This topic has been beat to death here, but with my memorie slipping and some threads going in 87 different directions after 2 posts i'll ask it again. No its not a 45-70 thread.
Next year I'm going to buy a double, I have never had one and I think it would be cool to have one the Thanksgiving thread gave me the idea. So I have a few questions. Any input would be great.

I'm not in a hurry so having one commisioned is fine.

I dont care what I spend $$$ isnt an issue.

I'll probably hunt with it so gold inlays are silly and I dont like them, engraving is great.

Box lock or side lock?

most importantly what caliber? Recoil is no issue with me. Elephants will be the primary use-brain shots, and the occasional buffalo.

I also want a gun I can just go shoot for fun as well.

Those are the primary questions and what I need to know is what would fit that description a H&H
would be cool. i want a new gun. thanks

I just want to be clear, When I said a H&H would be cool I meant the gun not the caliber, or any other high end gun is what I want. I dont want just a working gun, i have plenty of them, I dont mind a little wear on a fine gun either, I dont abuse guns at all, so taking a fine quality double in the field dosent concern me. thanks again

If you want the best and are not in a hurry order a McKay Brown and know you have one of the best and a make you won't meet at every shoot. His round bodied guns are truly works of art that I would gladly shoot every day with EXTREME pleasure. I would have it in the old fashioned 470 Nitro and enjoy it for the rest of my life. Besides the one time I met him he seemed truly pleased to let me handle his guns. If I were not concerned about money I would also order one of his 20ga O/U's just for the odd bird hunt.

IF money is not an issue, you aren't going to get better than a Holland and Holland. Last I heard, the wait time is 3 years or more.
Second choice, a close second would be Westley Richards.

Sidelock over the boxlock. H&H makes their "best" guns in sidelock. WR makes a droplock that is pretty neat. Lots of room for engraving with a sidelock.

If this is primarily for elephant, the 577 Nitro Express is the way to go in my view. It is a stopper - that is what it was designed for. If you wanted something less focused on elephant and a little more "all around", then a 500 or 470 Nitro would be fine (the 500 being a definite step up in power).

If you really want to go wild, H&H can make you a matched pair (eg, a 577 and a 470) or triplets (a 9.3 X 74, a 470 and a 577).

I handled a .500 NE 3" H&H Royal sidelock rifle in Botswana, brand new gun, first safari for the owner. It weighed about 11.5 pounds, custom made to his specifications, and of course by H&H's rules of fair play, and whatever 6 figures cash was dropped.

It double-fired with his first shot at an elephant. He waited a bit too long, brush was in the way, as the bull raced by and ended up shooting it in the back of the head, so broke it's neck or put at least one of the two bullets into the elephant's CNS somehow. I did not get the autopsy report.

Probably the double fire was caused by the hunter yanking both triggers accidentally, but he said he was sending it back to H&H for a checking over.

Putting all idealized propriety and resale or investment issues aside:

Get a Searcy .500 NE 3" made up with 10" twist barrels in stainless and synthetic and weighing exactly 10 pounds bare weight.

Your heart and your pocket book will sing.
Then get a WR droplock with your spare change, in something sensible like a 9.3 to .470.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Probably the double fire was caused by the hunter yanking both triggers accidentally

Gee, ya think?

H&H: 150 years or so.
Hunter: 15 min.

You make the call.

If you are getting a double for hunting dangerous game. I would look at a FAMARS in a 470 or 500 get the dolls head rib extension, the cost last I checked about $42,000. If you want investment potential then a Westely Richards droplock in a 470 or 500, price in the mid $80's. Either one would be nice.

If I were dreaming I would have a WR droplock in a 476. Just because!!

505Ed

Eric

I assume by your post you are not interested in the cheaper rifles like Searcy and Kreighoff.

If it was me, and I was doing it again, I would look for a Rigby with the rising bite in 450 3 1/4.

It is a very traditional caliber and rifle in, perhaps, the best action design ever made for a Double. You will have to get a used one and look to spend on the uphill side of $60,000. It will appreciate if you worry about such stuff.

I don't believe WR makes the Drop Lock anynmore, so again you will need to find a used one, but a 500 or 577 is a nice rifle for what you seem to want.

A H&H in 500/465 is a great rifle, I've had two. Nothing says quality like a H&H and the 465 is the same as a 450-470.

Once you have shot and used a really quality Double you will know what the excitment is all about.

Make sure the rifle fits and have it looked over by an independent and knowledgable person. For the kind of money you seem to be talking about a trip to the gun to shoot it plus an inspection period would be in order.

Find a rifle that fits you and points like a light shotty. It should seem slim and alive in your hands.

You will know the right one when you find it.

Mickey1,

You know more than I, but I thought WR still made there droplock. It looks like on there site that one can still be ordered, at a starting price of 39,500 pounds.Out of my leauge, but a hell of a nice rifle.

505ED

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
Mickey1,

You know more than I, but I thought WR still made there droplock. It looks like on there site that one can still be ordered, at a starting price of 39,500 pounds.Out of my leauge, but a hell of a nice rifle.

505ED

505ED

I don't know if I know more than anybody. I had heard they were no longer going to make them but I can and have been wrong before.

I would go for the best you can afford, in 500NE (1st choice), 450 3 1/2 inch (2nd choice), or .470 (3rd choice). Yes, the .577 (and also the .600) makes more serious "elephant stopper" calibers, on paper that is. I have seen at least 10 headshots (note- not neccicerally brain shots...) with these heavies, that failed to "knock down" elephant, and some where even cows...! Go with the .500, its more controllable, easy to shoot well, and will kill anything on this planet as good as a .700 NE

LV

Besides window shopping and bothering the helloutofthesalesmen, I suggest going to the Texas bunch and check out all the DR's they bring out. Shoot as many of these critters as you possibly can. You'll get a picture of what it is that really turns you on. My start was in shooting my old hunting partner's dad's WR's in 475 No2 Jeffery, 500 BPE and the coupdegrace, the 577NE. I was literally floored. It also didn't help that one of my favorite writers shot lots of doubles and went to Africa with them.

Karl

I believe it's a marksmanship problem and not a caliber problem, IMO

Eric,

You are certainly in an enviable position. Being somewhat of an
"anglophile" I would lean towards obtaining an English built double.
If money were no problem, I would go across the pond to England & look
at the various makers. I've been to their shops & it is really a
joy to just look at & hold all those wonderful doubles. If you contacted
them ahead of time, they would probably arrange for you to be measured/fitted
& potentially shoot their doubles. Don't let the 2-3 year waiting list
scare you off, it's the same with buying anything high grade (cars,
jets,...), there is typically someone further up on the list who will
be willing to sell/trade their position with you for a fee!

As far as caliber, anything in the 450-500 class will work fine.

The type of double, would depend on the maker you choose. I would get
a "boxlock" in either Round Action McKay Brown or a Droplock Westley Richards.
If I went with Purdey or H&H, then I would get a "sidelock". I'm with you
on engraving, would probably stay away from gold inlays & just get
a nice English or Celtic scroll.

This is what I did & ended up getting all four, then I woke up &
realized it was just a dream (but a very good one). Anyway, whatever
you get, no matter how nice it looks, take it out & drag it through
the jesse & shoot a big tusker! Keep us informed on your progress.

Good Hunting,
Jungleboy

I talked to H&H at SCI last year and they said a year, I sorta know them, thats the direction i'm leaning, i have been reading alot since i srartes this thread, the wait dosent bother me. I just recieved a Patek Phillepe watch I waited 2 years for and it costs much more than any double, I bought it as an investment-i dabble in watches and do very well. Back to the double I just want one and I dont think I can get hurt buying a Purdy or H&H. thanks for the input gentelman

I'd ask if you want to carry the rifle through the AFRICAN bush yourself.

If you do, it is not likely that you want a 577 or 600. [Unless you are

going to buy two rifles, say a 450/400 for you to carry at 9 - 9.5 pounds

and a 577 or 600 for a barer to carry] According to all I have heard a guy

is a very rare breed if he can carry a 13 - 17 pound rifle all day and at

the end of the day handle it properly to kill something dangerous and charging!

Many have argued that the best ever action design for a double is the

www.westleyrichards.com drop lock. Others fight for the H&H or Purdey sidelock.

Then there are the trigger plate/blitz type advocates [ala McKay Brown].

And some feel the straight forward boxlock as done with the Webley screw grip

is the "mountain top". With your money you can enjoy owning them all and

comparing them all over the course of decades. If I could have a gift of one,

and they all were selling for the exact same price, and they all were equally

strong as investments, I think it would be a Westley Richards drop lock, with

an extra pair of locks. I just admire the design so very much. As to caliber,

me choosing a caliber is the biggest joke on AR, I just can NOT do it, try as

I might. It would be 475 #2 Jeffery or smaller, down to H&H 375 flanged mag,

as I want to carry it myself and I don't want a rifle over 10.5 pounds.

You should think about bidding on SCI Auction number 19504. This is for a 14 day bull elephant hunt with Chifuti Safaris (PH-Andrew Dawson accompanied by Craig Boddington), a custom fitted boxlock double in .470 NE by John Rigby and filmed by Safari Classics Productions. This way you'd not only get a great hunt and rifle, but your rifle would be done in time for the 2007 safari.

quote:

Karl

I believe it's a marksmanship problem and not a caliber problem, IMO

475, yes it was a marksmanship problem, but my point is that if you hit the brain with a .500 or a .577 (or even a "lowly" .375, the result is a dead elephant. Also, that any rifle over .450 caliber (shooting a good quality 480gr bullet or heavier at least 2100 ft/ sec.)will be adequate IMO to use as a stopper rifle.

LV Eric:

If you go with a Holland (which you should) your caliber should be their .500/465.

A Holland Royal and their .500/465 round just goes together.

That's what Tony Sanchez Arino has.

Every shot will not be a perfect shot due to circumstances; critter coming at you, critter running away from you, adrenalin rush, or whatever. Just ask Will whether all his shots were perfectly placed. It's just that if that perfect shot doesn't happen, it'll give you a second chance. I happen to like the fudge factor a big gun gives you.

...hum how about "Ferlach guys"? - they may hit appendix 1 chart soon tho just a thought:

Hauptmann

or

Hambrusch

caliber - 450/400 N.E.

Get the smallest caliber you are comfortable shooting elephant with and go from there - I say that because, presumably you will shoot it more for fun as well as hunting.

As for what makes YOU comfortable - that's up to you. Me, I'd take a .45-70

Brent

In handling, shooting and repairing doubles I have seen several best quality guns with very poor workmanship. In turn, some of the lower grade guns are very, very good but you need to make a decision on conventional guns or the more modern looking Blaser and Kreighoff. First I have found the shootability of the Blaser second to none. Most shooters are not accustom to how to shoot the gun so the Blaser with multiple calibre options make sense. On English guns I have seen too many lemons on the used or bespoke market. I do like the new Royal Ejector very much, 500/.465 with a set of .375 Fl barrels would be perfect.
However, the master gun artfully built by Hartmann and Weiss, Fanjoz, Just, and Hambursch need to be examined with great attention, they may perhaps be better that the H&H.
So my choices would be H&H or a Blaser

Aleko

If you are up for going to a smaller maker I would check out Peter Hofer ( http://www.hoferwaffen.com/hofer_5.php?lang=en ) and Trevor Proctor ( http://www.ttproctor.com/ ). They both make beautiful rifles.

With an unlimited budget, I would look no further than Hartmann and Weiss.

Bulldog:

Have you ever seen or handled a Proctor rifle in person? Or are you just expressing a third party opinion from stuff you read somewhere?

I don't know much about doubles (way outta my league), but if I was looking for a new one with no pre-set spending limit I would naturally gravitate to an H&H or a Rigby. I am sure its just a name recognition/nostalgia thing. Can't help but think they would only appreciate too.





Of course, I'd probably also take it to the range in a pimped out Hummer or maybe an Enzo. Definitely. To dream.....

Eric, if you are looking at fine rifle investments, here's an excuse to come to my hometown and let me buy you a beer before heading down to commision a rifle from a legend....Martini and Hagn Gunmakers

500NE single shot on Magnum Hagn Action


416 Rigby


The rifles the make on Hagn's single shot actions will undoubtedly become very very expensive when he retires.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Heritage Arms:
In handling, shooting and repairing doubles I have seen several best quality guns with very poor workmanship. In turn, some of the lower grade guns are very, very good but you need to make a decision on conventional guns or the more modern looking Blaser and Kreighoff. First I have found the shootability of the Blaser second to none. Most shooters are not accustom to how to shoot the gun so the Blaser with multiple calibre options make sense. On English guns I have seen too many lemons on the used or bespoke market. I do like the new Royal Ejector very much, 500/.465 with a set of .375 Fl barrels would be perfect.
However, the master gun artfully built by Hartmann and Weiss, Fanjoz, Just, and Hambursch need to be examined with great attention, they may perhaps be better that the H&H.
So my choices would be H&H or a Blaser

Aleko

Most uninformed statement about DRs I've ever read on the internet.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

577NitroExpress

You have a PM

Bulldog:

Received you PM and responded. Should you revise you post?

577NitroExpress,

I have met Trevor Proctor and handled his guns. He is a true craftsman!

SBT:

I don't doubt for one moment that Trevor makes a great gun.

What I do have a problem with is a person saying that Trevor makes a great gun when that person never met, handled, shot or used one of them. The only knowledge they have is what they read or was told by a third party. There is no basis for comparison in my mind, thus a BS post with nothing more than regurgitated information from other people.

For the record, the post I was referring to has been edited to change a word from "great" to "beautiful." How it is worded now isn't what I originally responded to.

Sorry for the thread tangent.

LV Eric,
I would own a David McKay Brown in 470 NE and never have to look back!
Doug

Eric LV,

I have a Marcel Thys sidelock. If I were to commision a rifle I would commision a sidelock and look at a couple of the smaller european shops that make english style rifles. Thys retired. Sieganhann (sp?), or Hartman and Weiss would be canidates. I have no first hand knowledge of either but those who do think very highly of each maker. I would look at McKay Brown (which is a round action gun with the locks mounted on the trigger plate) but every rifle that I've seen advertised weighed more than it should - but this could be how the rifle was commisioned. I haven't handled a McKay Brown rifle but the shotguns I've seen have been very nice. I don't think you could go wrong with an H&H. Every H&H rifle that I've seen, including old and poorly cared for rifles started out very well made - not so for their shotguns. Its up to you to make sure that the rifle you get is the quality you pay for, no matter who you order it from.

I'd think hard about a 470 because, in my experience, 470 ammo can be readily found - at least in Zimbabwe - if it comes to that. An H&H in 500/465NE aka 465H&H would be hard to beat for a classic H&H rifle in a classic H&H cartridge. A 450 3 1/4" NE uses a slimmer case and, in theory, can be had in a slimmer, lighter rifle. Personally I think I'd go with a 450 3 1/4" NE, but I'm not entirely sure.

I would have the rifle built to weigh 10 lbs. The rifle would have ejectors. It would also have a leather covered butt pad.

North Fork flat nose solids are available in at least the 450 and 470, not sure about the 465. Penetration is fantastic, much, much better than Woodleigh solids. They make whatever rifle you are carrying a better performer in my opinion. I would have the rifle regulated with Woodleighs since, based on my experience and a couple of other fellows' too, it seems that its easy to get the North Forks to shoot well in rifles regulated with Woodleighs.

What a fun project. Good luck.

JPK

LV Eric

I think I am too envious to reply. Oh well I'll do it any way.

Since money is no object then I would with no hesitation order a Holland & Holland double. As for caliber the 470 or 500/465 would be my choices. No need to carry a heavier caliber as the above two calibers will habndle any situations you might encounter. Heavier calibers have to weigh more and I am a firm believer in a double weighing no more than 10 1/2 lbs for easy carry. As for a box lock or sidelock action, either one will work fine but their is something classical about the sidelock double rifle that makes me lean towards it if I could afford it.

465H&H

If money is no object - hit the British makers and decide what you like best. I've seen recent guns from Holland, Purdey, McKay Brown, Westley, and William Evans, all of which were nice, but it depends on what you want. I like the Westley Droplock and the McKay Brown best, because I don't care for sidelock DRs. If you prefer the "missing link" stuff, the others make nice sidelocks. The Holland is the sexiest sidelock DR there is, but I wish they didn't come off face so easily.

I'd be inclined to get a caliber that the maker is known for, such as .500/.465 for a Holland. I would also ask about .450 No. 2, although I don't know if any of the British makers will chamber it today. A & S Famars did, not all that long ago. To me, the purpose of the project that you propose, for the kind of money you're going to spend, is to get something special, something that represents an ideal. I couldn't care less about the availability of factory ammo in Diego Garcia. If your ammo gets lost, it's lost. That's what the .375 bolt-cranker garbage is for anyway. The .470 has no soul.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

LV Eric,

On 400 Nitro Express's comment on ammo, I've never lost mine but jeez it would be a shame to go all the way over and be stuck with a hell of a beautiful club.

On the other hand, the 500/465 is a natural for an H&H

On an H&H coming off face, I seriously doubt that you could shoot it off face in your life time, so long as you maintain it, but if you do its no big deal to have it renewed.

JPK

@.400 H&H

I guess we are not free to have our opinions? Oh I forgot this website has lost it's informative aspect? What's your point? I forgot my experiance DOES NOT count on your commentary

Aleko

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
On an H&H coming off face, I seriously doubt that you could shoot it off face in your life time, so long as you maintain it, but if you do its no big deal to have it renewed.

JPK

JPK:

A few years ago, I happened to handle three "Royal" DRs in a row that were off face, and realized that I remembered seeing quite a few over the years before that. I was speaking to J. J. shortly thereafter, and asked him about it. His exact words were "Oh, Holland's come off face when the wind blows". Now, J. J. LIKES Holland's. He says they're wonderful rifles, but they just don't stay on face very well. Not that it's a big deal - neither difficult nor expensive to rejoint them. Just annoying.

Last week a good friend had a "Royal" DR sent to J. J. on approval. Turned out to be a lovely rifle in excellent condition, showing few signs of use. J. J. said it was "loose as a goose."
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro Express,

I know JJ likes H&H, in fact he compared my rifle to H&H rifles, favorably. Ask him! He also beleives that the third fastener works too!
(I acknowledge that he may be biased toward Thys rifles)

Still, I contend that no first rate rifle, and few second rate or third rate or any well fitted rifles, what ever their external finish - firing NE cartridges - is ever likely to come off face in an original owner's lifetime, so long as it is cared for. More joint wear comes from just opening the rifle dry than firing 100 rounds in small batches, properly cleaned and lubed between.

For that matter I don't beleive that a good rifle shooting high pressure rounds, like mine, will come off face for thousands and thousands of rounds, a life time for most - so long as it is properly cared for.

Think of a deisel engine. Over 90% of wear occurs on start up, unless the engine has a prelube system. There is relatively little stress on start up compared to when the engine is running at rated power. The wear comes from metal to metal contact without proper lubrication.

No different for a double gun of any sort. Firing or just opening the rifle without lubrication will wear it quickly. Try it when the gun is or gets smoking hot and you will gall the metal on the hinge pin or the lump or both.

JPK

JPK:

Overall, I agree. I do think that the quality of fitting plays a big role, and I've seen a number of the newer, cheaper rifles off face prematurely. The ammunition they're fed has a major role as well. I disagree about the high pressure rimless rounds. With respect to Holland in particular, I disagree, and I know that J. J. does as well. I just had this conversation with him last week. Ask him yourself next time you talk to him.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."