quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
He actually has less experience than he'd like you to believe.

On Africa hunting I think he has more experience of all people on this thread combined...JMO.

Although he always looking for a discussion

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

I've hunted a lot in my time (probably more than a lot of folk on this forum) and I've certainly got nothing to lose from any ban.

To hell with the animals and future generations of hunters eh - so long as you are OK...

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I would recommend my hunting clients do go and buy a nice double rifle and do get some proper training and practice and do come hunting with it.

I think the proper training and practice part is what puts off many PH's and I'm sure that's where Rusty's comments are coming from. I've seen guys fiddling with a double they're not familiar with and frankly it's scary.

I'd love to have one or two or three doubles because I just love guns but when I compare the purchase price for a double to the trophy fees for the animals I still want to hunt I just can't justify it. AND I just can't get my head around a guy that comes to me wanting to buy the least expensive hunt he can but tells me he has just bought a double. Sorry! I just don't get it.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I would recommend my hunting clients do go and buy a nice double rifle and do get some proper training and practice and do come hunting with it.

I think the proper training and practice part is what puts off many PH's and I'm sure that's where Rusty's comments are coming from. I've seen guys fiddling with a double they're not familiar with and frankly it's scary.

I'd love to have one or two or three doubles because I just love guns but when I compare the purchase price for a double to the trophy fees for the animals I still want to hunt I just can't justify it. AND I just can't get my head around a guy that comes to me wanting to buy the least expensive hunt he can but tells me he has just bought a double. Sorry! I just don't get it.

Mark

C'mon now, it's using a double rifle, not flying the space shuttle.

If folks aren't famliarizing themselves and practicing with their rifles (double, bolt, or single shot) prior to undertaking a safari, it is irresponsible and just plain ignorant.

A double rifle is clearly a better investment for a return of your money (compared to trophy fees), so obviously this is pretty easy to get if you're only looking at the money angle. But Trophy fees are sentimental investments in memories and adventure, so it's just apples to oranges ....

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I would recommend my hunting clients do go and buy a nice double rifle and do get some proper training and practice and do come hunting with it.

I think the proper training and practice part is what puts off many PH's and I'm sure that's where Rusty's comments are coming from. I've seen guys fiddling with a double they're not familiar with and frankly it's scary.

I'd love to have one or two or three doubles because I just love guns but when I compare the purchase price for a double to the trophy fees for the animals I still want to hunt I just can't justify it. AND I just can't get my head around a guy that comes to me wanting to buy the least expensive hunt he can but tells me he has just bought a double. Sorry! I just don't get it.

Mark

oh yes of course, we all need training and practice with all our arms.

I have seen hunters with bolt action rifles who didn't know how to load the magazine properly. I once guided a hunter, veteran of half a dozen African safaris who had never close stalked an animal before. Every PH or guide would have a thousand stories

Everyone must be familiar with their gear, train properly and practice often! Hone your own hunting skills, don't rely on your PH to get it done. Don't take shots that are beyond your capabilities.

Why buy a double when I know a guy in Australia who I am sure would let me use his to hunt water buff. Especially since he won it in a raffle. I know he would be thrilled to get someone else hooked.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
Why buy a double when I know a guy in Australia who I am sure would let me use his to hunt water buff. Especially since he won it in a raffle. I know he would be thrilled to get someone else hooked.

the gun I would loan you Mike ( the Verney Carron) - I did not win in any raffle .

To all AR members taking an interest on my comment about Double Rifles. I would like to make it clear the only reason I do not advocate the use of a Double for a general hunting client is simply because generally the shots that are taken on a modern day safri are a lot more difficult than they used to be 30 years ago.

Game including Elephant and Buffalo are 10 times more skittish than they used to be, and often a chance would be lost simply because of the restrictions surrounding a double. I would like to think that effective range of a double is about 50 to 75 yards, after that you really cannot rely on pin point accuracy. This does not mean than shots in excess of that distance have not been taken with success, but it is not to be recommended.

There are many people clients and Professional Hunters who love to use doubles and I am their biggest fan, I just would hate for someone to line up on a 45" Buffalo and not be able to secure a shot because it was just out of effective range, or the bush was to thick to pick your way through it for a killing shot.

Having said all of that there are many hunting clients who are excellent marksman and very proficent with a double and should they accept the challenges surrounding the use of a double for day to day use on a safari, bring one,they are always a pleasure to use.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

I think the proper training and practice part is what puts off many PH's and I'm sure that's where Rusty's comments are coming from. I've seen guys fiddling with a double they're not familiar with and frankly it's scary.

Mark

Mark I think you are right in your assessment of Russ’s statements on this subject! However I doubt he or you have seen more clients who seem unfamiliar with a double rifle than the those unfamiliar with their big bore bolt rifles. By the simple fact that there will be three or four times as many bolt rifle shooters who come on safari with bolt rifles much larger chambered than they are used to.

With most double rifle shooters, unless the rifle is absolutely new, the owner is far more likely to be familiar with it’s recoil and accuracy simply because he is interested enough with the double rifle concept that he simply can’t wait for every chance he gets to shoot it at targets, and especially to hunt with it.

I personally hunted everything from jack rabbit to Moose with double rifles for 20 years before I ventured to Africa. Even so, Russ would be correct about me as well if I were shooting one of the ultra big bore doubles above 500NE. The 500NE double is about the largest double I can shoot with precise bullet placement. I’ve owned a couple of 577NE doubles over the years and I find them too heavy to carry all day and not easy to place shots at anything over 50 yds. My double rifles range from 8X57JR to 470NE in cartridge rifles, and from 36 cal to 58 cal with muzzle loader doubles, and I can shoot them all as well as any iron sighted rifle.

I’m sure there are people who simply buy a new double rifle for a first buffalo or elephant safari, and shoot only a box of factory ammo through it before arriving in camp, but I think there would be a far larger number of bolt rifle hunter who buy something like a 460 Wby Mag rifle right before going to Africa, when the largest thing they have hunted with is a scoped 30-06. As I said earlier when a guy shows up in camp with a shiny new Weatherby 460Mag on his first safari, the PH needs to watch this guy very closely.

Conversely when a guy comes to camp with a well used double rifle it still could be new to him, but the sight check at the camp target will tell the PH very quickly if he is used to the double. Most guys who are interested in double rifles are usually a guy who has some experience with big bore rifles of some type, and will not be recoil shy in most cases.

Russ is right, I think, to watch a new to him client’s gun handling especially if the client is on his first African safari, that is just part of his job as a PH, but as experienced a Russ is, he will spot a poor gun handler who is in over his head very quickly. The fix here is to have a workable bolt rifle in camp in something like 375H&H to lease to him if he needs to.

In the final analysis it is the gun handler, not the type gun that is the problem! More than the type it is the recoil of very large bore, with a client who in not used to heavy recoil, not the type of rifle.
..................................................................................................

So gentlemen, what I’m saying is, it makes little difference what you say or how you say it the anti will find a way to distort the meaning, so quit worrying about the dumb-assed antis and quit down grading other hunters for a couple of words in their posts that simply do nothing to harm hunting. One hunter down grading another hunter does far more harm.

amen brother

quote:

Originally posted by degoins:
So gentlemen, what I’m saying is, it makes little difference what you say or how you say it the anti will find a way to distort the meaning, so quit worrying about the dumb-assed antis and quit down grading other hunters for a couple of words in their posts that simply do nothing to harm hunting. One hunter down grading another hunter does far more harm.

amen brother

Agree totally!!!

Mac: what is your effective accurate range using one of your regular doubles, say the 470? How far out will you be poking that 45" buffalo?

I just shot a Cape buffalo at 75 yards offhand using my 470 Double with iron sights. It never took a step.

I have no desire to shoot a buffalo much further than that, no matter what rifle I am using or if it is a 45" or 36".

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by degoins:
So gentlemen, what I’m saying is, it makes little difference what you say or how you say it the anti will find a way to distort the meaning, so quit worrying about the dumb-assed antis and quit down grading other hunters for a couple of words in their posts that simply do nothing to harm hunting. One hunter down grading another hunter does far more harm.

amen brother

Agree totally!!!

Mac: what is your effective accurate range using one of your regular doubles, say the 470? How far out will you be poking that 45" buffalo?

Matt With a good rest I could place a shot from my 470NE Merkel 140-2 safari in the heart lung area on a buffalo out to about 200 yds, and from a standing un-rested moving accross out to 100yds or a little farther. I regularly make one shot kills on standing 250 pound wild boar with that rifle out to 175 to 200 yds. Running shots of large boar make double taps on two hogs out to about 50 yds.
My 470NE double is fitted with a 50 yard standing rear blade, and a 100 yd flip-up irons. My 9.3X74R Merkel has taken midium size pigs out to 200yds as well on standing animals. smaller animals like impala or mule deer with the 470NE I will pass at about 100 yds. with the 9.3 I'll pop him out to 150 yds with a good rest.


All this is a mute point however because Like Todd I have zero interest in shooting an un wounded buffalo at any thing over about 30 to 40 yds. Dangerous game is simply not dangerous at 200 yds so what is the point, and that has nothing to do with the type of rifle I'm shooting. As far as I'm personally concerned anyone who shoots a 45" buffalo at two hundred yds is cheating himself out of a true dangerous game hunt, for nothing more than a tape measure bragging point. I would rather have a 35" buffalo at 2o yds than a 45" buff at 200yds with any rifle. Now if already wounded and escaping, he will get a hot bullet in the seat of his pants till he is either down, or out of sight with double or bolt scoped or irons.

IMO, too many people do more hunting with a tape measure in their minds, and forget seeing how close they can get without spooking the target. The fact is the longer shots on standing animaqls are only when lasered disatnces so you can knock off about 45 yds if the range is a guess, and the number of hits would drop as well.

The above is only my opinion, and not a required map for others to follow! I say let them hunt the way they enjoy, and I'll do the same.

.................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


Matt With a good rest I could place a shot from my 470NE Merkel 140-2 safari in the heart lung area on a buffalo out to about 200 yds, and from a standing un-rested moving accross out to 100yds or a little farther. I regularly make one shot kills on standing 250 pound wild boar with that rifle out to 175 to 200 yds. Running shots of large boar make double taps on two hogs out to about 50 yds.
My 470NE double is fitted with a 50 yard standing real blade, and a 100 yd flip-up irons. My 9.3X74R Merkel has taken midium size pigs out to 200yds as well on standing animals. smaller animals like impala or mule deer with the 470NE I will pass at about 100 yds. with the 9.3 I'll pop him out to 150 yds with a good rest.


All this is a mute point however because Like Todd I have zero interest in shooting an un wounded buffalo at any thing over about 30 to 40 yds. Dangerous game is simply not dangerous at 200 yds so what is the point, and that has nothing to do with the type of rifle I'm shooting. As far as I'm personally concerned anyone who shoots a 45" buffalo at two hundred yds is cheating himself out of a true dangerous game hunt, for nothing more than a tape measure bragging point. I would rather have a 35" buffalo at 2o yds than a 45" buff at 200yds with any rifle. Now if already wounded and escaping, he will get a hot bullet in the seat of his pants till he is either down, or out of sight with double or bolt scoped or irons.

IMO, too many people do more hunting with a tape measure in their minds, and forget seeing how close they can get without spooking the target.

The above is only my opinion, and not a required map for others to follow! I say let them hunt the way they enjoy, and I'll do the same.

.................................................................................

Yeah I agree totally... obviously you practice out to 150yds and beyond and that makes the 50-100m shots considerably easier too.

At the pointy end of it - close stalking is what it's all about I reckon... get in close and make a good first shot.

What shocks me are the number of PH's and guides I meet who are not hunters themselves (true!!)... little wonder they have no interest or possibly no ability to stalk close andd to help the client to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ B:

Game including Elephant and Buffalo are 10 times more skittish than they used to be, and often a chance would be lost simply because of the restrictions surrounding a double. I would like to think that effective range of a double is about 50 to 75 yards, after that you really cannot rely on pin point accuracy.

Damn, I said to myself that I was finished with this thread but I guess not.

1) If the chance on an elephant is lost because we can't close to less than 50 to 75 yards, then I don't think there was a chance missed in the first place.

2) I think the warthog video proves that pin point accuracy can be achieved beyond 50 to 75 yards with a double. You might need a scope but just take a look over at the double rifle segment of this forum to see how many guys are mounting scopes and red dot sights on their doubles now days. Even ghost rings are becoming popular.

For anyone who insists on shooting Dangerous Game at non-dangerous distances, but still want to use a double, just put a scope on it! It will perform well under those conditions as long as you match the load to the gun. Trust me, there is nothing special about my shooting as I consider myself to be an average shot. The shot on that warthog video clip was the result of a properly set up double rifle / load combo. I'd be willing to bet that 9 out of 10 guys on this forum could make that same shot with that rifle.

As far as proficiency with a double's operation, how much simpler can a rifle be? Pull one trigger, then another if needed, open it, put 2 new shells in, close it, and repeat. No worrying about the bolt binding, feed issues, short stroking the bolt, bolt not picking up a round because the mag was loaded incorrectly, etc. It really isn't rocket science. They really are pretty simple to operate, ONCE YOU MATCH THE LOAD TO THE RIFLE! And IMO, that is the only real complicated thing about a double (building, repairing, and servicing them notwithstanding ) .

Cheers!

Matt I just thought of something I meant to add but forgot! I went back ad edited my post in RED about a difference in the ranges with and without a laser range finder!

The problems with doubles are:

1: Two barrels
2: only two rounds
3: too heavy
4: too expensive
5: too limited in range
6: too limited in cartridge choice
7: too limited in bullet weight
8: too fragile
9: too hard to scope


thats enough 2's

This all makes for interesting discussion.

I agree shots can and have been made with doubles at long range, I once hit a wounded Buffalo running and dropped him at 250 yards, but the point is this is not recommended practice. Most modern doubles shoot a reasonable grouping at 100 yards, my old Army Navy 470 groups close together at 50 yards, but it starts to go about 5" apart at 100 and gets worse from there on. So I prefer unless in absolute emergency's to not take a shot at anything over 75 yards. That being said I probably do not fire more than 5 rounds in an entire season, I try by all means to only shoot if something is right on top of us and we about to get chewed.

I have no objection to any of my clients bringing doubles on safari, and like everyone says just get a little closer. I think the bottom line is you should use the rifle you shoot best with. I have had a lady who has done 6 30 day hunts with me and has used her 375 Double with a scope exclusively, with great success.

More often than not, Buffalo and Elephant are shot in very thick cover at close range and whilst iron sites are fine a scope often helps picking your way through the many branches and sticks that you might not see using iron sites.

Doubles present challenges that some people welcolme, and cope with well. I can say though that there is nothing more re assuring than have a double for wounded dangerous game, esp; in close quarters.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

......I'd love to have one or two or three doubles because I just love guns but when I compare the purchase price for a double to the trophy fees for the animals I still want to hunt I just can't justify it. AND I just can't get my head around a guy that comes to me wanting to buy the least expensive hunt he can but tells me he has just bought a double. Sorry! I just don't get it.

Mark

Some folks would sell every rifle in their safe for another hunt, and others would skip an elephant hunt to own a Heym DR.

Rifle nuts and hunting nuts are not one in the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
The problems with doubles are:

1: Two barrels
2: only two rounds
3: too heavy
4: too expensive
5: too limited in range
6: too limited in cartridge choice
7: too limited in bullet weight
8: too fragile
9: too hard to scope


thats enough 2's

............and every one of those "2s" are wrong except 1 and 4!

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

......I'd love to have one or two or three doubles because I just love guns but when I compare the purchase price for a double to the trophy fees for the animals I still want to hunt I just can't justify it. AND I just can't get my head around a guy that comes to me wanting to buy the least expensive hunt he can but tells me he has just bought a double. Sorry! I just don't get it.

Mark

Some folks would sell every rifle in their safe for another hunt, and others would skip an elephant hunt to own a Heym DR.

Rifle nuts and hunting nuts are not one in the same.

I know dozens of hunters, myself included ... who are both.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

And, what do they have in common? Keep a rifle and a woman around long enough and you will want to shoot both.

Cal

Aint that the truth, Cal!

You guys are killing me. If using your double enhances your safari experience please do so. I'm not trying too tell you not to do that. My objection is that some safari newbies have the mistaken believe that their safari will somehow not be complete unless they use a double. Problem here is that most modern hunters have been weaned on a scoped bolt action and now they have an open sighted rifle they're not familiar with. I don't care what anybody says a guy can be fairly competent with a scoped rifle with little practice. A double rifle and little practice could equal a disaster.

Look! I know the primary posters on this thread are competent double rifle shooters that do practice. You are not the guys that make Ph's nervous. When Craig Boddington wrote his book on safari rifles and polled a group of PH's on what rifles they wanted to see their clients show up in camp with a scoped bolt action 375 was on the the top of the list. Why do you think that was? Because AVERAGE guys shoot one pretty well.

Personally I have about twenty long guns that I've acquired over the years but the purchase of none of them has diminished my ability to book a hunt. The purchase of a double would absolutely kill my safari plans for '14. No gun is worth sacrificing even one day in Africa for. A guy that does not have enough money to buy the double and do the safari he wants too is severely cheating himself by buying the double in place of the safari.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
My double loves to be caressed.

Mike

They're so pretty, you know they have to be expensive ... Wish I could afford one.

quote:

Originally posted by z375:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

And, what do they have in common? Keep a rifle and a woman around long enough and you will want to shoot both.

Cal

Aint that the truth, Cal!

A good friend of mine told me an old auto mechanic saying:

"If it's got t*ts or wheels it goin to cause you trouble"

That being said my wife is lovely and very low maintenance, can't say that for myself lol