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Say it ain't so, Joe. Say it ain't so. THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
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The Laws of Probability suggest that it is a 489,234 to one chance of surviving 25 years of DG hunting using a push feed.  465H&H | |||
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Dan lent me Thomsons book, and he did indeed love the 458, but remember he grew up using such underwheling ctgs as the 9.5 mauser and 10.3 mauser as I recall? someone w the book can set me straight here but he started out with lilttle more than obsolete or obsolescent ctgs, and the 458 was quite a revelation. Later in life when he could afford it he did prefer the 470 double I think, but founf them largely similar. For what its worth I shot some early 1980's 458 Remington and it actually had more velocity and penetration than new Federal. Miracles do happen! PS I wonder how many GI's worry about having a push feed M40 sniper rifle? Bolt over base is most common malfunction if you get excited. Andy | |||
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I suspect in many cases the game rangers used what was available. Someone up the line had to make the decision what rifles/calibers were affordable and also had available ammunition. Hence, the cheap American 458 WM. Whether the 458 WM was sufficient was probably a secondary effect compared to the rangers' first hand skill and experience, where a shot well-placed may have overcome possible ballistic shortcomings. At least for the guys that survived. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Andy, Thomson used DRs in various 450 and larger calibres from time to time and still preferred the 458wm. He also used the 375H&H on occasion and didn't think it was enough. Harland had similar experiences and also preferred the 458wm over DRs. I took special note of their preferences since I prefer a DR. Remember that a 450NE shoots a 480gr solid at a claimed 2150fps, out of a 28" barrel. Not that many rifles had 28" barrels and in the feild velocities were by and large lower. For example, Graeme Wright, in his book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" relates that most DR's regulate at a velocity from 75 to 100fps slower than the quoted velocities for the round they are chambered for. So actual performance of the factory loaded (at 2040-2050fps) 458wm isn't really different. Harland in his book "Ndlovu" found his ammo running at 2040fps if I recall, and thats with a 500gr solid rather than a 480gr solid. Also, as I recall, Thomsom found his ammo running 2050fps, again with 500gr solids. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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JPK, The most amazing photo or drawing in Thomasons book is of him standing on top of a dead elephant shooting another in the head from behind. the guy was young and enthusiasitc! As will said, shot palcement made alot of difference and a winchester mod 70 that cycled and shot every time was a revelation. Andy | |||
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Andy, Apparently the Mannlicher and FN's 458's were good as well. Either Thomson or Harland used and loved a Mannlicher, I think it was Harland. The other used an FN, IIRC, but it took two trips to the gunsmith to feed flawlessly. Shot placement still makes the difference, no matter what you're shooting, DR or bolt, 375 or 458 or Lott or 470 or... But bigger can't hurt, if you can shoot it. I'm looking forward to rereading the books this summer. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Harland shot a Mannlicher, as you SHOULD know from watching Buzz's video, if not the book. He claims it was the four round magazine what was required (I'd vote for that too). Not to spoil it, but he also acquired a 505 Gibbs, but you'll have to relay the results compared to the 458 WM, because I've forgotten and may not re-read for a bit.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will. I recall photos of the Gibbs, but, like you, I don't recall his comparison of performance between the 458 and the 505. Had to have been a noteworthy performance gain. Like I said, looking forward to rereading the books. I'll pass on any fun descriptions of the performance difference that I find in the book. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I think Macs post sums things up nicely. In this day and age, I would need a compelling reason not to go with the Lott simply due to its lower case pressure.. Regards, Pete | |||
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Richard likes the .458 for elephant but carries the .505 for follow up on buff. | |||
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My .458 is one of the earlier "classic" safari express made in New Haven, CT. Is this action long enough to just run a Lott reamer through? I may be wrong, but I don't think this action is as long as my pre 64 300 H&H. | |||
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PeteE, I will guess you read my post in Big Bores. IMO, low chamber pressure is a moot point so long as peak pressure is within either US and Euro specs and the rifle functions in any weather. A bare minimum of care is required today to keep a chamber clean and free of pitting, been that way for decades. Again no problems with 2150 or even 2200fps with a 458wm, so long as the right powder is used, and this well under book Max loads, at least in my rifle. Easy to surpass typical 450 NE velocity, and with a 500 grain bullet. Try loading for a 458wm, you too will find the armchair critics full of baloney. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Love those nickel plated Selous plates on that .505 Gibbs. Thanks be to Nickudu for posting that. I wish someone who knows the original .505 Gibbs magazine box width of those 70 rifles built by Gibbs for .505 would comment: Width at front of box, and width at rear of box??? Did Gibbs do the .505 Gibbs magazine box dimensions correctly by Mauser-Stagger-Cosine Law? | |||
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Nickudu, thanks for the link. Excellent as usual. | |||
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JPK, I don't doubt the effectiveness of the .458WM with todays powders and bullets, especially from a handloaders point of view, but if the .458wM is good, I see the Lott as just a little better. All other things being equal, I still prefer the idea of the slightly lower case pressure of the Lott whether its a moot point or not... Personally, as good as the .458WM is, if a person was choosing from scratch, I just can't see the reason for choosing .458wm over the Lott, if given a choice in comparable rifles. Thats not knocking the .458WM but simply noting the little extra case capacity offered by the Lott.. Regards, Pete | |||
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PeteE, Yes, I agree with you, for the most part. If I were building a custom rifle, I beleive I would have to go with the Lott for all the reasons you mention. But I would snatch up a good second hand 458wm if I found one that suited me for quality and fit, and then I'd leave it alone. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Yes my big bore repetaer will be a 505 Gibbs thats for sure. | |||
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Terry Irwin also preffered the 458 to all else. He never revealed his total no. of ele, but by the sounds it was a tremendous number. His rifle was a custom mann in .458. Oddly enough, something about the way he cycled the bolt, he couldnt keep the cartridges to stay in the magazine of a mauser, including W.R. and other custom built guns, so the mann. was his choice. | |||
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No doubt that a good cz 458lott provides a bit more versatility ,thats why my next rifle will be a cz 458lott ,but i would never sell my loved mauser 1909 458winch ,it never failed ,its a barrel of only 20 inches ,and is just perfect for injured water buffalos in the long grass swamps of Corrientes and Formosa,so if you like the 458lott as i like it ,dont say that the old 458winch doesnt work ,we only need excuses to buy more rifles thats the true .Juan www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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