Hi<BR>As most of you know lions hunted in Tanzania and Zimbabwe must be of a minimum age when shoot. If not the outfitter will be sanctioned with loss of quota etc. In Zimbabwe the minimum age is 5 years. I have just got the official age of my lion that I took with CMS in October. <a href="https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6321043/m/9581082512" target="_blank">http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/9581082512</a><BR><BR> I understand the age is based on photos of the lion, X-rays of the scull and one of the teeth.<BR><BR>Under are pictures of the lion. Let me hear what you guys think the age is. I will post the answer in a few days.<BR><BR><a href="http://s1018.photobucket.com/user/nagell/media/_MG_0962_zpsi7tgle9c.jpg.html" target="_blank"><IMG class="inline_image" SRC="http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af301/nagell/_MG_0962_zpsi7tgle9c.jpg"> </a><BR><BR><a href="http://s1018.photobucket.com/user/nagell/media/2015-10-13%2017.51.25_zpsxydphmej.jpg.html" target="_blank"><IMG class="inline_image" SRC="http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af301/nagell/2015-10-13%2017.51.25_zpsxydphmej.jpg"> </a><BR><BR><a href="http://s1018.photobucket.com/user/nagell/media/EK000026_zpssqmejcg5.jpg.html" target="_blank"><IMG class="inline_image" SRC="http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af301/nagell/EK000026_zpssqmejcg5.jpg"> </a><BR><BR><a href="http://s1018.photobucket.com/user/nagell/media/2015-10-13%2018.28.04_zpsbhxoexls.jpg.html" target="_blank"><IMG class="inline_image" SRC="http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af301/nagell/2015-10-13%2018.28.04_zpsbhxoexls.jpg"> </a><BR><BR><BR>Good Hunting<BR>Carl FrederikHow old is this lion?2 years or less3 years4 years5 years6 years7 years8 years or older

Hi Carl,

At a rough guess I would have called that around 6. Not much facial scaring. Awesome Lion though.

5?

'Based on those pics'...the majority of the criteria point to a 4 year old with the outside chance of a 5.

I am no way a good judge of lion age, but it seems most are going on the lower end, so I am going to be contrary and say 7.

The valley is known for its lions with less mane than usual.

He's not 13 like CECIL.
As Andrew points out not much facial scaring but the teeth show some wear.
SO . . . I would have given him a green light at roughly 5/6 yrs.
In my overall opinion, a very nice valley lion.

Haven't a clue, but a beautiful trophy. CONGRATULATIONS!

BH63

I said 5 based on the mane distribution, nose color and wear of his teeth.

I would not be surprised to hear I am off by a year, but that is a good looking lion.

Note nose colour is regional and not an age indicator. I am led to believe.

based on the wear of the teeth and the fact that he obviously hasn't been flossing i'm guessing 6

I would hazard a guess at no more than 5.

I have watched quite a number of lions, with several PHs, and no one seems to agree on the age of these lions.

WTF? Can't y'all see his growth rings?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I would hazard a guess at no more than 5.

I have watched quite a number of lions, with several PHs, and no one seems to agree on the age of these lions.

A lot has to do with regional genes, Lion densities, climate etc. If this is a valley Lion then it is a good one.

Beautiful lion and great post.

Karl,

Beautiful lion regardless of his age. Congratulations TO YOU.

Mark

CF what was the measurement of the skull ?

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
CF what was the measurement of the skull ?

Anton

Not super big; 24

Good Hunting

CF

Interesting brain teaser. My wife and I voted before we read any of the comments. I voted 6 and my wife voted 5. I have no professional experience and have taken only one Lion, but based solely on my reading, and looking at his face, nose and teeth, I selected 6. Andrew said the nose color is regional, so there goes that theory. Watch, he'll end up being 10!

Can't be 10 as it wasn't an option.

I have no idea who is doing the "official" aging in Zim. That said...I have had the chance to x-ray the 2nd upper premolar on quite a few zim lions and examine their skull in the process (I offer this free to anyone who wants it done).

Rarely do my pulp-cavity widths (measured in the 2nd upper pre-molar - small first upper cheek tooth) match what was reported. So their is no telling what the Zim guys actually called it.

A 24"+ skull is fairly normal, I would say 24.5" is the average I've seen. Largest I've killed personally was 26 3/4", also from Zim.

As for the age guess, I am going to say 5. As Lane points out, a lot if it is based on who/how is doing the aging? From what I've been told via scientists that I trust, the +/- margin of error can run 10 months or so.

Regardless, he does look to be a "mature" lion - very nice and congrats!!!

Beautiful cat, no matter. I guessed 5, but did note that his spine is showing a good bit.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
'Based on those pics'...the majority of the criteria point to a 4 year old with the outside chance of a 5.

CMS has a problem then?

Once took a Lion when Thor Kirchner was my apprentice and he thought the Lion was not of age. We looked it over for three days and I called it in. Just so happened to be one of the oldest taken that year. No facial scars, pinkish nose and the mane was not very good for the Kafue.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
'Based on those pics'...the majority of the criteria point to a 4 year old with the outside chance of a 5.

CMS has a problem then?

Once took a Lion when Thor Kirchner was my apprentice and he thought the Lion was not of age. We looked it over for three days and I called it in. Just so happened to be one of the oldest taken that year. No facial scars, pinkish nose and the mane was not very good for the Kafue.

Andrew - That's why its science, but not an exact science!! I've seen lions all over the board, and different areas dictate different characteristics, etc. But your example is a good one. Normally the old/mature Kafue lions carry very good manes, so he was obviously not the norm - which is more likely the norm. I've seen plenty of male lions in the Kafue with you and Richard, not one of them looked like the other!!

Great cat in my book
How about counting rings on his foreskin?
Anyone ever tried?

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Great cat in my book
How about counting rings on his foreskin?
Anyone ever tried?

I only do that while they're alive to verify age before shooting.

I voted before I read the comments from the experts. I said 5. I look forward to hearing the results.

Carl,
Please let me say congrats on your lion. I just want you to know my comments are genuine on the science side but my comments are also genuine from hunter to hunter when I say...well done!

I'll say 6...

Old enough!

Curious, what did your PH judge him at before you took him?

Congrats & well done!

Best regards, D. Nelson

quote:

Originally posted by D. Nelson:
Curious, what did your PH judge him at before you took him?

Congrats & well done!

Best regards, D. Nelson

My PH was Rich Tabor. We had quite a lot of trail camera pictures and video of him. And we had a good sighting of him in day time a few days before we got him.

Rich was very confident that he was legal, but I could not get him to say more than that he was 5 +.

Good Hunting
Carl Frederik

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

quote:

Originally posted by D. Nelson:
Curious, what did your PH judge him at before you took him?

Congrats & well done!

Best regards, D. Nelson

My PH was Rich Tabor. We had quite a lot of trail camera pictures and video of him. And we had a good sighting of him in day time a few days before we got him.

Rich was very confident that he was legal, but I could not get him to say more than that he was 5 +.

Good Hunting
Carl Frederik

Good assessment.

quote:

As for the age guess, I am going to say 5. As Lane points out, a lot if it is based on who/how is doing the aging? From what I've been told via scientists that I trust, the +/- margin or error can run 10 months or so.

The Joke behind this is when we openly admit that factors on "who and how" ages a lion can affect "determined" age and they have the benefit of when it is dead having HD pics from all angles taken , teeth x-rayed , claws inspected, nose photographed, facial scarring inspected etc etc and we still have arguments on the age-so what about the PH that most times sees this cat at last light and has to "age it"

Personally the way i look at the "aging" is it is either a mature or old cat which is a taker or its a young cat that is not a taker. I do not believe that there is a cat hunter out there that can age to the year in the field- sorry I hope I have not started a war amongst the "lion gurus" . I have to say though the spin off on the aging has meant that we are shooting less lions and the quality has improved so I am all for it but to think your PH is going to nail the age every time is not going to be the case.

Recently I did a test that is getting passed amongst the PHs on aging lions- I scored 75% which I think is quite good but it means that if I shoot 4 lions one will not be the age that called it. I do not have the experience of a number of other lion hunters as I have probably averaged a lion for every year that I have hunted so that is 20 plus years but sure I am in a better position then many qualified younger PHs!!

With you on this Buzz , based on photos I put it closer to 4 than 5 , but in the field under field conditions , who knows.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

quote:

As for the age guess, I am going to say 5. As Lane points out, a lot if it is based on who/how is doing the aging? From what I've been told via scientists that I trust, the +/- margin or error can run 10 months or so.

The Joke behind this is when we openly admit that factors on "who and how" ages a lion can affect "determined" age and they have the benefit of when it is dead having HD pics from all angles taken , teeth x-rayed , claws inspected, nose photographed, facial scarring inspected etc etc and we still have arguments on the age-so what about the PH that most times sees this cat at last light and has to "age it"

Personally the way i look at the "aging" is it is either a mature or old cat which is a taker or its a young cat that is not a taker. I do not believe that there is a cat hunter out there that can age to the year in the field- sorry I hope I have not started a war amongst the "lion gurus" . I have to say though the spin off on the aging has meant that we are shooting less lions and the quality has improved so I am all for it but to think your PH is going to nail the age every time is not going to be the case.

Recently I did a test that is getting passed amongst the PHs on aging lions- I scored 75% which I think is quite good but it means that if I shoot 4 lions one will not be the age that called it. I do not have the experience of a number of other lion hunters as I have probably averaged a lion for every year that I have hunted so that is 20 plus years but sure I am in a better position then many qualified younger PHs!!

Very true Buzz.

This photo shows what seems to be an older Lion in poor light and often a PH has to make a quick decision in the gathering gloom. In fact this cat turned out to be much younger than he looked and guessed about 3 or 4.



When there is a lot of money on the table the pressures to please a client can be immense and can lead to irrational decisions.

That is a beautiful valley cat and you should be proud! As of age, I will guess around 5

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

quote:

As for the age guess, I am going to say 5. As Lane points out, a lot if it is based on who/how is doing the aging? From what I've been told via scientists that I trust, the +/- margin or error can run 10 months or so.

The Joke behind this is when we openly admit that factors on "who and how" ages a lion can affect "determined" age and they have the benefit of when it is dead having HD pics from all angles taken , teeth x-rayed , claws inspected, nose photographed, facial scarring inspected etc etc and we still have arguments on the age-so what about the PH that most times sees this cat at last light and has to "age it"

Personally the way i look at the "aging" is it is either a mature or old cat which is a taker or its a young cat that is not a taker. I do not believe that there is a cat hunter out there that can age to the year in the field- sorry I hope I have not started a war amongst the "lion gurus" . I have to say though the spin off on the aging has meant that we are shooting less lions and the quality has improved so I am all for it but to think your PH is going to nail the age every time is not going to be the case.

Recently I did a test that is getting passed amongst the PHs on aging lions- I scored 75% which I think is quite good but it means that if I shoot 4 lions one will not be the age that called it. I do not have the experience of a number of other lion hunters as I have probably averaged a lion for every year that I have hunted so that is 20 plus years but sure I am in a better position then many qualified younger PHs!!

Buzz, I think your assessments are pretty accurate! Aging a lion on the "paw" is pretty tough, but as you say, I don't think its that tough to assess what most would call a "mature" lion, from an "immature" lion. Past that, its gut feeling and educated guessing.

Speaking of tests, the guys at Panthera sent me one a couple years ago to test my skills at aging / identifying leopards - that was hard!

Well I know pee all about lions other than what I have read and that I would like to kill one.

I guessed 7. Probably out to lunch, but looking at his head, backline and teeth, that is my uneducated guess. LOL

It would be much easier to let them die of old age then shoot them and all this fuss would be done away with.