quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
It would be much easier to let them die of old age then shoot them and all this fuss would be done away with.

Except that the likely-hood is less than 20% of wild male lions ever die of old age!! They just don't make it to that point. And 20% might be too high of an estimate to be honest.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

quote:

As for the age guess, I am going to say 5. As Lane points out, a lot if it is based on who/how is doing the aging? From what I've been told via scientists that I trust, the +/- margin or error can run 10 months or so.

The Joke behind this is when we openly admit that factors on "who and how" ages a lion can affect "determined" age and they have the benefit of when it is dead having HD pics from all angles taken , teeth x-rayed , claws inspected, nose photographed, facial scarring inspected etc etc and we still have arguments on the age-so what about the PH that most times sees this cat at last light and has to "age it"

Personally the way i look at the "aging" is it is either a mature or old cat which is a taker or its a young cat that is not a taker. I do not believe that there is a cat hunter out there that can age to the year in the field- sorry I hope I have not started a war amongst the "lion gurus" . I have to say though the spin off on the aging has meant that we are shooting less lions and the quality has improved so I am all for it but to think your PH is going to nail the age every time is not going to be the case.

Recently I did a test that is getting passed amongst the PHs on aging lions- I scored 75% which I think is quite good but it means that if I shoot 4 lions one will not be the age that called it. I do not have the experience of a number of other lion hunters as I have probably averaged a lion for every year that I have hunted so that is 20 plus years but sure I am in a better position then many qualified younger PHs!!

Hence my answer of "old enough"!

OK - I don't get it - if this field aging is so subjective, inaccurate and difficult in a practical sense .... why are hunters defending field aging (with cross-checking by semi-objective procedures), as the primary criteria for which male lions should be hunted? Aren't hunters just making it harder for themselves in the future (if there even is a future).

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
'Based on those pics'...the majority of the criteria point to a 4 year old with the outside chance of a 5.

Agree with Lane

OK Carl...so how old is your Lion?

quote:

OK - I don't get it - if this field aging is so subjective, inaccurate and difficult in a practical sense .... why are hunters defending field aging (with cross-checking by semi-objective procedures), as the primary criteria for which male lions should be hunted? Aren't hunters just making it harder for themselves in the future (if there even is a future).

Hit the nail right on the head.
Truer words have never been spoken.

I will tell you the official age tomorrow. I the meanwhile I have found a few closeups of the scarring on its face, nose and teeth.





Good Hunting

Carl Frederik

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
based on the wear of the teeth and the fact that he obviously hasn't been flossing i'm guessing 6

+1 I'd also say 6 based on what is visible of the teeth.

Just FYI and for learning purposes only...the teeth of this lion are in really good shape with little wear. It looks like the "canine ridge" is still present.

I said 6. What do I win?

7 years old. What do I win?

I guess 7. And since I know absolutely nothing about judging a lions age that should make me an expert....right?

quote:

Originally posted by npd345:
I guess 7. And since I know absolutely nothing about judging a lions age that should make me an expert....right?

ndp345, your posting makes me think of a definition of an AR-Expert on any given subject: Someone who knows absolutely nothing about the subject!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Just FYI and for learning purposes only...the teeth of this lion are in really good shape with little wear. It looks like the "canine ridge" is still present.

There are exceptions to the norm. Photo - Kafue Zambia.

Thank you for all the kind words and good guesses.

The only thing I know about aging a lion I have read here on AR, but to me the lion looks mature but not very old.

The official age done by Parks is between 5 and 6 years

Thank you

Good Hunting

carl Frederik

Lots of Lion Experts on this Forum according to the Poll. Congrats

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:
Thank you for all the kind words and good guesses.

The only thing I know about aging a lion I have read here on AR, but to me the lion looks mature but not very old.

The official age done by Parks is between 5 and 6 years

Thank you

Good Hunting

carl Frederik

I think your assessment is spot on Carl. Not "old", but mature - that's exactly what he looks like, and if the aging given to you is correct - that's exactly what he is. Beautiful lion sir!!!

Frederik! I did not want to chime in as I obviously knew the age- bottom line stunning lion and I hope the few lion hunts we have this season result in similar cats!!!

It is aways difficult to age a dead Lion and sadly death takes away some of the brutish magnificence that these regal beasts exude. The pose is often harshly lit by the camera and much of the mane cannot be seen.

Great call by your PH Mr. Tabor and well done on your fantastic trophy.

No doubt CMS will be putting a sizeable chunk of that income back into protecting other Lion.

Very nice Lion Carl.

Only 26% of respondents predicted correctly.

Various arguments have been put forward outlining their reasoning of their choice in age too.

OK - I don't get it - if this field aging is so subjective, inaccurate and difficult in a practical sense .... why are hunters defending field aging (with cross-checking by semi-objective procedures), as the primary criteria for which male lions should be hunted? Aren't hunters just making it harder for themselves in the future (if there even is a future).

Absolutely right on this. One thing this aging criteria has done is having less inferior lion being shot, and quite possibly letting some older lions continue on for fear of legal repercussions. We all, PH's and Clients, are familiarising ourselves well and ensuring better quality animals are being harvested, and that is the way forward for our beleaguered industry.

We need to ensure we educate ourselves further regarding other animals. My biggest problem is the age that buffalo are being harvested. That needs to be rectified, somehow. Throwing away the word "Trophy" and any record books would certainly help. Bring back the spirit of the adventure.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
Only 26% of respondents predicted correctly.

Various arguments have been put forward outlining their reasoning of their choice in age too.

OK - I don't get it - if this field aging is so subjective, inaccurate and difficult in a practical sense .... why are hunters defending field aging (with cross-checking by semi-objective procedures), as the primary criteria for which male lions should be hunted? Aren't hunters just making it harder for themselves in the future (if there even is a future).

Absolutely right on this. One thing this aging criteria has done is having less inferior lion being shot, and quite possibly letting some older lions continue on for fear of legal repercussions. We all, PH's and Clients, are familiarising ourselves well and ensuring better quality animals are being harvested, and that is the way forward for our beleaguered industry.

We need to ensure we educate ourselves further regarding other animals. My biggest problem is the age that buffalo are being harvested. That needs to be rectified, somehow. Throwing away the word "Trophy" and any record books would certainly help. Bring back the spirit of the adventure.

Indeed Neil but there are some who want to pursue big trophies and better what they already have. Often conducting multiple safaris to reach their goal. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to individuals requirements in hunting.

I apologised to a client once as the buff I picked out in the long grass was a little soft. He had no idea what I was talking about so I did not bother trying to explain. It was his buff and he had earned it.

quote:

Indeed Neil but there are some who want to pursue big trophies and better what they already have. Often conducting multiple safaris to reach their goal. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to individuals requirements in hunting.I apologised to a client once as the buff I picked out in the long grass was a little soft. He had no idea what I was talking about so I did not bother trying to explain. It was his buff and he had earned it.

Therein lies the conundrum, the competitive drive in us to go one better.

Familiarity of one's quarry and what makes him a great "taker" coupled with the adventure of the hunt is what it needs to be about. We've taken the record books to be the "bible" of our search criteria, and for the wrong reasons......"mine's bigger than yours" story. We all shoot youngsters during our career, the old proverbial "shit happens", and it's pointless beating ourselves up over something unintentional.

To me it's that word "TROPHY"......just don't like it.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:

quote:

Indeed Neil but there are some who want to pursue big trophies and better what they already have. Often conducting multiple safaris to reach their goal. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to individuals requirements in hunting.I apologised to a client once as the buff I picked out in the long grass was a little soft. He had no idea what I was talking about so I did not bother trying to explain. It was his buff and he had earned it.

Therein lies the conundrum, the competitive drive in us to go one better.

Familiarity of one's quarry and what makes him a great "taker" coupled with the adventure of the hunt is what it needs to be about. We've taken the record books to be the "bible" of our search criteria, and for the wrong reasons......"mine's bigger than yours" story. We all shoot youngsters during our career, the old proverbial "shit happens", and it's pointless beating ourselves up over something unintentional.

To me it's that word "TROPHY"......just don't like it.

And it will probably be phased out. It was only a few years back when shooting an under age Lion was acceptable.

Robert Ruark perhaps expressed how I fell the best--

When I shoot a trophy--I am not killing him--I am preserving him in my memory till i die. i remember the day, the temperature, the dust-or snow, how tired I was, what the others in the party were talking about--its all preserved in a monument to the trophy.


Its not about tape measures or dick measuring to many of us--but the trophy is still important.

I am another lion expert from up North - so I vote for 6 years old




Morten

Hmmmm ... The answer was given already. How could I miss that ...

I hunted lion with Paul Jelonek and my lion was Paul's 32nd lion of his career. I figured that when he didn't let me shoot a male on day 9 but wanted to hold out for a more mature lion (day 16) that he knew what he was doing. I'll leave it to the PH. I don't know Jack Squat about aging lions and figure most on this site don't either. A so called "lion expert" on this site viewed my lion photo for about 3 seconds and told me that mine was too young! I guess the parks estimate of between 6 and 7 didn't count.

Carl, very nice lion and, from one lion hunter to another, I bet it was one of the hardest hunts you will ever have....but the richest and most rewarding. Congrats to you and Rich.

well done , mature lion , my estimate was more towards 4 based on mouth , nose , mane , colour , mane , scares , condition , mane courseness , but in each region Lions respond to conditions food and genetics differently.

The main point is that ageing lions in the field is extremely difficult , and will differ from country to country , habitat to habitat .

In Botswana we were not allowed to bait , so we had to age them fleeing through the bush or sleeping under a tree in long grass /mopane thicket , safe to say luck had a lot to do with it. we also played into the authorities hands as the Lion report showed lions shot were younger than thought, we thought working with the authorities on Lion and then Leopard restrictions would give us credibility - history shows us that was a croc of poo.

All the issues about lion ageing is really just a way to eventually close lion hunting as mistakes will be made - my last correspondence with pro lion hunting research people such as Colleen and Keith Begg were swaying towards not hunting lion , you have Craig Packer swaying in the wind and only Paula White remaining honest . Add this to corruption , canned lion killing , and a growing anti sentiment - Lion hunting will be a thing of the past sooner than later .

Congrats to Carl ,

NEIL YOU SAY THROW AWAY THE WORD "TROPHY "
A PLUS 100% , THE NEGATIVE BAGGAGE THAT COMES WITH THAT WORD WILL BE THE LAST NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF HUNTING .

We have come to the edge of the cliff of the future of hunting in africa , and as discussed on many other threads , now is the time for change !

Its not cowtailing to the anti's , its not folding under pressure , its not not standing up for what you believe - its about taking hunting forward , its about adapting to change in the global perceptions , its about creating a positive image , its about recovering the SPIRIT of the hunt , its about returning the hunt to be about hunting and not the trophy.

2 Billion people in the world will dictate what we hunt and how we hunt in the future - lets give them the framework so they dont force it on us.

Place hunting in conservation , resource management , food production , outdoors pursuit and family time . BUT drop the trophy image !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
NEIL YOU SAY THROW AWAY THE WORD "TROPHY "
A PLUS 100% , THE NEGATIVE BAGGAGE THAT COMES WITH THAT WORD WILL BE THE LAST NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF HUNTING .

We have come to the edge of the cliff of the future of hunting in africa , and as discussed on many other threads , now is the time for change !

Its not cowtailing to the anti's , its not folding under pressure , its not not standing up for what you believe - its about taking hunting forward , its about adapting to change in the global perceptions , its about creating a positive image , its about recovering the SPIRIT of the hunt , its about returning the hunt to be about hunting and not the trophy.

2 Billion people in the world will dictate what we hunt and how we hunt in the future - lets give them the framework so they dont force it on us.

Place hunting in conservation , resource management , food production , outdoors pursuit and family time . BUT drop the trophy image !!!

+1000!!

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
NEIL YOU SAY THROW AWAY THE WORD "TROPHY "
A PLUS 100% , THE NEGATIVE BAGGAGE THAT COMES WITH THAT WORD WILL BE THE LAST NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF HUNTING .

We have come to the edge of the cliff of the future of hunting in africa , and as discussed on many other threads , now is the time for change !

Its not cowtailing to the anti's , its not folding under pressure , its not not standing up for what you believe - its about taking hunting forward , its about adapting to change in the global perceptions , its about creating a positive image , its about recovering the SPIRIT of the hunt , its about returning the hunt to be about hunting and not the trophy.

2 Billion people in the world will dictate what we hunt and how we hunt in the future - lets give them the framework so they dont force it on us.

Place hunting in conservation , resource management , food production , outdoors pursuit and family time . BUT drop the trophy image !!!

Will you be the first to stop using the word trophy?

I think getting rid of the term trophy is a bit foolish. It is what it is. The guys in Zim know how important getting a visible part of the animal back is, otherwise the whole USFWS thing about elephant would not be an issue.

Are some folks hypercompetitive about their hunting? I think so, but on the other hand if we remove the trophy portion, you will see a lot less hunters. Getting rid of trophies because of the bad behavior of a small subset seems every bit as foolish as the antis.

Bringing anything back is due to it being a trophy, legally.

Unless you want no taxidermy or horns whatsoever, in which case the wildlife will lose a considerable amount of value. Good luck on getting the average Hunter to spend 6 figures on a lion hunt without a trophy.

What we are seeing is not the hunters issues, we are seeing, in my opinion, a combination of greed on the part of the industry (if quotas were lower, the age part would not be as much an issue) and the attempts to appease the more rational part of the anti crowd to say that the only thing we are shooting is past breeding animals...ie, the very old. Frankly, you will not convince the true antis. The convincable are more interested in lack of waste and sustainability than if you put a head on the wall.

Either sustainable use is a reasonable thing to do, or we should stop doing it.

While I can appreciate the desire to appear more publically friendly (PC) to avoid unnecessary fights, at some point we need to stand up and just say what needs to be said, namely, photo tourism will not provide the income or the habitat to save the game in any country.

Most of what I see here is more the issue with a definition of what a trophy is, not whether or not a trophy should be taken or an issue with having a trophy. Unfortunately, a trophy is purely in the eyes of that Hunter, so what we all say will ultimately have little effect other than it would influence the book Hunter if he still can get his ranking by requiring age instead of by dimensions.

And given that we can see a number of us being off on this photo set, how would one determine those criteria?

Well said crbutler - platitudes about changing the terminology and focus of a whole international industry are worthless. Let's just get on with the business of spreading the truth; about the good conservation work of the hunting industry - not try to hide behind politically correct skirts.

(1) Well done on a great looking lion
(2) I go with Buzz's answer

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Just FYI and for learning purposes only...the teeth of this lion are in really good shape with little wear. It looks like the "canine ridge" is still present.

Live an learn.thanks ledvm

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
NEIL YOU SAY THROW AWAY THE WORD "TROPHY "
A PLUS 100% , THE NEGATIVE BAGGAGE THAT COMES WITH THAT WORD WILL BE THE LAST NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF HUNTING .

We have come to the edge of the cliff of the future of hunting in africa , and as discussed on many other threads , now is the time for change !

Its not cowtailing to the anti's , its not folding under pressure , its not not standing up for what you believe - its about taking hunting forward , its about adapting to change in the global perceptions , its about creating a positive image , its about recovering the SPIRIT of the hunt , its about returning the hunt to be about hunting and not the trophy.

2 Billion people in the world will dictate what we hunt and how we hunt in the future - lets give them the framework so they dont force it on us.

Place hunting in conservation , resource management , food production , outdoors pursuit and family time . BUT drop the trophy image !!!

+1
It is not the antis we must worry about, we need to convince the general public and make it impossible for the anti's to spread their lies to the general public.

People, read the general public, do not understand that for us as hunters a trophy means a memory, refer to the quote of Sean Russel, which is very true.

We have lots of PR work to do.