What is the access of odd ammunition in Tanzania and Botsvana? Should I take into consideration when buying a new gun?

Reason why I'm asking is that I can buy a new Dakota 76 African in 416Dakota for less that half the price tag. It's a very nice piece of a gun.

I suspect the odds of running into .416 Dakota ammo would be somewhere between slim and none anywhere in Africa. But at least the .416 Dakota is a legitimate factory cartridge, and a very good one. If you take enough ammo, you should be in good shape, but if your luggage gets lost that contains your ammo, you'll be S.O.L.

That's the beauty of the .458 Lott -- at least you can shoot .458 Win. Mag. out of it if necessary and complete your hunt.

AD

As many on this forum know, I have a tendency to wildcat cartridges...

That being said; however, if you love the rifle, buy it but also bring along a back-up rifle when dangerous game hunting in the form of a 375 H&H or 375 Weatherby (can use H&H ammo in a pinch).

Or as Allen (posting at same time)just mentioned another cartridge that has the interchangeability of the 375 H&H in 375 Weatherby, bring a back-up or main gun in 458 Lott (with 458 win mag interchageability).

Personally, I will have a 375 Weatherby built- I can then fire 375 H&H ammo in a pinch, yet still be able to gain 150fps or so with 300-350gr bullets when using the 375 Weatherby.

A half priced Dakota will leave a few sheckels to rechamber to .416 Rigby.....ask your local smiths if this can be done.....the Rigby case is slightly larger than the Dakota cartridge and will probably work thru the action nicely and the .416 Rigby will be far more available than the (wildcat status) .416 Dakota.

Personally I'd consider the .416 Dakota to be a wildcat and that the ammo you're going to have is the ammo you bought with you no matter where you go. I live a few miles from the Dakota plant and couldn't get you ammo in a couple days!!!

I don't know that a 416 Dakota is a big enough action to hold a 416 Rigby. Like I said I don't know, just a thought.

I would never buy a rifle based on such a decision anyway.

Buying a rifle for what you can do with it now is a much better thing to do than buying one for what you can do with it later.

After all you can buy 404 Jefferys brass in Norway even if you can't buy the 416 Dakota locally. I am sure that Dakota, Midway, or Cabelas would be willing to mail the Dakota brass to you anyway.

been through it before, i've got a matching pair of dakotas in 375 & 416 dakota. on a trip to zambia the bag holding the 375 dakota ammo was lost. End result was to leave the 375 because of no ammo. that said i found getting ammo to be a real problem even in joberg. There are a few standard calibers available but your dakota calibers aren't among them. that said, i've had excellent success with both rifles. the 416 dakota is something I at least wouldn't even consider rechambering, one thing i did learn from the episode was to split everything into 2 bags so even if they loose 1 we have enough to get by with.

TOMJAC- just replying to your deleted post:
If you are relying on two uncommon cartrides (470NE-yes, despite its African reputation, will be very hard to find there & 416Dakota)for Africa, you better have some flexibility built into your logistics or else be prepared to hunt with the PH's back-up rifle.

I would personally go with one uncommon cartridge that is at least interchangeable with another (375 wea., 458 Lott) and a back-up or an uncommon cartridge with a back-up rifle in 375 H&H/Wea or 458 Lott/win mag

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Originally posted by CanadianLefty:
_TOMJAC- just replying to your deleted post:_

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I did push a wrong bottom.

This rifle would be my backup for 470NE. 470NE is not THAT odd in Africa, I did recently found it in many stores.

re:

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...470NE is not THAT odd in Africa, I did recently found it in many stores

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I am a bit surprise by this, but it is great to hear.

Re: pushed wrong button - Yup this sofware is a PITA to use and will take some getting used to for sure!

TJ,

I own a 375 H&H and a 458 Lott..But if your heart is on wildcats just make sure you have two bags in luggage and split your ammo in half between both bags...sixty rounds 30 per bag and have both solids and softs in each bag also...

Mike

My experience in looking for ammo in Africa is limited to South Africa and Tanzania. In the store in Hoedspruit (closest town to where I was hunting in SA) the only ammo available was 375 H&H and 9.3 X 62, period. In Tanzania good luck on finding anything. And don't expect your PH to necessarily have on hand what you might need if anything is lost in transit. You increase the odds of finding ammo with the .375 H&H but you guarantee nothing. My advice is to discuss way in advance with your outfitter/PH what you intend to use and ask your PH what he would have on hand should you show up with nothing. He most likely won't provide anything other than 300 WinMag, 375 H&H or 9.3 XX 62 unless you ask him specifically to buy it to have on hand and you agree to reimburse him the cost, whether you use the ammo or not.

Do you all follow the airliner rules to keep the bolt separate from the gun?? One bolt in each bag??

I forgot to add that I would probably buy the .416 Dakota if it's a good deal and take my chances. Nice rifle.

The bolt in a seperate bag rule seems illogical to me and some airlines won't allow gun parts in the carry-on luggage. So you have two checked bags (in addition to the rifle case) and if one gets lost you've got no rifle. I think I would prefer to have my rifle arrive and scrounge for clothes if that bag was lost. Even in Tanzania you can buy a shirt and pants.

I fail to see an positive reason to go with wildcat cartridges at all. You have to look really hard in the mirror and tell yourself a whole lot of sweet little fibs in order to make the wildcat route a feasible endeavor, at least in your own mind.

Most wildcats offer absolutely zero advantage over standard factory chamberings, but ten-times the hassle.

AD

I tried that "bolt in another bag" idea on a return flight from Cape Town - BAD idea!

They went ballistic about "GUN PARTS!!!" in the checked bag [not even the carry-on]. [They also did not go for the ammo in the gun case {even the empty brass} in spite of the SAA rules that allow/require it]

What good would it do anyway? It just increases your chances of something going amiss. Maybe a statistician could give us the odds?

Les

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Originally posted by allen day:
I fail to see an positive reason to go with wildcat cartridges at all... Most wildcats offer absolutely zero advantage over standard factory chamberings, but ten-times the hassle.

AD

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Allen,

1. How do you feel about what I call the advantages of interchangeable ammo, like the 375 Weatherby w/H&H ? In this case, you still have the back-up 375 H&H ammo that can be fired in the rifle, but gain about 100-150fps or so usingn300gr-350gr bullets or can fire same vel. ammo at lower chamber pressures.

2. If you had a back-up rifle in a factory cartridge, say 375 H&H- wouldn't it be worth it to hunt PG with a 300 Dakota or 330 Dakota over a 300 win mag or 338 win mag. It gives you about 100-200fps more vel., no belt, std.length action- basically the performance of a 300 Wea. or 340 Wea. out of a 24" barrel, with better accuracy (headspacing on shoulder, no belt) and shorter bolt throw???

Saeed, I would love for you to comment on the use of wildcats in relation to this thread in general.

I agree with Allen Day about factory only cartridges with one nuance: it's a factory cartridge readily available where you are going. The .416 Rigby is a factory cartridge but that doesn't mean your PH or any local store will have it. No different than a wildcat if they don't have it where you go. Do you see of lot it on your local sporting goods store's shelves? It can of course be ordered in the US, as here in France, but the 375 H&H and the 458 WinMag are the only cartridges I would think you have much of a chance finding anywhere in Africa, at least in the larger calibers.

CanadianLefty, why are you interested in wildcats at all?

AD

Sure Allen, answer my question with a question ! hehehe

Come on, an open and honest question deserves an open and honest answer I really respect your experience and am curious as to your answers.

I think that I made a good case for having one interchangeable ammo rifle (back-up) and a highly efficient non-standard factory round rifle (primary--i.e. Dakotas) for a two gun Safari battery that includes PG and buff or similar. For instance:

1.300 Dakota w/ a 375 Weatherby
2.330 Dakota with a 416 rem mag or 458 Lott.

You ask a valid question, as sometimes we are really splitting hairs when it comes to justifying our love of a certain cartridge. To answer your question completely: I am interested in pure performance and efficiency (call it the consultant in me), not non-standard factory ammo per se.

To take it one step further, I think if the 300 win mag were to have been built as a 300 Dakota by Winchester, there would have never been the need of a 300 win mag nor the 300 Wea. The 300 Dakota is virtually the ballistic twin of the 300 Weatherby out of a 24" barrel.

Substitute the 330Dakota in the above example, and there would have never been the need for a 338 win. mag. or the 340 Wea.

What say you?

As to how to pack your guns, bolts and ammo, Don't count on any airline employee to have a clue what their own rules are. i have run into it repeatedly. Get as much data as you can on their rules and if possible get a copy of the rules from the airline website. Then when they jump you, you pull out the copy of the airlines rules they tend to change the subject. If they permit it I say put gun, bolt and ammo in the same case. Some airlines permit this and some don't. If it is all in one case and it is there you got everything. If it is seperate and one bag goes missing you may still have no functional rifle. If you must seperate gun and ammo it makes sense to put some ammo for each gun in each bag. Ask Saeed about traveling with wildcats. I don't think he hunts Africa with anything but. I bet if anyone has had issues he has. Good hunting.

I took a .376 Steyr to Zim in '01 for a hunt. I expect I had the only ammo source in country for that rifle with me.

I was planning to be in Harare for a couple of days before the hunt, and that time was enough for the bags to catch up before we went hunting.

The rifle case flies "high security", so it usually arrives when the other bags do not. I keep the bolt in the rifle case, so at least the rifle is complete.

I borrowed .375 H&H ammo in Namibia once when the bags didn't come for four days.

jim

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This rifle would be my backup for 470NE. 470NE is not THAT odd in Africa, I did recently found it in many stores.

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Tomjac,

In which country(s) was that?

I found very few gunshops with much of a choice in ammo (or guns for that sake) in most african countrys I've been to. RSA would be an exception, but even there it varied a lot...

Gentlemen,

I have never had any of my rifles or ammo not make it with me to my destination, so whatever follows is only an opinion IF something should happen.

It makes absolutely no difference what caliber you are using, wildcat or factory, the likelyhood of you being able to pick some ammo in an African store is pretty remote.

So the way I look at it, if the worst comes to the worst, I will have to borrow my PH's rifle to do my hunting with.

In which case I would have very little choice too, because whatever rifle he has on offer, will just have to do.

Take the rifle you are comfortable hunting with, whether it is a wildcat or not. The chance of it not making it is one of those you just have to take.

I have heard of at least one instance where a rifle somehow got lost, and up to now there is still no sign of it.

The argument that one should have all his ammo with the proper headstamp also seems to me rather far fetched. I am not sure who first brought this up - probably Art Alpin of A-Square, just because he started loading ammo for some of the wildcats, and wanted to make sure you bought his wares, if for no other reason at all.

Apart from my very first hunt in the early 1980's, I have used wildcat on all my hunts, and I have never, ever came across any of these problems.

Designing my own wildcat, and building the rifles for them, is just an extension of why I like to hunt.

I enjoy it just as much as I enjoy reloading my own ammo, making my own bullets, and using all these on my hunts.

As has been mentioned already, there is absolutely nothing on this earth that cannot be hunted with a factory offering. In fact, there is absolutely no reason to have all the varied cartridges we do have on offer today.

But, being what we are, each of us has his own favourite cartridges for one reason or another.

To get on this forum we have to have a computer, and just as I suspect the majority of you are using store bought computers to log on, some of us prefer to build our own.

Sometimes for the heck of it, and sometimes to meet certain requirements the factories cannot possibly meet.

We take lots of videos and hi-resolution digital cameras. These require a lot of disk space, so for those who might be interested, here is the spec of the computer I have just finished building.

Intel P4 3.6GHz
2 GB DDR2 RAM
4 WD 74 GB 10,000 hard drives - each two are set in a striped RAID
2 Maxtor 300 GB hard drives, also in a striped RAID.
ASUS P5GD2 PREMIUM motherboard
ATI X700 graphic card

One thing we might bear in mind.

If it was not for wildcats, many cartridges offered by the factory today would never have seen the light of day

If you are stressing about being able to find ammo in Africa, then I suggest the following 2 gun battery for safari:

1. Bolt action .308 winchester.

2. Bolt action 7.62 x 39.

If your ammo does not arrive, then proceed to the nearest store and purchase 10 cases of beer. Travel to the nearest police station and explain that you need 500 rounds of .308 and 7.62 x 39 for "baboon control" (which is in the public interest) and that you "found" 10 cases of beer which you need to turn in for lawful disposal. Depending on the country, they will have either .308 or 7.62 x 39 and you will be on your way to hunt, and the policeman will enjoy a relaxing day at the office.

I am the economically challenged version of Saeed.

Just to be not-too-copy-cat, I have selected the .375 Lapua as my pet wildcat. A Dan Lilja stainless, fluted number 6 sporter contour 26" length, 12" twist barrel is on order. It will go on a CZ 550 Magnum instead of a Dakota action.

I am sure I will derive the similar pleasures from this as Saeed gets from his .375/404 wildcat.

I am sure Allen Day does not have any tendencies in this direction.

CanadianLefty is right-on about the .375 Weatherby. We should all be hunting with the .375 Weatherby exclusively, but variety is the spice of life. BTW, the .375 Weatherby does not do much better than the .375 H&H with light bullets and fast powders, but with the heavier bullets (300 to 350 grains) and the slower powders, it will easily do 200 to 250 fps faster than the .375 H&H, with similar pressures.

As to availability of .416 Dakota brass from Dakota, I bought the last they had of it in December 2004, and I only have 140 pieces of it.
My .416 Dakota is completed and is on a Winchester M70 with Douglas #5 stainless sporter, 12" twist and 24" length.

Hopefully they will revive the .416 Dakota, probably the best .416 cartridge possible, but they have let it fall by the wayside, pushing their .404 Dakota shortie.

I have always left the bolt in the rifle in the Tuff-Pak. I have never put ammo in the gun case. Some airlines must be totally screwed up if they require otherwise.

You have to have extra bags or the bags of a companion to split up the ammo, but that is an excellent idea.

I think that 500grains is not being fascicious (sp?). If you are really worried that much about losing ammunition, are you really in the right game? If you think wildcats are hard to find in African gunshops, give a vintage Brit. caliber a try. ".318 Westley Richards? Let me see, I think we had some in stock, oh, about 50 years ago when my grandfather ran the business." Shoot what you like. Take your own ammo. Believe in the odds (which greatly favor everything arriving at the right place at the right time). Go hunting. Have fun.



Sheesh!

Gentlemen, In Allen's defense, There are some issues with wildcats that are simply not worth putting up with. Haveing said that, let me clear the air, by stateing I have several wildcat firearms, and enjoy them to no end. As Saeed says there is simply something sattisfying about makeing your own hunting equipment, whether it be a spear, or cannon!

The ammo going missing on a trip to a hunt is a possibility, and if it happens the nearest thing to 100% reliability is to have at least one 375 H&H rifle, or something you can fire 375 H&H ammo in. Almost any place where you can buy ANY ammo, 375 H&H is likely the be available. A little less assured is the availability of 458 WM, to use in your 458 LOTT, but either of the four is far more likely to be available than 416 DAKOTA !

MacD37, please do not infer that any of us were attacking Allen Re: "Gentlemen, In Allen's defense,...).

On the contrary, most of us probably would really appreciate his answers on this matter and the questions that I asked of him.

Remember, a good discussion brings knowledge and different viewpoins that we can all learn from-- it is with this in mind, that I'd like Allen to respond

don't kill me for this since I honestly don't know, what is the possibility of shipping some ammo over ahead of time if you are worried?

Red

If you are worried about losong your ammo, then you can really only go to Africa w/ a .270, .30-06, .375, or .458wm. You're rifle may not make it & you have a bag full of ammo. You roll the dice either way. If you are going w/ someone else, you can split rifles & ammo up so you each have something to hunt w/.

As I understand it, the reason som eairlines want the gun and the bolt to be in separate bags, is to render the gun useless in case of theft. Of course, doubles the chanse of YOU having a useless gun!

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Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

The argument that one should have all his ammo with the proper headstamp also seems to me rather far fetched. I am not sure who first brought this up - probably Art Alpin of A-Square, just because he started loading ammo for some of the wildcats, and wanted to make sure you bought his wares, if for no other reason at all.

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I had my ammo checked ofr headstamp in Hong Kong. I was taking a .35 Whelen and, as luck would have it, I _did_ have properly headstamped brass. More surprisingly, the inspector actually knew what one was and said that the process would have taken a lot longer if I'd had necked out .30-06 brass. He also said that my ammo _might_ have been confiscated if it hadn't matched the gun.

Now, I make sure that the headstamp and the caliber marked on the rifle agree.

There's a gun shp in Bulawayo that has ammo, 416 Rigby, 375 H&H, 06, 308, 458, 300 WBY, lots more. expensive, but there. jorge

Dego Red

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what is the possibility of shipping some ammo over ahead of time if you are worried?

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At least to RSA it's almost impossible to export ammunition there. Further if you ask the outfitter to have a certain kind of ammo on hand for you he may not be permitted the purchase of ammo unless he has a registered gun in that chambering and then he is limited to the amount of ammo he can purchase in a year. I detest the BS one goes thru with the ammo as it seems worse to carry ammo than the guns. However at least to RSA the chances in sending ammo in advance is almost nil. At the end of the Safari I leave the balance of ammo with my PH as a gift.

I've even looked to sending dies, cases and bullets there to have them reloaded for me and ready....this too has difficulties.

On other subjects....I'm with Allen Day on this one.....I can find no, to little, use for a wildcat and further the 100-200 feet/second gained after one has reached the velocities of the .30-06 is practically useless...purely emotional as few hunters I've ever seen can shoot well enough to use the advantage.

If your going to Tanzania or Botswana then you can forget buying any ammo of any kind for the most part unless you get real lucky. Your PH is your best bet, find out what he carries and has on hand. Most PHs have some 375, 458 and 416s on hand.

I'd get the Dakota and hope I didn't lose my ammo, and its rare indeed that ammo or guns are lost. Not so rare they come a day or two late.

you can always use the PHs gun, and our camp guns are very good usable firearms, not junk.

One thing I suggest to anyone going to Africa, get over it, live with it, and put your give a shitter in neutral or you will certainly go beserk real quick, go with the flow and make the best out of every bad situation and enjoy your hunt...

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
One thing I suggest to anyone going to Africa, get over it, live with it, and put your give a shitter in neutral or you will certainly go beserk real quick, go with the flow and make the best out of every bad situation and enjoy your hunt...

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Yep. Murphy's law says you won't be able to get whatever it is you need anyway, so might as well take whatever you want.

Trivia: Illegal to handload/reload within Botswana. O.K. to use the handloads from "outside," however.

Wildcats and proprietary cartridges:

You gotta be crazy about something, or life is pretty dull. For some the use of wildcats and proprietary cartridges adds spice to life, just like the hunting hobby does. And there is no denying that some of us can get better performance with our pet cartridge than with the off-the-shelf stuff.

As for me, I don't understand motorcycle craziness nor snake handling religions.

I've told this story before, but here it is one more time:

Back in 1995, I arrived in Tanzania, along with the duffle bag that held my ammunition, but for whatever reason, my rifles remained in London. I had 60 rounds of factory .458 Win. Mag. and 100 rounds of factory .300 Win. Mag. ammunition, but no rifles to fire them in. I was scheduled to travel to the first camp I was to hunt out of the next morning, so I had a serious problem.

Luckily, the owner of the safari company was hunting with had a Sako .300 Win. Mag. and a Model 70 .458 Win. Mag. that he was willing to loan me for the entire 21-day safari. He was low on ammo for these rifles, but I had plenty. Even more luckily, my rifles arrived the next morning, so I had the pleasure of using my own, familiar rifles for my dream safari after all. But if they hadn't arrived, at least I had common ammo that was entirely suitable for use in a couple of sound, solid rifles. It could have worked in reverse as just as easiliy.

If I would have had a duffle full of .280 Ackley and .450 Ackley ammo and my rifles had NOT showed up, I would have been "phucked", pure and simple. I would have spent all that money and traveled to the other side of the world for a 21 day safari only to have screwed myself out of it over a logistical nightmare that I created for myself all for the sake of using theoretical cartridges that wouldn't accomplish one damn thing that standard, avaliable factory cartridges would not have. When the nearest source of resupply is on your loading bench back home, on the other side of ther planet, and you have a $50-$70K safari on the line, you tell me the logic of putting that investment to risk for the sake of using a weird, obscure cartridge! As far as I'm concerned, I'd have to be intellectually-challenged to look at it any other way.

That episode underscored the fact that wildcat or obscure cartridges simply aren't for me, especially when there is NO hunting chore that cannot be carried out just as effectively with standard factory cartridges. The worst kind of fool is the fool who'll willingly go down in flames over a theory, especially when there is serious business on the line at the same time, and I consider safari to be serious business.

Avoidable potential problems SHOULD be avoided from the get-go. And I've yet to be in an African hunting camp that didn't have a smattering of .375 H&H, .30-06, .300 Win., and .458 Win. ammo on hand.

And you can bet that I left ALL of my unused .300 Win. Mag. and .458 Win. Mag. ammo behind when I left for home from that safari...........

AD

Saeed is such a fool for using a .375/404???

No, no, no!!!

Just have a .375 H&H or .375 Wby along for the ride with your oddball, and you got it covered.

Words for the foolhardy or the timid, either one.