess it depends on what your expectations are for yourself as a hunter. To each their own. For me, I would be reluctant to pick a caliber based on the logic that if the situation turns nasty I can always rely on the PH. Your mileage may vary.

quote:

I suspect more elephants killed by sports hunter using 375 than any other caliber!

That could be so though not always are the facts and sequence of events disclosed other than so and so killed his Elephant using a 375.

A first time Elephant hunter would most likely be instructed to go for a heart/lung shot as it would be the safest and at least 70% of the time the PH will unload a round or two into the fast disappearing mass.

Again though not always, the client, especially the "newbie", will likely ask the PH to assist by dispatching an insurance shot or more when DG is involved and I don't find anything wrong with that.

Then of course there are the stubborn ones who know all there is to know about anything and everything, make it a point of refusing to be assisted and are the ones who quite often get landed with a bill for "wounded and lost".

So yes, the 375 and calibers inferior to the 375, in the right hands, can get the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
My very first elephant, over 40 years ago.

Using a bog standard Remington 700 in 375 H&H with Winchester solids.

The elephant was hidden slightly, so Roy suggested I move forward a bit, and brain him.

I had it in my mind that I would fire, reload, fire, reload and on and on.

As I fired, the elephant dropped like a sack of potatoes!

No drama whatsoever!

That's what happens when a bullet hits the brain and hunters should be familiar with the anatomy and not so much the calibre

some knowing Don Heath might have a laugh on bigger is better knowing what he used for elephant rifle even back up with clients ...

Well, since bigger is better, we should all be hunting elephants with a .700 NE double……

It's not the diameter, it's the sectional density and the construction of the bullet that matter. Penetration is the name of the game. Bell used a 6.5. Hunter used a 500NE. They both killed a lot of elephants.

You can all make as many arguments as you wish.

But ultimately what kills is the destruction of vital organs.

And if anyone thinks 0.041” or 0.083” is going to make any difference be my guest.

Best part is the arguments from those who have experience hunting elephants!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
You can all make as many arguments as you wish.

But ultimately what kills is the destruction of vital organs.

And if anyone thinks 0.041” or 0.083” is going to make any difference be my guest.

Best part is the arguments from those who have experience hunting elephants!

Saeed,

Just curious. What velocity are you pushing your 404 cased 375's? Thanks.

Why the bigger gun? Every time I get to bad breath range with elephants, no gun seems big enough .

I guess since bigger is not better, the converse is true as well. Smaller is no problem. I look forward to seeing some hunting videos of guys using .22-250's and .243's on their bulls.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I guess since bigger is not better, the converse is true as well. Smaller is no problem. I look forward to seeing some hunting videos of guys using .22-250's and .243's on their bulls.

I doubt it,since all African countries have minimal caliber or muzzle energy requirements….

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I guess since bigger is not better, the converse is true as well. Smaller is no problem. I look forward to seeing some hunting videos of guys using .22-250's and .243's on their bulls.

I doubt it,since all African countries have minimal caliber or muzzle energy requirements….

. . . maybe because they appreciate that bigger is better.

Yep. I foresee a huge jump in sales of .700 NE doubles.

I do have a 700 NE, as well as a 600 NE and others smaller.

If at anytime I have ever felt bigger is better, I would be hunting with these.

But I have learned that in the hunting field, size makes no difference.

Put the bullet in the right place, and all arguments stop!

We were hunting plains game in Zimbabwe, and I had a 270 Ackley with me.

We saw fresh lion tracks.

I said to my PH that we have the wrong caliber for lion.

His answer was "the lion wouldn't know the difference!"

Logic.

I wonder how the percentage of hunters that hunt elephant that end up going up in caliber from the first elephant they hunt compares to the percentage of hunters that hunt elephant that end up going down in caliber from the first elephant they hunt. You hear people say all the time, “I went down in caliber after my first elephant because it was just too much gun.”

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

I suspect more elephants killed by sports hunter using 375 than any other caliber!

That could be so though not always are the facts and sequence of events disclosed other than so and so killed his Elephant using a 375.

A first time Elephant hunter would most likely be instructed to go for a heart/lung shot as it would be the safest and at least 70% of the time the PH will unload a round or two into the fast disappearing mass.

Again though not always, the client, especially the "newbie", will likely ask the PH to assist by dispatching an insurance shot or more when DG is involved and I don't find anything wrong with that.

Then of course there are the stubborn ones who know all there is to know about anything and everything, make it a point of refusing to be assisted and are the ones who quite often get landed with a bill for "wounded and lost".

So yes, the 375 and calibers inferior to the 375, in the right hands, can get the job done.

fulvio you are making a vary valid point here, statistics can be manipulated to show whatever point of view one wants.

To get a truer comparison of the killing effects of various calibers on elephant one should be comparing the results using first shot animal kills. Based on the argument that shooters are more likely to better place their first shot when using a more pleasant 375 to shoot than with larger heavier recoiling calibres one may expect to see 375 calibres rein supreme BUT I for one would not bet on that result showing up.

It is hard to get a true picture of the killing effect of various calibres when the hunter is putting in multiple shots and the PH in some cases also putting in shots on animals. As fulvio says, you only hear of the calibre of the rifle a hunter was using and that he got an elephant, even videos can be edited to hide the truth if the hunter so wishes!!!

I imagine it would be an entirely different picture if hunters today were hunting on their own with perhaps just a couple of trackers with them. That would surely sort the boys from the men for both hunters and the guns they carry.

Intelligent people use their own experience.

They don't listing to arm chair hunters.

Honestly?

I suspect the most elephants have been killed with the 7.62x39.

At least that I have seen evidence of.

Poaching.