Althoough i am a fan of a double and have carried nothing else for 30 years they do have their limitations, and I really would not advocate them for use by hunting clients,

On the other hand for follow up work as a PH there is nothing better. Most Lion charges take place at a range of 15 to 30 yards and there is almost no one that can crank a bolt quick enough for a second shot, whereas a double gives the little bit of extra comfort knowing you have a second shot.

as one of the previous writers put it a little oil and a bit of attention is the only maintenence needed.

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
Here is a quote from Pierre Van der Walt's book entitled "African Dangerous Game Cartridges"

Page 11:

"A double rifle is a high maintenance mistress. Hell hath no fury like a women scorned, and if either the rather costly maintenance or diet of the double is scorned, that hellish fury will be visited upon you."


I think that I will stick with the bolt action....and keep the mistress!


dale

Typical of a publishing pimp. Just make up some shit to sell books.

But more pathetic is that guys believe it.

Double rifles are expensive to purchase and the ammo does not come cheap. Other than that, all this nonsense of regular maintenance, etc. is rubbish.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ B:
Althoough i am a fan of a double and have carried nothing else for 30 years they do have their limitations, and I really would not advocate them for use by hunting clients ,

WOW! I'm not sure if this emoticon is more appropriate: or if this one is better:

And yes, I know who Russ Broom is. That statement just seems to paint client hunters with a broad brush.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:


Typical of a publishing pimp. Just make up some shit to sell books.

.

Oh boy! Having recently obtained a copy of "Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" by one, William E. Stewart, Jr, I am wondering how much shit I am going to have wade through?

The only problem I see with a DR is I would probably have to forego a hunt or two in order to pay for one.

Would love to have one someday, we'll see....

You have to look at owning a double as an investment. It is most likely top go up in value or at least maintain its value. Seldom do they go down. I look at mine as a 401-K that isn't taxed!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
You have to look at owning a double as an investment. It is most likely top go up in value or at least maintain its value. Seldom do they go down. I look at mine as a 401-K that isn't taxed!

465H&H

Damn, I like that!! I hardly ever get any grief about what I spend on hunting and guns, but next time I do; Wham ... "It's our 401K Honey!" and "A life insurance policy" to boot!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ B:
Althoough i am a fan of a double and have carried nothing else for 30 years they do have their limitations, and I really would not advocate them for use by hunting clients ,

WOW! I'm not sure if this emoticon is more appropriate: or if this one is better:

And yes, I know who Russ Broom is. That statement just seems to paint client hunters with a broad brush.

Russ would state this as a general rule.

The only problem I see is price. I really liked my PH's 500 NE Krieghoff

Yep. Double rifles certainly do have their problems. And after the divorce, you're left with the ammunition.

Double Rifles are on different levels.

The different makers, are the bottom line on the Double rifles that will appreciate in value.

I have taken 2 Cape Buffalo with a 450 NE double rifle.

For my !st Safari i rented and old Navy 450-NE and shot Hornady Ammo.

Now i am looking for on quality Double that i can afford. I would like to use it to hunt Elephant, Cape Buffalo and dry land Hippo.

The issue with Double Rifles is everyone wants one...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ B:
Althoough i am a fan of a double and have carried nothing else for 30 years they do have their limitations, and I really would not advocate them for use by hunting clients ,

WOW! I'm not sure if this emoticon is more appropriate: or if this one is better:

And yes, I know who Russ Broom is. That statement just seems to paint client hunters with a broad brush.

Certainly Russ's words do carry some weight with most who know who he is and what he has done for some years for a living. However his recommendation is assuming that most who use a double rifle to hunt buffalo and elephant are poor shooters with their double rifles, and that may well be his experience.

Being one of the four charter members of DRSS I happen to know well personally about 50 hunters who hunt almost exclusively with double rifles, in both their home land and in Africa. In my experience these folks would blow that theory to hell. I wouldn’t want to stand at 200 yds from any of them hoping they couldn’t hit me with the first shot from their double rifles!

The fact that I have been shooting and hunting with double rifles for some 54 years certainly doesn’t place me in the same light as Russ Broom, it does ,however, indicate my having a lot more confidence in the double rifle owners I know than Russ seems to have.

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………….............. ..................

Mac, I think Russ may be speaking from experience with a multitude of clients, and not referring to the few who are experienced and talented enough to use a DR effectively. His point about a DR being a PH's rifle, for sorting out problem situations at close range, hits to the heart of it. That's what they're for! Those who extol the DR as being better for African hunting than a scoped bolt rifle are just trying to find justification for using one, and for spending an outlandish amount of money to acquire it.

Yes, I've heard the stories..."I shot a (insert animal) at 250 yards with my (insert DR)". That may be so, but that begs the question...was that the best rifle choice to use for that shot?

I love double rifles myself, but I go afield accepting the limitation I'm imposing on myself by using one. I also bowhunt for the same reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mac, I think Russ may be speaking from experience with a multitude of clients, and not referring to the few the few who are experienced and talented enough to use a DR effectively...

I think many on here are too quick to "defend themselves".

Lets face it, if you are on this forum you are not the typical client.

And because of our specialised interests and the fact that I suspect many like to associate with like minded people - we probably know more than our fair share of people who are also not typical clients.

Maybe because we have those outlets we sometimes forget what an absurdly small minority of the African hunting client base we represent.

If Mr. Broom paints with a "broad brush" he does so out of a lot of personal experience.

I would recommend my hunting clients do go and buy a nice double rifle and do get some proper training and practice and do come hunting with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ B:
Althoough i am a fan of a double and have carried nothing else for 30 years they do have their limitations, and I really would not advocate them for use by hunting clients,

On the other hand for follow up work as a PH there is nothing better. Most Lion charges take place at a range of 15 to 30 yards and there is almost no one that can crank a bolt quick enough for a second shot, whereas a double gives the little bit of extra comfort knowing you have a second shot.

as one of the previous writers put it a little oil and a bit of attention is the only maintenence needed.

Guess Russ is not interested in my business.

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ B:
Althoough i am a fan of a double and have carried nothing else for 30 years they do have their limitations, and I really would not advocate them for use by hunting clients,

On the other hand for follow up work as a PH there is nothing better. Most Lion charges take place at a range of 15 to 30 yards and there is almost no one that can crank a bolt quick enough for a second shot, whereas a double gives the little bit of extra comfort knowing you have a second shot.

as one of the previous writers put it a little oil and a bit of attention is the only maintenence needed.

Guess Russ is not interested in my business.

That is my point exactly! When I inquired with CMS about whether or not I should can the double 9.3 for my lion hunt and bring a 375 instead, the answer was, "Bring the double". I like that attitude!!

And I did state Russ paints with a broad brush on that statement. I also gave a nod to his experience by stating that I know who he is and what his background is with DG! However to state you don't recommend a client hunt with a double without qualifying who those clients are is "broad". Would he tell Shockey not to bring the muzzle loader, or Nesbit not to bring the bow and arrow? Some of us want to hunt with the chosen weapon regardless of the fact that some shot opportunities will be given up. Again, I have NO interest in sniping a buffalo from 100 yards or more. Felt that way on my first one and still do.

Matt, I look forward to hunting with you and I will be bringing at least 1 double rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:


Yes, I've heard the stories..."I shot a (insert animal) at 250 yards with my (insert DR)". That may be so, but that begs the question...was that the best rifle choice to use for that shot?

If it was my money that paid for my hunt and my shot, HELL YES it is the best rifle choice for use on that shot!

I'm with you, Scriptus, and I provided some of the photos for Will's books. Definitely nothing wrong with the photos!

Dutch

The problem with double rifles is:
I now have a high fever (104) for 1 & will have to sell about 10 or 12 other firearms to be able to afford 1.
Not sure how long that will take, but it starts this week.

The only problem I ever had with a double was that I sold my Rigby 470 NE. That was one rifle sale I really wish I hadn't done.

Todd, is you jug of Kool-Aid half empty or half full? :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Todd, is you jug of Kool-Aid half empty or half full? :-)

I'm afraid I drank it all Biebs!

Hey Biebs, if I can get it to upload where I am today, I've got a little video clip for you!!

Stand by!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mac, I think Russ may be speaking from experience with a multitude of clients, and not referring to the few who are experienced and talented enough to use a DR effectively. His point about a DR being a PH's rifle, for sorting out problem situations at close range, hits to the heart of it. That's what they're for!

Biebs I;m quite aware why Russ it saying what he is, but he is not saying it about people who can’t shoot their rifles, just the ones who can’t shoot double rifles. I would bet he has had far more bolt rifle shooter who didn’t shoot well that double rifle shooters.

Only for follow-up???? I’m sorry Biebs, but that is not what they are for!

The double rifle is a hunting rifle. In fact the only rifle that started life as a hunting rifle, while all others started life as weapons of war! The double rifle has never been used for anything else except specialty occasions like in WWI when they were used in urban warfare to shoot through walls hiding German snipers. The fact that the double rifle is the best choice for following up wounded dangerous game is simply a plus , but not the only thing is was designed for or even the first thing it was designed for!

quote:

Those who extol the DR as being better for African hunting than a scoped bolt rifle are just trying to find justification for using one, and for spending an outlandish amount of money to acquire it.

First off, nobody is saying the double rifle is better than any other rifle for hunting Africa! The scoped bolt is better than any un-scoped rifle for general hunting, including an un-scoped bolt rifle for hunting Africa or any other place. A iron sighted double rifle is as good as any irons sighted rifle regardless of type, if the shooter can shoot iron sights.

quote:

Yes, I've heard the stories..."I shot a (insert animal) at 250 yards with my (insert DR)". That may be so, but that begs the question...was that the best rifle choice to use for that shot?

I love double rifles myself, but I go afield accepting the limitation I'm imposing on myself by using one. I also bowhunt for the same reason.

Again nobody is saying the double rifle is or isn’t the best choice for any purpose! However it seems some are saying everything else is better than a double rifle for all purposes other than follow-up and that is simply not so! I have never understood the idea people have that a double rifle is only worth it’s price when an animal is charging it’s owner at twenty yards! If properly regulated a double rifle is as good at longer range as any iron sighted rifle of the same chambering. The determining factor is the shooter’s skill with the rifle, regardless of what type it is.

I would say that Russ has had as many or more clients that couldn’t shoot their scoped bolt rifle well, than the clients who brought a double rifle on a buffalo safari. Clients that can’t shoot are not rare by any means, especially for the PHs who deal with only very rich clients because of their prices, regardless of the rifle they use but I would say the guy who shows up on his first safari with a shiny new 460Wby Mag scoped bolt rifle and asks if the PH will zero it for him, is a client you need to watch very closely. That statement doesn’t say all scoped bolt rifles are bad, but simply stating the average guy buying a scoped 460 Wby Mag for a first dangerous game safari may be out of HIS element!

What Russ is saying is that the double rifle regardless of chambering that is not to be recommended simply because it has two barrels. That my friend is broad brush opinion!

I would say that most scoped bolt rifle hunters wouldn’t do well with any type iron sighted rifle, but for the man who shoots iron sighted rifles it is a different story. There is an old saying that rings true to me, and that is “Be wary of the man who owns only one gun,(or type) for he likely knows how to use it!” That saying makes no distinction as to type of rifle simply because it applies to the shooter, not the type of rifle he shoots!

Like Todd I think anyone who thinks he is qualified to say a double rifle is strictly a professional rifle and not to be recommended to a client who books a dangerous game safari and chooses to hunt with his double rifle is delusional, and painting all clients with a broad brush. Anyone who chooses a certain type of weapon to hunt with is aware of it’s limitations, as you say you hunt with a bow, and I’ve been known to hunt with bows, handguns, iron sighted cartridge rifles, and muzzle loaders, but like you I accept the limitations involved. That fact has nothing to do with the client’s right to hunt with what every he wants as long as it is legal. The limitation is the SHOOTER’S ability with his weapon no matter what type it is.
..........................................................................................................

Ok Biebs! Here you go.

First the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Caw&feature=youtu.be

Then the pictures:





So, the shot was made at 151 yards, lasered. Rifle is a Chapuis 9.3X74R double rifle with Trijicon 1.25x4 scope and post / triangle reticle.

I placed the shot to the left of "between the eyes" so that the bullet would enter the face, then exit just behind the offside shoulder, thereby maximizing the bullet's route through the vitals. In addition, I made sure to place the bullet just far enough to the right to miss the tip of his tusk.

So I beg the question: If this was not the best rifle for the job, wasn't it at least as good as any other! Would you agree? I mean, how much more precisely would you want the bullet to be placed?

Not looking for any type of "justification to use a double". Not afraid of having to pass the shot because I'm using a double. But IMO, proof that a double is not just a short range weapon best suited for stopping charges. But of course, it excels at that task also!!

Todd, when I grow up, I want to be just like you! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Todd, when I grow up, I want to be just like you! :-)

Don't worry Jon. You're an OK guy. As far as you know!!

Just kidding you of course!!

(As far as you know)

Starting to sound a little like a "my member is bigger than your member" sort of argument. Use whatever you want and whatever you are comfortable with.

Nice Shootin' "Tex".. Todd!

Nice warthog and nice shooting Todd!!

To be honest pretty much all of the double rifle shooters I have had hunting with us in the last five years have all been skilled with their use. Most of them take responsibility and know their gear and practice. I am shocked by some the shots that they take sucessfully. Would put me to shame with similar gear (I am a relatively DR newbie).

Sure I can understand what Russ is saying - you don't go telling people randomly that you need a double rifle for big critters... but I sure wouldnt be discouraging it. It can be part of the mad adventure I reckon!! If all our clients showed up with a B/A 375 it would get downright boring.... what the hell I say ... we'll do the very best we can - be it DR, B/A, single shot, muzzle loader, handgun, arrows or hell... even a spear!!!

This game is meant to be fun fellows!!

quote:

This game is meant to be fun fellows!!

Not to some it isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

This game is meant to be fun fellows!!

Not to some it isn't.

It seems some don’t want it to be fun! I say leave everyone alone and let them hunt with what ever type of rifle they want as long as it is legal. If they flub a shot it is usually not the rifle’s fault but the shooter’s, and he is paying the bill and is the one who goes home empty because he has to pass a shot he might have made with another type of weapon! As Matt says it is meant to be fun for the client, and is simply a job to the PH! A job that most clients would love to have however!
........................................................................

Well said Mac...to each his own :-)

Some people are simply stubborn. If killing is fun then keep that feeling to yourself.
Putting it in writing just feeds the antis who thrive on this kind of talk AND it pays them dividends ....though some people are either blind or too dumb to realize that the hunting fraternity is digging its own grave.

Their most recent victory is the very strong petition to up-list the Lion and if it goes through say thanks to the hunter's attitude (not all). Not true? .....then why is everyone being rallied to counter-petition? Obviously someone (hunting community) is scared shitless that it will be up-listed/banned from being imported into the States.
Kenya closed (didn't help the game but the antis don't give a shit as long as you, or Fred Bloggs can't legally kill it) and Botswana also done and dusted - by courtesy of the Antis...no?

I've hunted a lot in my time (probably more than a lot of folk on this forum) and I've certainly got nothing to lose from any ban.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Some people are simply stubborn. If killing is fun then keep that feeling to yourself.
Putting it in writing just feeds the antis who thrive on this kind of talk AND it pays them dividends ....though some people are either blind or too dumb to realize that the hunting fraternity is digging its own grave.

Their most recent victory is the very strong petition to up-list the Lion and if it goes through say thanks to the hunter's attitude (not all). Not true? .....then why is everyone being rallied to counter-petition? Obviously someone (hunting community) is scared shitless that it will be up-listed/banned from being imported into the States.
Kenya closed (didn't help the game but the antis don't give a shit as long as you, or Fred Bloggs can't legally kill it) and Botswana also done and dusted - by courtesy of the Antis...no?

I've hunted a lot in my time (probably more than a lot of folk on this forum) and I've certainly got nothing to lose from any ban.

Am I missing something here? Where did this thread get on this track? Firstly, I don't see anyone talking about the act of killing being fun. Hunting is certainly fun but then hunting is much, much more than killing. Secondly, this IS a forum oriented toward HUNTING and SHOOTING. So are we to stop talking about HUNTING and SHOOTING because we are afraid of what the anti's will do with our discussions here? IF so, what is the point of reading and posting here in the first place?

This thread started as just one more of a thousand rekindling the debate over the preference of bolt / double guns. Always a fun debate. How did it evolve into lions possibly being uplisted?

Hunting is fun. Shooting is fun. Debating preferences on either among like minded folks is fun. If that offends the anti wackos, well then so be it.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea of the exchange between Biebs and myself, we are friends here on AR and just having a bit of fun poking at each other as we often do. Just check some of our jousts over Blaser rifles. Sorry Jon, just couldn't resist one more!! What Biebs hasn't told you is that he is just as addicted to double rifles as I am.

Geessshhh! Lighten up.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Some people are simply stubborn. If killing is fun then keep that feeling to yourself.

Gentlemen, it is not the killing, but the hunting that is fun! It seems that the antis are not the only ones who have forgotten that hunting was not invented by humans, but is a practice utilized throughout the natural world, and is as natural a breathing. Legal hunting, no matter how it is done legally is beneficial to wild life, preserving habitat, for not only game animals but all wildlife.

There are prey animals, and predators and omnivores that make up the natural world and none are wrong or right they just ARE! The predators kill for food, but also kill their competition to maintain the resources for themselves.

Hunting and killing is practiced by the antis as well even though they don’t realize it, or don’t want you to know the realize it. With the antis their agenda is “CONTROL” and has nothing to do with wildlife at all in most cases. When they go to the butcher shop or restaurant to buy a steak, they are hunting in a modern way, leaving the procurement to the rancher, and the killing to the packing house and the leather to the tanners. They only consume and let others do their hunting and killing. They seem to think meat comes wrapped in plastic wrap naturally. However what they are doing is simply paying someone else to do their killing.

They wear leather shoes, and belts and clothing killed by some one else. The shop in 1000 acre shopping centers that took habitat away from wildlife, and insist on having paved roads to drive their cars on that take millions of square miles of wildlife habitat. Then some claim they are vegetarians to save the animals, when the fields needed to grow the veggies they eat, take millions more square miles of habitat where wild life will not be tolerated to protect the vegetable crops.

The most ignorant people in the world are the anti hunting community, so it is to be expected they will make statements they are not qualified to make, and are so dishonorable that they will take the hunters words out of context no matter how the hunter actually worded them to further their own agenda. The see no difference in you and any other hunter, and no matter how you post, they will find a way to repeat it out of context.

If you want to know what does the most damage on web-sites like this one, it is one hunter calling another hunter down for enjoying hunting or hunting in a way you don’t like, but is legal, and is legal because it is not putting undue impact of the wild life population involved.

You will not deter the mindset of the anti-hunting zealot because he thinks all hunting is wrong and it doesn’t matter if you enjoy hunting or not he will condemn you. If you use a rifle he will complain that you didn’t use a bow, if you use a bow he will ask why you didn’t use your bare hands. If you use your bare hands he will cheer the fact that YOU were killed in the process of barehanded HUNTING!

So gentlemen, what I’m saying is, it makes little difference what you say or how you say it the anti will find a way to distort the meaning, so quit worrying about the dumb-assed antis and quit down grading other hunters for a couple of words in their posts that simply do nothing to harm hunting. One hunter down grading another hunter does far more harm.

...............Hold on till I get my foxhole dug!

The problem with doubles is that I don't own one YET!!

Cecil, let me know what you have for sale. I will be in Louisiana the first two weeks of January.

Todd-

You're not missing anything.

fujotupu is simply acting out again, and as usual, he knows better than anyone on AR. Since he's apparently not having any fun, perhaps he should find a different livelihood? If you don't agree with him he will send you unsolicited PMs. He actually has less experience than he'd like you to believe. Not sure why he even posts on AR. In reply to one of his PMs over two years ago, I told him he was an ass; nothing has changed. I suggest you simply ignore his comments; I do.