Where do you think one would have the greatest chance of success for a mature lion with a thick, full mane? Please list country, area or concession, safari company and PH. I think I know what ForrestB will say.

SBT,

I'm going out on a limb here because so many people apparently have different perception of what makes a full maned lion. Since mane is almost always a condition of maturity in theory you might find a great lion in any of the southern African countries.

Obviously your chances of taking the lion of your dreams will be much more likely in an area where they are not hunted too hard. A lot of PH's use the same trees to hang bait on every safari and they shoot every 4-5 year old that shows up and tell the client that the bush pulled the mane out or they loose it in fights or some BS. On the other hand if you have never shot a lion before a somewhat scruffy big but young lion looks pretty good. Personally I shot just such a lion in Zambia and was very happy. Now I'm looking for a much better one.

I guess the point is and to answer your question you need to book with a safari company that practices lion conservation or in other words won't let you shoot a lion that is not fully mature. Perhaps there are such companies all over Africa but I don't think so. TGTS in Tanzania does practice lion conservation but if you hunt with them you have to be able to go home without a lion and feel good about it.

South Africa produces some real bruiser lions but it is somewhat questionable how many of them really are free ranging lions as opposed to being released to be shot. Botswana before the closure of lion hunting probably had the best chance for a great lion. Zambia always did and probably will produce some great lions that get pulled across the Luangwa river from the parks. They also will shoot a bunch of young lions. As Kathi's pictures show Zim can generate a good lion. Your best chance probably is in Tanzania but a monster maned lion is a great prize even there.

This is just my opinion based on my limited observations.

My lion was a fully mature lion that two experienced PH's said was 8 or 9 years old. I would not describe him as having monster mane, by any stretch. I'll post some more pics and you'll see what I mean - big black mane on his chest but not as much on top.



The guy in the picture with the pretty smile is Funde, the skinner, who is a diligent and gifted craftsman.

I'm not saying I'm not pleased as punch with my lion, but he just doesn't sport the hairpiece I've seen on several big males in Botswana. I've never seen a fully mature lion in Botswana that didn't have a big flowing mane. They may be a little more scratched-up than the South African pets but they are real beauties. Anywhere wild lions are currently hunted, a flowing black-maned beauty is a rare gem. Actually, any mature wild lion is a rare gem. I feel blessed just to be able to say I've been in the wild where they still roam free.

That's a great lion. Any whining about your lion should get you slapped about.

Just think about all the guys that would love that lion and will, unfortunately, never be able to afford to drop the big bucks it takes to get one anything like it.

A great lion to be proud of.

Gentlemen,

ForrestB's lion is a wonderful trophy! The scars and scratches on his face and body add tremendously to its character. That is what A WILD LION should look like!!!

In contrast the enourmously maned lions of RSA give the impression of having been reared in semi-captivity (Which most are ). They do not look like A WILD LION because they aren't

which would you rather have SBT?

Remember that an old (emphasis on old!) male lion with a full mane is the RAREST BIG GAME TROPHY to find in Africa today (equal to a 100 pound tusker!). If that is what you are after, be prepared to come home without one and feel happy about it!

Mark made a very good point:

quote:

---

but if you hunt with them you have to be able to go home without a lion and feel good about it.

---

Happy hunting!

I don't know about you guys but there are many great lions in Western Africa I would love to go after that have a mere wisp of mane...it isn't a great indication of age!
I also want to ask how exactly PHs fire off these estimations on each animals age?

Bwanamitch- Do you know what type of shampoo and cream rinse they are using before they release the MGMs in RSA?

Boghossian:

Experience! The only way you can accurately tell the age of a lion is by analising the teeth. They do this in laboratories in South Africa and other places too. Obviously you can't do this when the animal is not immobilised (dead or tranquilised) so in the field Ph's use "experience". If you see enough lions of different ages in your life, you eventually get a good feel for their age! Physical indications are shape of the head, development of the mane, coloration of the nose, body color, the teeth (when panting, you can often see if the canines are blunt through binoculars at reasonable distances), lack of "spots" on the legs and underside means it should be at least over 5 years of age, presence of old scars on the muzzle and body indicate age as males will generally have territorial fights, etc once they are dominant and this means at least 5-6 and above. There are more but these are the most obvious.

Crane:

quote:

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Bwanamitch- Do you know what type of shampoo and cream rinse they are using before they release the MGMs in RSA?

---

I saw a few that favoured Revlon! They go twice a week to the salon.....

happy hunting!

I can recommend PH Vaughan Fulton in Namibia. He has a big game concession called the Ehi-Rovipuka conservancy. It is 220 000 hectares and borders the Etosha. The lions shot in there and in neighbouring areas have been pretty nice maned.

Bwanamitch,

To me, ForrestB's lion would be a dream come true! He has the age, the size, a black chest mane, good hair on top, and the scars to prove he has walked the walk. He is Africa!

Back to the original topic of what country, what concession, what PH, etc. I would have to give a few different answers.

1. If money were no object then the best I could recommend is a lion hunter by the name of Boetie Bothma in Lukwati, Tanzania. Boetie is 26 of 27 on big mature lions. Nobody, and I mean nobody, in Africa can match his record. I challenge anyone who says they can.

2. Zambia- Luangwa Valley- lots of big mature cats. There are several good PHs up there.

3. Timbivati/Klaserie/Etc.- only the free ranging hunts bordering Kruger in SA. Very, very expensive, but you will get a huge cat. These generally go out on auction so it is difficult to pick the PH (although it is usually CVS, GKS or PTS).

Regards,
John Barth
Adventure Unlimited, Inc.
www.ausafaris.com
email- safaris@trip.net

Would anybody pass on this one? Double or Bolt?



[ 11-12-2003, 19:55: Message edited by: Mickey1 ]

Will,

Don't think for a minute that I'm whininig about my lion. If I even came across that way, I deserve to be slapped around (alot!).

I do think about about all the guys who would love to have taken a lion, but don't have the resources it takes to hunt them. Until a few short years ago I was one of them. Hell, actually, I still am one of them - I didn't let that stop me though.

SBT and Bwanamich gave perfect descriptions of my lion and, really, any mature wild lion. I was merely commenting on the stylistic vagaries of mane. Forgive me for saying anything that could be construed as maligning such a magnificent animal.

SBT:

quote:

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To me, ForrestB's lion would be a dream come true! He has the age, the size, a black chest mane, good hair on top, and the scars to prove he has walked the walk. He is Africa!

---

Absolutely correct!

Jcbarth:

quote:

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1. If money were no object then the best I could recommend is a lion hunter by the name of Boetie Bothma in Lukwati, Tanzania. Boetie is 26 of 27 on big mature lions. Nobody, and I mean nobody, in Africa can match his record. I challenge anyone who says they can.

---

As you are his agent, can post pics of the 26 lions he has taken? One can have 100% success on hunting "male lions" but what kind of "male lions" they are is the real measure of success.

Mickey1: In a flash! bolt.......458 Lott....just as he is below the chin!

Happy hunting!

Now here is another example of a mature male lion:


Happy dreaming!

Another picture of the above lion


Wow!

While we are at it:
Shoot or don't shoot?

1)


2)


3)

The record that Boetie Bothma has is I believe the best ever in modern Africa. I have seen pictures of about 10 of the lions and know several people who hunted with Boetie. The lions I saw were fantastic!! However, I believe the area he hunted now has more phs working it and therefore many more lions taken out of it so the quality may suffer.

Mike

The skull and teeth of the big lion above. Estimated age is 12 years!

Bwanamitch,

Here are some of the photos of lions taken with Boetie. Lets see yours.

















Give me a minute to download some more and I will post them also.

You want to see some of his buff and leopard?

Sincerely,
John Barth
Adventure Unlimited, Inc.
www.ausafaris.com

jcbarth,
Yes.

Bwanamitch,

Here are some more of Boetie's clients cats. I apologize for the quality of some of them as they are scanned from the brochure.

















I will post more in a minute.

Sincerely,
John Barth
Adventure Unlimited, Inc.
www.ausafaris.com
email- safaris@trip.net

Bwanamitch- Here are some more from Boetie

















More still to come.

John Barth
Adventure Unlimited, Inc.
www.ausafaris.com
email- safaris@trip.net

Whew-final set of pictures





And finally the man himself, Boetie Bothma



Please note that I do not want to take credit for all these. Only some of these clients are my clients. Boetie and I have only been working exclusively together for the last 3 years. My good friend Charlie Goldenberg also booked many hunts for Boetie in the past. How about that, an honest agent giving credit where it is due.

Bwanamitch, I hope this answers any questions you may have had, or any queries as to the quality of lion Boetie has successfully hunted with his and my clients.

Sincerely,
John Barth
Adventure Unlimited, Inc.
www.ausafaris.com
email- safaris@trip.net

Whoops- that is actually 28 lions. As I said, Boetie's record is 26 of 27 consecutive lions. They missed an opportunity at a big male just this last month with of all people my father-in-law. If that is not case for Murphy's Law then I don't know what is. 26 of 27 just doesn't sound as good as 27 consecutive.

MLindsay- you are right. There are a few other PHs who occasionally hunt in this area, but they work with Boetie and Boetie works with them. But you are incorrect when you state that many more lions are coming out of the area. They have not increased the quota. It is quite the opposite, the have actually cut their quota and adhere to their strict self-imposed standards.

The area is important, but I truly believe the PH is the most important factor. I know Boetie would produce good lions for his clients no matter where he hunted (and the best hunters generally hunt in the premier areas) I sincerely believe that. Some of the other PHs who hunted in the same area as Boetie struggled quite a bit with lion, and a few of their clients went home without a trophy. But this has not been the case with Boetie.

I would be curious to know if anyone out there knows of any PHs either in today's Africa or from the days gone by with a similar record.

Sincerely,
John Barth
Adventure Unlimited, Inc.
www.ausafaris.com
email- safaris@trip.net

JCBarth,
Thanks for the photos!

I am not an agent nor a PH. I am a keen hunter, born in Africa; but I know people in both fields. I will summarize what I think are lions that I would have passed up from your pics. All of these I would not have shot because I feel they are either too young or I feel they would have been a much better trophy if given a couple of more years to fully develop.

Before I continue I have to explain what I consider to be a shootable lion.
1- He must be at least over 7 years old, past his prime breeding stage.
2- He should not be part of a pride with sub-adult cubs or with obvious pregnant females.
3- If he is in a coalition of 2 males in a pride I would not hunt him. the remaining male would lose it's pride and probably be killed by others.
4- His mane must be fully developed; this does not necessarily mean an MGM. But the mane must have reached it's full length potential in that animal. One can tell by the length of the mane hair and whether it is "twisted" or still slightly "waivy".
5- A Nomad (single or coalition) of around 5-6 years of age is acceptable in certain circumstances whereby all known prides in an area already have a pride male.

Here is my opinion on your photos:

lion # 2 - Definetely not an old lion. Not past it's prime.
Lion # 4 - I estimate 4-5 years old, still in prime breeding age and the mane will get better.
Lion # 5 - estimate 5-6 years. Still in prime breeding age.
Lion # 7 - As above.
Lion # 8 - As # 4 above.
Lion # 11 - Questionable as the face is being pulled back - I will give the benefit of the doubt but don't believe it's an old lion.
Lion # 13 - A good lion but looks identical to # 10, just different clients and position. Is this the same lion?
Lion # 14 - A good lion. Was it taken in Tanzania? The landscape doesn't look like it but a good lion.
Lion # 17 - As # 5 above
Lion # 18 - Definetely young. Mature but young!
Lion # 20 - As # 5 above
Lion # 22 - As # 18 above
Lion # 24 - As # 22 above
Lion # 25 - As # 20 above
Lion # 26 - This is the same picture as lion # 4 from a different angle.
Lion # 27 - As # 20 above
Lion # 28 - Probably 5-6 so I would have given him 1 to 2 more years. The mane would have gotten better.

That is 15 out of the 27 lions that I would have passed up. I am not starting an argument with anybody; I don't know Boetie nor am I implying that he is not a good lion hunter - just raising a point.

Mark Young made a very good point in post # 2 in this thread.

quote:

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MARK H. YOUNG
.... A lot of PH's use the same trees to hang bait on every safari and they shoot every 4-5 year old that shows up and tell the client that the bush pulled the mane out or they loose it in fights or some BS.

---

Hunting is all about management and lion management is just like whitetail deer or turkey management. Shooting 4-6 year olds from prides is removing your breeding stock.

Two example of old lions with reasonable manes (i.e. not MGM's) is 1- ForrestB's lion shown in this thread and this one:



Compared to an old MGM lion:



Happy hunting!

Bwanamitch,

All the lions were taken in Tanzania, and all with Boetie as I have stated before.

I am not trying to debate you personally, but since you are not a PH I would question your knowledge against those of other PHs who hunt lion for a living.

This collection from hunts with Boetie is probably the most impressive taken by one hunter in modern Africa.

Even you stated- "Experience! The only way you can accurately tell the age of a lion is by analising the teeth. Obviously you can't do this when the animal is not immobilised (dead or tranquilised) so in the field Ph's use "experience". If you see enough lions of different ages in your life, you eventually get a good feel for their age!"

Now are you telling me that you are aging all of these cats from the pictures alone, and that you have more experience than a PH who has been hunting lion (and quite successfully) for over 18 years.

The topic of this thread was "best lion in Africa" I have stated what in my opinion is the best, and I have supported it with pretty good evidence.

Out of curiousity, where did the lion come from that you keep posting? South Africa? It is mighty big of people to say "I would only shoot this, and under these circumstances, etc.." Have you not ever taken an animal that was not exceptional, but rather because it was a symbol of an amazing hunt or experience?

Sincerely,
John Barth
www.ausafaris.com

John, that is a most impressive collection of lion. I think SBT's questions has been answered. Bill

Hello Guys

Well everyone certainly has an opinion, so here is mine, and let me firstly say that I am a Full Time PH and Photographic Safari guide. But I will admit that Ihave hunted all of the Big Five except Lion, for some reason they just look more gracefull alive than dead, not meaning I have never hunted one just that I have not seriously tried yet.

And here comes the rub, I love cats especially Lion so I try to spend as much time watching and taking spools of photgraphs of them ,the attached photo is on my last photo safari in the Kalahari desert, clients went apeshit when I tracked this one down for a photo op

Walter

" Keep the powder dry and the guns loaded "

Hi again

Seems that I need to learn how this damn computer works before I start seding stuff I am attempting to add the photos again

Sorry can someone tell me how do I copy a photo from Photdraw to theis message

Walter

A good question to ask is when these Lions were killed....what year...

We shot some really good Lions in the Masai steepe this year and have shot some awsome lions in the Moyowasi...I would say a good golden maned Lion is always to be had in the Masai Steepe where we hunt, but a full black maned lion is a thing of the past for the most part regardless of what some will tell you...

There are some good Lions in the selous but they are rare with manes of any size..Size wise they are big by anyones standards..

My choice would be the Masai steepe with my Tanzania safari company..You will get a good maned Lion with him in the Masai...as well as a great Leopard...I love those Tanzania Leopards.

Kwan: I agree with your sentiments about cats.
I like cats better then most people. And the big ones are incredibly spectacular, at close range, alive.
gs

I have some good Lion hunts in both Tanzania and Zimbabwe. HHK has great Lions, many with huge manes, at Lemco, but they have a small quota and are currently booked through 2006 for Lion at Lemco.

Here is my opinion, although I'm not a hair stylist:

Lion # 2 - Afros are out, dude. And anyway his is way too messy, needs a hedgetrimming.
Lion # 4 - Clearly this lion has had hair implants. Disqualified.
Lion # 5 - This cat is just trying to impress the chicks, but come on, his weave is falling out. He should join the Hair Club for Lions.
Lion # 7 - Would be a real looker if his part were just a little straighter.
Lion # 8 - Would look better with a nice dye job and a permanent wave--or maybe some cornrows.
Lion # 11 - I definitely see hair spray residue on this one. I think it's Aqua Net. Also disqualified.
Lion # 13 - This fellow could definitely use some product. Maybe some gel?
Lion # 14 - Damned nice hair on this one. He must use the same barber as Bill Clinton.
Lion # 17 - As # 5 above
Lion # 18 - This lion is okay, but is clearly having a bad hair day. Should maybe look in the mirror before he leaves the bathroom in the morning.
Lion # 20 - Looks like Farrah Fawcett on Charlie's Angels. Feathercuts are way too '70s.
Lion # 22 - Just who in the hell are you trying to fool? Don't try to put one over on me. That's a rug. I've seen better toupes in Miami. Disqualified.
Lion # 24 - Sideburns are way too long.
Lion # 25 - Looks like his mama cut his hair with a soup bowl and a blowtorch.
Lion # 26 - Too punk. I think I see some chartreuse in there. Does he have piercings, too?
Lion # 27 - Is that a DA? Man, that style went out in the '50s!
Lion # 28 - This cat is cool, but scruffy. I'm sure he would have blow dried and brushed out his mane if he had known he was going to be shot and photographed that day.

Final score: All fashion rejects but one. The others are definite candidates for complete makeovers. I know a good shop in Johannesburg. Have Boetie drop me a line.

[ 11-16-2003, 21:56: Message edited by: mrlexma ]

JCBarth,
It is true I am not a PH but believe me, as a guide I have seen enough lions in my life to be able to judge a mature lion from an aged lion Notice my referral to "aged" and "mature" - very different!

My conclusions on your lion photos is my opinion but mirrors that of some very experienced PH's and lion reasearchers that I was fortunate enough to share this discussion with.

I can assure you that the chances of success on ANY male 4-5 year old lion in some of the better areas in Tanzania provided a client dedicates his/her time to hunting them can be very close to 100%! Boetie's record proves that The topic however, was asking for the "Best" lions in Africa!

In my pre-requisite for a shootable lion I gave myself parameters which I strongly believe one should adhere to when it comes to hunting lions. Of course there are other factors to consider but as a guideline, they hold true! You cannot tell me that shooting a pride male from a pride with young cubs is a good thing to do? Im not implying that is what Boetie does/did but you questioned my pre-requisites.

I have shot animals that did not have an outstanding trophy but had character. None of these had anything to do with what you call "....an amazing hunt or experience?". The "amazing hunt or experience" always comes after the fact and I wouldn't start the hunt for any animal unless I was satisfied with the trophy it would produce - in simple terms, I wouldn't shoot a young lion simply because the hunt for it was "amazing".

The lion picture I posted was taken in Tanzania this past August by a PH friend of mine.

Mrlexma:

Happy hunting!