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I have started this poll based on the 375 for elephant thread. Please vote and give your justifications / comments "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | ||
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I voted 458, 450 or 470 -- simply because I like big bores and have a 470 capstick and 458WM in addition to a 375 H+H. Nothing wrong with a 375 if that is what you have now. | |||
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Why not a .416?  . | |||
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I voted 450/400 or 404 Jeffery. Go with the 404 Jeffery, easy to carry and shoot seeing as you have not used a DG rifle much. Get a good bolt action which you will probably have a had a lot of experience with and far easier to load for and use if you get into reloading. Plenty of us in NZ have a 404 so can help out with loads etc. Finally there is the tradition of this time honoured cartridge to uphold and make no mistake, it will get the job done as it always has. | |||
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I voted for the 375. You didn't state your experience with the larger calibers and a 375 whilst maybe not the best is certainly adequate (in my admittedly limited experience). If you are comfortable withthe larger calibers a 404/416 maybe. I would certainly recommend a scoped rifle for the buffalo. | |||
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Oh Boy!! Naki is closing in on Africa???  | |||
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Wow! A lot of important factors are unknown and need to be addressed before a good answer can be given, IMHO. 1. Recoil (you got to get past it. If you can't shoot a rifle well, just as well start looking for those proverbial tits on a boar hog.) 2. Cost (rifles for some of the calibers are more pricey than a Remington 798, obviously, and if you can't afford a .500, why even consider one). 3. Do you need a scope? The double calibers can be had with scopes, but that adds more expensive variables and sometimes getting a double to shoot well with both irons and a scope is difficult. 4.How important is multipurpose, i.e., some of the calibers aren't 250 yard wonders. Several of the folks mentioned recoil in the earlier thread. Luckily (or because of lots of practice.... and using a sissy pad if necessary) I'm pretty recoil insensitive. If you're not, the first option (.375 H&H or a Ruger  )would probably help you shoot more accurately (and, not incidently, be a great PG gun, too.)Secondly, price. One can find a perfectly functional (perhaps, used) .375 H&H caliber rifle (or .375 Ruger, new) for $800 on up. The .400's are a bit more expensive (except for the Hawkeye and, now, Howa... or single shots ). I have a .458 Win Mag based on a Mauser action for which I paid less than $1000. Bolt guns in the .500's are at least $2,000, aren't they? And the starting price for doubles in the various calibers you mentioned exceeds $5000 but most folks would think Merkel or K-guns should be the where you begin at $8k on up.Scopes? Another factor is how you will use your rifle. I think that the general opinion here is that to really experience what DG hunting is about, buffalo should be shot within 75 yards, preferably less, and 25 yards on in for elephant. I've found that, even at closer ranges, I really need a scope to see a buffalo well, but for elephant, I wouldn't have one on my rifle. Do you "need" a scope? I sometimes do. A bolt gun makes the option a bit easier (and cheaper) to have both good irons and a scope, but sometimes a double regulates only with one or the other. 4. Multipurpose. A .375 H&H is a really fine PG gun out to 250 yards and is at the bottom of the legal guns for elephant. They are great for PG, good for buffalo and adequete for elephants. A .404 (or .416 Rigby or Ruger) with hand loads can do everything a .375 can do on PG and is very much better on elephant in my feeble mind. A .458 begins to loop some in trajectory (unless you carry two different bullet weights and that provides a whole new list of potentional problems)... and, the .500's just aren't really multi-purpose, I'd venture. So... weighing all the factors for a gun that is good for elephant (which for me, requires claw mounts for QD of the scope and the great pair of irons), that has a great scope for finding the shoulder of a dagga boy in the shadows, that (with reloading a bit) will kill an impala at 250 yards, has much less recoil than a .458 or a .500 (Ouch!)... and does all this for less than a double.. there's a great solution, I believe. When I'm going to hunt just elephant, it most always will be with a double, but on the safaris I'm hunting PG and buffalo, too, here's what I'll be toting. I got Mike Cuypers to do his magic on a .404 Jeffery... ain't it purdy!      I should get it next Tuesday when Mike installs the cross bolts!!! JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Ernest, Your having way too much fun with all you rifles and eles. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Nakihunter, As you can see from the results of your poll most people given your situation agree that the 375 is your best bet. Get one and shoot it a bunch. You might decide you don't even need that plains game rifle. The 375 is very versatile and I just like it more and more. I'm probably going to use mine on elk this fall. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Where do you anticipate hunting your elephant / buffalo (country and anticipated terrain if known)? Elephant bull, or tuskless cow? Time of the year? Are you planning on taking a brain shot on the elephant, or heart/lung? How close will you be getting? Are you intending to use a scope for the buffalo, elephant or both? How much time will you be able to put in beforehand practicing? In the poll results, do you want your data to be qualified by the experience level of the responder? | |||
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i'd like to see a pic of judgeg's rifle with the barrel level. the pics make it look like there is an awful amount of drop in that stock. when you receive it at home judge please post up some pics for us. | |||
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.416 remington rigby exc. put warne qd mounts on it. open sights for buff and ele with 400 grain bullets. 350 tsx for plainsgame with scope. you then only need to take one rifle | |||
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I just went trhough the same process, i shot several 375s and 416s. I could not tell much difference in recoil, and the 416 is enough bigger that I believe it will make a difference. I ended up with a 416 B&M from Michael458 which is some where around a 416 Tayor -416 Rem. As has been mentioned its flat shooting enough for Large plains game and enough for ele. I will prob pair it with a 270WSM for lighter work and have matching rifles as to action and type. SSR | |||
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I have had the pleasure of living my dream and been able to harvest two bull eles. The first with a 458Lott and the second with a double rifle in 450#2 nitro express. I also had the pleasure of hunting in the jess and was inside of 20ft. before we saw the bull standing still, wow what a rush. Positively no scope!!!" Most importantly I want a 40caliber or bigger in my hands if everything goes south. I am a firm believer in being proactive and not reactive. " "Once you've been amongst them there is no such thing as to much gun." by Will!!! Mike | |||
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This is like advising an elderly aunt on which car to buy. The answer is a Honda Accord, but you would never catch me driving one. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Great post Judge! I'm in a similar position to Naki needing a rifle that will cover everything from Brown bear to Buffalo and you taking the time to detail your experience is very valuable to a newbie like me. Best, Amir | |||
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I bought my first double, with the intention of having it for elephant. I'm not a big gun shooter, meaning, I've only really been rifle hunting (used to bowhunt exclusively) for about the past 4 years. Now, I bought a 500 NE, which having spoken to some people who's opinion I respect, plus looking at the cost of ammo...500 was a good choice, plus I got a good price on the gun. I had shot a 470 double once before, and it was definitely an experience. So when my 500 arrived, I was a little worried just because of my inexperience. However, the first time out, I shot it extremely well. Essentially shooting all the shots in the area of a large cantelope. If the sh*t hits the fan, I'll feel more comfortable with that extra barrel loaded. Now I'm not saying I'll be able to hit the ele if he's charging with the 2nd shot...but at least I'll having a loud boomstick that might scare him!  Plus, I think if you talk to anyone who smokes a ele with a double and a bolt, they will tell you, there's just something different about it! | |||
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Most are more experienced than me, but I took 2 bull eles with .375 H&H because I shoot it well and use it on pretty much on everything, including buffalo. I am not recoil sensitive, but I have found myself flinching with my .416 Rem, hence with confidence I use the .375. Have fun experimenting and deciding and anticipating your ele hunt! Best regards, D. Nelson | |||
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I vote for 404J. Recoil at traditional levels, is not much greater than 375, but it hits significantly harder. | |||
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I also vote for the 404J and the reasoned posts by Eagle27 and JudgeG are excellent advise. Von Gruff. | |||
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Nakihunter, Hey you have shot 450-400,470,500 and 600 probably others that I forgot so you should know what you can handle. No you can't have my 450-400!!!!!I might let you use it if I get to go along on the hunt. Sam | |||
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I voted 404J because that's the largest I own, and if I was leaving today that's what I'd use. Caleb | |||
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JudgeG, I agree with the vast majority of your post except that under your multi-purpose segment, you state the .375 is a good plains game rifle out to 250 yards. I've shot deer here in missouri at 267, 312 and 328 yards with 270 grain TSX bullets going 2790 fps. Out to 300 yards, I don't compensate at all and past that, only a tiny bit of holdover is necessary. I think most people who believe the .375 H&H is good out to only 250 yards have not experimented enough with the 270 grain loads. This gun shoots as flat as my .338 Winchester magnum with 225 grain loads. It's a good 325 yard gun easily. I agree that it is "adequate" for elephant but have never hunted them at all. I would, however, prefer something larger, only for elephant. Thanks, jfm | |||
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.375 H&H | |||
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.404 Jeff and the various .416's are the perfect compromise between heavy bullet/knockout capabilities and manageable recoil in my opinion. I have taken 4 elephants in the Zambezi Valley with the .416 Rigby and the .404 Jeffery... Speaking of .404 Js that is a nice one Ernest. I thought you were going to pay your favorite Victoria banker a visit when you were down my way? I am still offering a fine dining experience finished with a superb single-malt and a couple of cigars! On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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REad Peter Flack's advice on his website. He makes a lot of sense. | |||
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The 375 It is all I can handle. Shoot once and shoot well or don't shoot. | |||
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Perhaps the pair in my gun rack: CZ's in 375 H&H and 505 Gibbs. The 375 IS a plains game rifle as well, and the Gibbs... It just IS a 505 Gibbs. Rich | |||
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Sam You let cat out of the bag! Thanks buddy. I was planning on including you on the trip in the hope that I could use the 450/400 and now it is official. I am praying it will be 2013. Sam's 470 booted me so bad that I had a lump on my cheek for a weeks and kept squeezing it all the time. The Chapuis stock just did not fit me. The 600 Jeff pushed me back one step and I missed the milk jug as well. The sweet 450-400 was a real honey to shoot. I nailed both targets - wait for the details - the second was a "charging duiker brain sized" clay target at 25 yards that went up in orange dust! Now here is my decision. if I can get Sam to part with the 450-400 or if he joins the hunt, that will be my choice. Or else I'll try and get the Judge to adopt me so that I can use his 404J! No ..just joking..I have been planning on exactly such a rifle for a few years now - but on a 98 Mauser action . I already have tonnes of info on building such a rifle & Lothar Walther can do the barrel. My 9.3X62 Simson will handle everything including buffalo but I would not feel comfortable with that against an elephant. Thanks to everyone for the great comments. I just wish Winchester would offer the 404J in their new Super grade rifles. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Im with the Marine Corps here. If you had included the 416, any of them, it would have won the poll. I voted for 404 and would load it up to modern potential with North Fork bullets. You might need more range than a 470 gives you. Unless you like early hunts when visability is reduced but thats not maybe the way to start out. You can even take PG with a scoped 416/404 handloads. 2400 fps is fast enough for 200 yard shots and not so much up close that it will screw up a marginal bullet. Advice on scopes is save your money for a 1.1 x 6 Swarovski with either 100 or 130 feet field of view. You will want this for elephant. Factor in the weight of the scope when putting your rifle together since the 30mm tubes are heavy. Andy | |||
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Andy, You say the 470 doesn't give you enough range? How far are you talking about shooting an elephant? 25 yards is a long shot on elephant. If it is wide open country then maybe a little further. The joy of elephant hunting is getting really close!!! Nakihunter, How about a Winchester 70 RUM to build a 404 on? 2013 lets make a plan! I'll back you up with a 500 or 577. You can shoot your 9.3 if you want to. Sam | |||
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The real question for the survey, and the one that invalidates the results, is how many who have voted for the .375 have actually hunted Ele and been amongst them? It's very easy to vote .375 when you have never stalked Ele or have chosen to shoot Ele at 25+ yards. Getting up close and personal is a defining moment and is what leads to the bigger is better philosophy; and rightly so. I voted .458Lott. Would have seriously considered the .416 for the first timer had it been an option. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Recommend +0.4 caliber for peace-of-mind; +0.5 caliber for worst-case-scenarios!  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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My thoughts exacty -------how cum not in the list?? eh?? OMG!-- my bow is "pull-push feed" - how dreadfully embarrasing!!!!! | |||
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I was thinking about running into PG or a 100 yard shot on buffalo. I shot my elephant at nine short paces. That is why I recommended a scope with at least 100 foot field of view. Andy | |||
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At least a 458 lott with a 550 grainer at 2150fps.I would make that my Africa load period and shoot everything within 200yds with it.465H&H says this round nearly penetrated an entire ele from the front. | |||
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Sam Yes let us plan for 2013. I just hope & pray the economy recovers enough. Yes a Win Mod 70 in RUM can be rebarreled to a 404 Jeff. To all others, of course a 416 would be in the same class as a 450/400 or a 404J - 400 grain bullet at 2200 to 2400 fps. The main reason I started this poll was to quantify the conclusion on the 375 H&H for elephant or not. My choice of a 404 bolt or a 450/400 double is purely based on nostalgia for old classic British "Raj" rifles including Mannlicher Schoenauers. Yes I would be happy using a 375 or a 416 if that was all I could get. I am also comfortable shooting the 400s at that velocity. No I have not shot a 416 Rigby & presume it kicks a bit more than a 404J. The final decision will depend on $$$ in hand. Do I spend $3k on a dream bolt rifle or $15k on a nice double or just spend the money on the safari? "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Well it is 2013 now & my dream of an african safari is still on. My shoulder surgery recovery has been great and it is my left shoulder while shoot of the right one. I can carry a gun and mount it with my left arm. A couple of days ago I was in the local gunshop talking to the guys and they offered me a CZ 550 mag kevlar stock in 416 Rigby. If it was a 404J I would have bought it right here. I am now seriously considering the 416 Rigby. I have asked for the rifle to be shipped in for a look. Fingers crossed - still dreaming - and possibly planning as well. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Less dreaming...more hunting! When you finally go, you are going to kick yourself for having waited so long. I did the "dream-for-40+years" thing, and believe me: it has very little to recommend it. You are not going to live forever! I enjoyed buying and selling many hundreds of guns, mostly rifles, over the years, but I could have gone to Africa 20 years earlier if I hadn't spent so much on guns. Stop dithering about ballistics and scopes and bullet weights and classic stocks and...buy the damn gun and go shoot something with it. You're welcome!  | |||
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I agree with Lion hunter, in the midst I felt my .416 was too small let alone the 375. I think the 375 has proved it can kill alot of elephant, however, if things are just right. If things go south and you have a awkward abfle shot for the followup, i will want a 500 my self. That is just m opinion. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting What caliber for a first African / elephant safari?
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