Perhaps this is a topic of interest. I have thought about it quite a bit.

I have some great old rifles with open sights, that have not been drilled and tapped for optics, and never will be- to preserve their original provenance.

To get the opinion of people who hunt often, I have mentioned hunting with open sights with a couple of PHs and they were a little leery, but said, yes, if you like, why not.

I would like to tap the opinions of you guys on the forum.

Obviously, this is not for oryx in the desert, or shots of 200 yards on sprinbuck.

Yet, most of my shots in four trips have been 50 to 150 yards on non DG.

I also acknowledge that certain DG should always, or nealry always, be hunted open sights.

I think I am interested in this as something new to try, to use some rifles, and instead of switching to black powder or bows, a chance to hunt some of the same animals again with a new twist e.g. plains game in the bushveld.

I think it will call for more close stalking. I also wonder of it will be a better experience, by eliminating worrying about optics, fussing with magnifications, etc., and a more old style, pure hunting experience. More point and shoot, which will be more challenging and perhaps develop skill.

I spent some time with Dries Visser, Sr., who talked about the "old days". He said optics only became popular when people had to start paying for game, and paying for misses. Now, no one wants to miss, or wound and lose an animal, but in the old days, say 40 years, ago "game was free, and if we missed, there were many other opportunities, plentiful game available".

Well, if this is of interest to anyone, or if you have done it. I am interested in hearing from you.

I have a buff hunt next month, and the PH said the first shot should be with optics. He said you have more opportunity to take a longer shot with optics, and therefore more flexibility to get the buff you want, which may be standing far off, without the opportunity to stalk closer.

I suspect the best answer is "if you want to try it, are aware of the potential disappointments, including wounding an animal you otherwise would not have (with optics), then go ahead.

So what do you think?

My personal opinion is that you should hunt with what works best for you. At one time, my eyes were very good, and I was a good shooter with open sights. That is no longer the case. I depend upon scopes to clear things up for me, and I have confidence shooting with a scope that I don't have with iron sights. For me, a low power scope makes sense even for dangerous game.

First off open sights are great if your eyes can deal with them.When I was 18 I had an O3A3 that I shot well out to 400 yards with open sights.I also shot my H&K 91 with open sights on many a ground hog.

Well times they do change.I'm 46 years old I no longer have that 03A3 and the H&K 91 was last shot eight years ago.I would feel comfortable shooting under 100 yards with open sights now that I have glasses,but peeps on the reciever are a bit hard with the bificals.

My.416 remington has quick detach rings,yet I very seldom shoot the open sights.Its 1.25x4 scope can be turned down to 1.25 power and used as an optical sight with both eyes open.

As far as dangerous game goes the sights out on the quarter rib of a double are not a problem.At 50 yards or less if you cant make the shot you should not be hunting.

Since we are just offering suggestions, may I suggest mounting the scope of choice with a detachable mount of your choice, that will allow you to us your open sights when you will.

I have my DG rifle set up that way but it is more for a backup scope than the use of iron sights.

I'm blessed with good eye sight for my older years and still hunt often with open sights, but I have never felt handicapped using my Leupold 1.5 x 5 turned down to the 1.5 power.

Everything is a trade off and it's amazing what one can get use too when determined to make it work. My take...........Bob

For me I don't think open sights do anything better and I have used a scope almost exclusively for 25 years but that is not the discussion. If you want to hunt with your unscoped rifles go for it. It is your safari so make it the hunt you want. I know a guy that has shot about everything in Africa with a centerfire and now is doing it over again with an original 12 bore muzzle loader. He says it has almost completely changed his experience of safari. I can believe that!

Mark

You should use a scope. Better shot placement than open sights, which is the fundamental requirement with buff.

Doing "whatever you want to" sounds good on the internet but if you shoot the damn thing in the leg and somebody gets hammered the "open-sight" crowd will be hard to find.

From what I hear most just barely get by with a scope. If you don't want to tap one of your rifles buy another one that is.

I havn't had much to do with DG, but plains game in the bushveld with open sights brings back some good memories.A few years back I shot truckloads of reed buck, stalking them in the vlei in tall grass with an underlever .22 savage with open sights, now that was great fun.

If you are confident with your abilities to shoot open sights, then go for it. Personally I would rather hunt with a scope, but would hunt with open sights as long as it was close shooting (less than 100yds.).

Seconding what Thornell said. If you can routinely hit a 6" disk with your irons at your likely safari shooting distance, then go for it.

There are a couple optical houses that will build glasses with tall lenses. They will put an insert at the top of your "shooting eye" lens so that your front site is in focus. I use that for pistol shooting.

In bright light even our older eyes will stop down small enough that we can see sharply (like a pin-hole camera). At dawn and dusk, or under a thick canopy of foliage old eyes just don't work very well.

I used to love hunting with a Mannlicher style Sako with a peep sight and 20" barrel. Now I just use a scope if there is any likelihood of dim lighting conditions.

In the sunshine I can still back up people on bison with the "v" notch and small gold bead that came on my CZ 416 Rigby.

With practice and a peep sight you can hit a grapefruit off-hand a 100 yards, and supported out to 200 yards.

The Sako peep sight is marvelous because you can twist the peep and it clicks from a 100 meter to a 200 meter setting.

LD

Other then on a 22 target rifle, I never used open sights until about 16 years ago when I started hunting in Africa with a big bore double rifle. I was surprised as it seems in the field I was able to shoot as well up to 125 yds. with open sights as I could with a scope. My eyes are to the getting very old category but are still good enough for open sights.

465H&H

I am young, have fairly good eyes, and rarely ever hunt with open sights. I can; I just don't like to.

Use whichever suits you best. But - it pays to be proficient with both. Just in case...

Interesting topic. I have used a scope exclusively on rifle hunting for 40+ years, then started hunting dangerous game. First with a detachable-scoped bolt, and now with a double rifle that also has a detachable scope. Never have used the scope so far. But shots up to 100 yards are very doable with open sights, and are kind of akin to bowhunting. i.e. part of the challenge is that if the game is too far, you must move closer.

Having a scope does help me to better be able to tell where the animal is likely hit, and a scope also helps a great deal in trying to find an opening in brush to shoot through. Also as my eyes have aged, I have much more trouble picking up the front sight in all but brilliant sunshine.

So, for my plains game rifle, I use a scope. But for buffalo and elephant, I've very much enjoyed hunting them relatively close.

After all, it's your hunt and if you are willing to pass up the longer shots for a chance to use open sights, more power to you!!

Use open sights if you are shooting well with it up to 100yards. If not, get closer and accept that you will limit your oppertunies when coming on safari. I use my 8x57 with open sights regularly for the extra challenge on plains game. My DG backup gun, a .450 Rigby, will never wear a scope, and although it is primerally a backup gun, I also use it when I personally hunt DG.

I had never used a 'scope for hunting game until five years ago. All my hunting rifles are fitted with ghost ring reciever sights (the parker hale one that replacvce the cocking piece on mausers are fantastic as you don't have to alter the rifle to fit them). For local conditions that is adequate. I have't shot anything over the 80 yard mark in years in Zim and over 120 yards in the kalahari.

That said, My eyesight isn't what it used to be and for night control work or leopard a scope is essential. In fact, having started using one, I wonder how I ever got by without it!

If you are going to use the excuse of open sights as a force to make you hunt hunder and get closer- great. But like handgun or walk and stalk bowhunting, appreciate that it may cost you a shot at a trophy or two. Not that this should spoil a hunt!

go with the open sights. most of my hunting has been done that way for the past several years. it adds to the hunt to me because it forces me to hunt better. i know that my shots will have to be limited to 100 yards and that's the way i like it. i want to be as close to the game as possible and most of the time my shots are well under 100 yards......actually the majority areunder 50 yards. i've only been on one safari so far (zim in 2004 my 18 yr old son and i took a buff and an impala each)and i took only one rifle. it had only open sights. the rifle was a ruger #1 405 win and i equipped it with an NECG peep that fits in the ruger scope rings slot and one of thier replacement white beads. this combo works about perfect although the aperture in the peep could stand to be a little bigger.

Ah the age old question are you a hunter or a shooter. I have friends here in PA that debate this on and on. It is usually inregard to Groundhog - some say anything over 50 yds is just shooting (they are the hunters) and others say anything under 200 yds is hunting. To each his own said the old man as he kissed the cow.

My first safari was with a scoped .375, the second with a peep-sight on a .450 Rigby and a scoped .300 H&H. Last trip I took two peep-sighted vintagers, a .318 and a .404. This trip I'm not fully decided but will likely carry the .404. Outside of the Kalahari and Ethiopia I fail to see any advantage to scoped rifles in Africa. But then, perhaps I've just been lucky. No, don't scope the veterans.

To the extent that military combat is analogous to dangerous game hunting, a noteworthy development has been the extent to which the US military has adopted the use of optical sights for combat troops.

I am seriously considering sticking with open sites on my 470 Mbogo for my trip to Tanz this September. I have a Leupold 1-4x for it, but have never had any trouble hitting stuff with it with open sites, out to 100yds or so. I like carrying it in my hand or on my shoulder and a scope makes that less comfortable.

I'll get it ready with scope and detachable mounts and decide once and for all when I get there. If the shots are looking long-ish for whatever reason, I am sure I'll be glad to have the scope.

My 416T backup rifle will be wearing a 2-7x Leupold for sure.

Cheers,
Canuck

ease of carry and good handing are yet another plus of the open sighted rifle and i consider scoping any double blasphemous.....but that's just me

After walking, climbing and running you have a monster buff 120 yards away, you barely see his shoulder through the bush, adrenalin pumping...
Personally I will not be able to put the front bead on him without covering the only spot I see from him....

I'm with Will, a scoped rifle will be better for my wallet and also safer for the rest of the crew

L

quote:

Originally posted by degoins:
ease of carry and good handing are yet another plus of the open sighted rifle and i consider scoping any double blasphemous.....but that's just me

No it aint just you, I agree one hundred percent!

I like hunting with both. But the older I get the more I depend on the scope. However, I do have a double rifle and some heavy magnums that are not and will not be scoped. I just sent my double rifle off to the factory where they are installing a red Hi Viz front sight that was specifically manufactured for the double. In putting on the new front sight they make sure that it is regulated for the new sight, so it costs a couple of bucks to have done, but will be well worth it on the return trip this year for ele, hippo, etc. I would like to put something on the front sight of my Ruger .458 Lott since I have not scoped it and don't plan on doing so. Having a highly visible front bead would do wonders. I don't know why someone hasn't put one together by now. I called Hi-Viz and they said that they are working with Ruger and thought that it might be a good idea. I said that it certainly would be considering all of us older baby boomers in the prime of our hunting lives.

UEG

Those big elephant bulls near the border giving you nightmares?

Brad

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Soooo it's ok to hunt DG with open sights when using doubles but not when using bolt guns?

Methinks you are all full of shit !

I mean if you listen to everyone on AR you dare not set foot in Africa without a double when hunting DG and now there is a further limitation regarding what sights and when.

I justs sprayed my computer screen w/ coffee from laughing so hard!!!!

Thanks ALF!!!!!!



Gary

quote:

I have some great old rifles with open sights, that have not been drilled and tapped for optics, and never will be- to preserve their original provenance.

From someone who has used open sights only for many years, a big thumbs up. Somehow, I find scoped rifles "top heavy" and poorly balanced, but then, I just might have prehistoric tastes.

My only hunting rifle at the moment, a Mauser with folding leaf sights, works with no trouble at all and a good friend's son who had never shot an open sighted rifle before, took to it like a duck to water with no difficulty at all.

I guess many people don't shoot open sighted rifles because of the fear of the unknown, having used scoped rifles for most of their shooting lives. It is fun if someone tries it.

Cheers!

Imo hunting with open sights for the first shot on game other than Elephant is a disadvantage but so is hunting with a bow.
I still enjoy hunting wth an open sighted double on game from rabbits to Ele but understand the limitations.

I think you should try it with open sights. Obviously you are an experienced hunter and know when to to say when on shot opportunities.
You have been there done that so to speak. You don't have all the pressure to have success. You are looking for challenge and fun of the hunt.

Practice a whole bunch, get comfortable and have fun.

Life is divided into pre-presbyopic vision and presbyopic vison; about half and half.

This issue is not a moral one, hello. At or about the age of forty-three our lenses (which grow throughout our lives) become too big for our eye muscles and suspension system to make them accomadate (change focus).

A rifle scope provides our eye with the illusion of a focus on infinity, or thereabouts.

If your eyes can use iron sights and you like hunting that way, great.

If they can't accomplish that feat of focusing, we now have the option of truly wonderful optics. That is great as well.

If, like me, you pine for the days when we could use irons willy nilly, well, lets have a short pity party and then get over it. (Or hunt on bright and sunny days.)

LD

Excellent open sights from Krieghoff

quote:

Originally posted by Sunshine:
Excellent open sights from Krieghoff

If I've learned one thing from Will's great book, its that I wouldn't squeeze the trigger on that sight picture. Ele's head is on an angle and the bead is too low.

Did I pass Will?

Cheers,
Canuck

Thanks to all for the comments.

Quite to "all star" line-up of responders!

I guess I can say my eyes are fine, my close in vision is very good, just need glasses to see distances.

I will keep you posted on my decision and how it turns out.

Canuck,

You are so observant! A+

404Jeffery,

If I remember correctly, there was this guy that went hunting in Tanz in 2005 with about a dozen or so buff on license. Never could get closer than 100+ yards. The buff were in a lot of thick grass. Oh yea, it was Saeed!

How many guys can in truth shoot buff at long distance with open sights? All this baloney sounds like the typical story of the unsuccessful hunt.

The PH was terrible, there was no game, I never had a chance, the big complaint on the internet upon the return from the hunt.

I have no desire to go to Africa and "turn down" the only decent chance at a buff because I limited myself to open sights. I wonder how many people would invest all that time and money and only shoot under these supposed ideal conditions? And come home without a buff, and not whine about it?

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Life is divided into pre-presbyopic vision and presbyopic vison; about half and half.

LD

Lawndart,

It is very easy for an optician to make you a pair of progressive addition spectacles using a faster progression from your distance vision to your near vision addition depending on the distance the sights are located on your gun. My family's business in India sells a lot of spectacles to older shooters fitting them with spectacles that allow them to shoot open sighted guns. I am certain that if this could be done in a backward country like India, it could be done very easily in the USA as you have the Zeiss custom lenses available here. In India they have to work with Shamir, Hoya, AO and other less sophisticated designs.

It probably is a lot more easy to use a scope then to go through the toruble of getting a pair of spectacles made for shooting alone, though. If someone wants to do this, presbyopia is not a restriction at all. I am old enough to have presbyopia, have the additional burden of Graves disease on my eyes and still shoot open sighted rifles with no trouble because I want to.

Cheers!

While I had shot deer and small game with open sights on a handgun, the only game I had killed in my life with open sights were 2 deer with a Winchester Trapper 30-30.....
Until I got my doubles. I started out hunting on a place that had a nuisance amount of skunks and armidillos. So every weekend durring turkey season I would take my 450 No2 and my 450/400 3 1/4", and shoot 50 rounds from each double at "them critters" or at rocks cactus etc.
Then I shot a bear in Montana with the 400.
I bought a 9,3x74R double rifle. I shot deer, pigs, turkey, coyote and varmints, all with iron sights. I took the 400 to Alaska and shot 2 caribou. I shot 2 bears, one in Canada, one in Idaho with the 9,3. I shot several more deer and wild pigs with the 3 rifles all with iron sights.
I shot 2 buff and 3 elephants with iron sights in Zimbabwe.
I have learned this... IF you practice, [best on game animals at the deer lease] with the iron sights you may be suprised at how well you can do. The key is practice.
Now at distances 50 yards and under I prefer iron sights, especially on Dangerous Game.
My longest shots have been deer with the 450 No2 at 85 yards, caribou at 85 and 150 with the 400, and elephant at 120 with the 450 No2.
You never know what you are capable of until you PRACTICE.

When/if I get to the point that I cannot use iron sights effectively I will scope my 450/400 3 1/4" with a 1to4 scope and go hunting.
My 9,3 double has a scope and it makes it a GREAT hunting rifle. A scope on a double does EXACTLY the same thing it does for a bolt rifle, makes it easier to AIM.
You still have to "hold and squeeze".

If you're comfortable with them, go with express sights, especially on the large bores.

I used scopes exclusively until I switched to doubles 18 years ago. All of my doubles have been British and all came with superb express sights. Like 465H&H, I was amazed at the precision they gave. I've had vision problems all of my life, and presbyopia caught up with me 10 years ago. It's severe now. I can still shoot as well with the express sights on these rifles as I ever could.

I think the problems some people have with express sights have mostly to do with the poor quality of the sights, not their vision. I've never seen good express sights on a factory rifle that was not British. I'm not a Brit snob, nor am I not knocking rifles from other countries, just their sights. Good ones are expensive and can't be ordered from a gunsmiths supply catalog. All express sights aren't created equal and there's a big difference between the good ones and the junk, on the range and in the field. I've never handled a double from Searcy, Chapuis, Krieghoff, Heym or Merkel that I wouldn't have changed the sights on. The sights on some of them, like the Merkel, aren't even of the express type.

The the most common mistake I see guys make, especially on the larger bores, is the choice of bead. The idea that sights are automatically inferior to a scope for shooting beyond 50 yards is bullshit, but if you choose an Idaho baking potato for a front bead, it's perfectly true. If you install a bead larger than .080" or so, go ahead and scope it, because you've given up on sights.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Open sights exclusively are definitely not a means of increasing one’s odds at getting a shot.

But for those that chose open sights as a discipline – much like bow hunters accept their self-imposed limitations dictated by their equipment choice and chose to work within those parameters – I too can accept one’s choice of open sights exclusively and appreciate the challenge they have taken to task.

None of that, however, changes my first point.

It appears that the comfort range of using open sights by those that post here ranges from 25 yds to something a little over 100 yds. Others are not comfortable using open sights at any range. In reality the only place that open sights are an advantage is in the jess when hunting dangerous game. When was the last time you saw a PH tackling elephant or buffalo in thick jess with a scope sighted rifle? Sure it happens but it is a definate rariity. Maybe the professionals know something about protecting their clients, trackers and themselves that we should emulate.

Part of the reluctance to use an open sighted rifle in the jess or long grass arises from a lack of confidence on the part of the hunter to accurately place their shot. That lack of confidence is usually because of lack of practice with open sights, inability to focus on sights and animal at the same time due to poor vision or our natural loss of focusing ability as we age. Another reason is using target shooting open sight techniques in a hunting situation. In the target technique we are taught to look at the sights and make sure that they are properly aligned , front and back, then place the sight on the target and squeeze. Always focus on the front sight, we are taught. Good for targets but in my opinion too slow for hunting. No one can focus on the target and see the front and rear sights clearly. If your young and have excellent vision you may be able to see the front and rear sights clearly but the target will be out of focus. If the target is in focus then the sights will be blurred. I know, I know, you can with a peep sight but here we are talking about an opren sight preferably a wide british V sight.

I have very good long distance vision but at my age, my close focusing ability has long gone. I still can shoot open sights very well, good enough to be confident in the thick jess with an enraged elephant. Here is my technique;

I don't try to focus on on sights and animal at the same time. I focus on the place I want my bullet to impact and let the sights blur. In fact I look through the sights and am only vaguely aware of how they line up. I know what your thinking "This guy is certifiable!". For this technique to work your rifle has to fit you perfectly or at least close enough that you can adjust your cheek position to assure that when you raise your rifle the sight will align perfectly where you are looking. You look through the sights at your target, squeeze and hit your target. Now you have to practice this technique to do two things. One to get use to looking through your sights and second to gain the confidence that you will hit what you are looking at. Try it and you may be surprised at how well and quickly you can place that shot.

465H&H