I know this is not answering the original question exactly, but...

In my limited experience a scoped .375 combined with a .470 double has been ideal. Carry the double and have a tracker cary the .375.

The best thing about scopes is that you can "see through" heavy bush with them.

Enjoy your safari whatever you decide!

Brett

Brett: Thank you. That is EXACTLY what I do.

Ditto,

My set up precisely.

A scoped M-70 and a .470NE. If the hunting conditions prove to be to tricky for the .470 I carry the .375 and visa versa. Not a big deal and all the bases are covered.

I'd never shot a scoped rifle until I was about 16 years old. I am very comfortable with iron sights, always have been.

And I still hunt primarily with iron sights today. I do not limit my shots to 100 yards in fact I've become quite proficient at much further ranges than that with an open sighted rifle.

The secret is practice, practice, practice. Like a previous poster mentioned after a while aiming becomes almost a subconscious act with a well fit often used rifle. I believe the term I'm looking for is aiming becomes instinctual after a period.

Will, mentioned that if "A hunter was to shoot a buff in the leg when using iron sights,,and then somebody got swated etc etc."

Well I know nore than one hunter that has wounded buffalo or elephant or lions or leopards with scoped rifles. Does the same apply? Should they run away in shame because they were using an "evil" aiming device on their rifle?

In fact I'd venture to say that more DG animals are wounded every year by a factor of ten with scoped rifles as they are so much more common than iron sighted rifles.

I'd also have to guess that most hunters who are using iron sighted rigs tend to be more experinced shooters and hunters than scoped rifle users.

It's your hunt, so as long as you're proficient with your rifle then go do it... Obviously there will be shots you'll have to pass on or you'll have to really "hunt" to get that shot but that makes it that much more of a challenge.

I personally don't like scoped rifles - too top heavy and cumbersome, I prefer a trim, slender rifle with open or ghost ring sights - but I do know they definitely have their place so a couple of my rifles are scoped for just those environments.

Saeed has been on many more hunts than just about any of us. He routinely advises a 2.5x8 scope (I like my 1.75x6) even for elephant. His point is that many shots are through narrow openings in brush, and the scope gives you a better chance of seeing the twigs crossing your lane 80 yards away. I believe he is right after my two trips to Africa.

I used to shoot iron sight competition out to 1000 yards. It's a whole different ball game when all shots are perfect setups.

I do use QD mounts, so if I need DG backup capability or have to go into the thick stuff after a wounded buff I can go to iron sights.

But for trophy hunting I'll stick to a good scope.

i'm bosrd hunting with a scope, so I'm using iron sites on my next elephant hunt.

I took the 1-5x5 Leupold off my .375 H&H because it added a little more bulk than I wanted for climbing up and down the steep forest land where I hunt. So, I installed an XS aperature sight. On testing hitting ability, I found exactly zero difference out to 300 yards, and the big rifle became much handier through the brush. Out at about 500 yards I held the front bead over the top of the rear ghost ring hole and with a little practice found hits as easy as with the scope. Personaly, I have found that as with most tech advancements with anything, less is better. Granted trying to thread a bullet between twigs becomes more of a challenge, but I will continue to use the ghost ring with all my rifles with a velocity under about 2,500 fps. Just picked up a little sporterized 8x57 in a 98 Mauser, with an old steel Redfield apperature set up. With a scope mounted, it would not interest me in the least, but as it is; it's perfect!

This is another interesting post for me. I turn 50 this year and have always enjoyed shooting opens or peeps for most of my hunting. I am starting to get the "fuzzy" front sight syndrome and have been compensating by going to ghost rings in some rifles. I don't know what to do about my handguns. This information is good! thanks all!

I used to have extremely good eye sight, and ave used open sights on rifles to shoot very well.

But, once I have tried scopes, no matter how good you think you are with opn sights, a scope will improve your shooting.

I have been hunting in Africa since 1982, an ave always used scopes.

In fact, my rifles do no have open sights.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Open sights exclusively are definitely not a means of increasing one’s odds at getting a shot.

But for those that chose open sights as a discipline – much like bow hunters accept their self-imposed limitations dictated by their equipment choice and chose to work within those parameters – I too can accept one’s choice of open sights exclusively and appreciate the challenge they have taken to task.

None of that, however, changes my first point.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
On testing hitting ability, I found exactly zero difference out to 300 yards, Out at about 500 yards I held the front bead over the top of the rear ghost ring hole and with a little practice found hits as easy as with the scope.

PLEASE!
I think I need to get my hip boots on because the BS is getting deep.

When I think back to my Marine days I can recount shooting at 200m, 300m, and 500m for the basic rifle qualification.

There is no doubt that the right person can accurately shoot targets at those distances, BUT there is also no doubt that it is FAR easier with a scope.

Hunt with whatever you want to, but lets "keep it real."

KC

I am far from an expert marksman, even when using a scope, but on my last African hunt I used iron sights on both of the two rifles I had along.

One, in .500 A-Square caliber, I fired offhand inside 20 yards to kill a bull elephant. That, IMHO, is one of the best uses for iron sighted rifles in Africa - elephant hunting. Elephant are big targets - and they are almost invariably hunted and shot at close range.

I think irons are also very good for tracking or following up dangerous game animals - and, God forbid, charge stopping. But I have only faced two charges - and both times I used scope sighted rifles - so I'd be the last to say irons are necessary even for that purpose.

I have killed other game with iron sighted rifles as well, and I do enjoy hunting with them.

But scope sighted rifles are far better general purpose weapons, and I don't think anyone with any shooting and hunting experience would seriously debate that.

Fortunatly I grew up shooting iron sights and at 73 with cateracts I still use them..I am content with them up to 200 yards or so, then I like the scope..I use irons on a double and on all my bolt guns with the option of a QD scope on most of them...BTW I am having cateract surgery this month and next month, so that will be a fix..but it has not bothered me all that much as far as my shooting..the sights or the target are going to be blurred to some degree even with perfect eyesight, but it does not hurt accuracy..

The scenario with open sights today is most hunters cut their teeth on optical sights, and just can't fathom being able to shoot accurately with irons, then when they try them most are surprised how good they are, but their are those negative folks, who had their mind made up before they tried them and of course they don't work for them..I have seen this happen on more than one ocassion...If you want to shoot irons, then you can, if your eyes are bad, get shooting glasses that correct the problem and glasses are not a hinderence while shooting or hunting, thats another rumor started by folks that don't wear glasses, or they would know better.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
It appears that the comfort range of using open sights by those that post here ranges from 25 yds to something a little over 100 yds. . I know, I know, you can with a peep sight but here we are talking about an opren sight preferably a wide british V sight.

I have very good long distance vision but at my age, my close focusing ability has long gone. I still can shoot open sights very well, good enough to be confident in the thick jess with an enraged elephant. Here is my technique;

I don't try to focus on on sights and animal at the same time. I focus on the place I want my bullet to impact and let the sights blur. In fact I look through the sights and am only vaguely aware of how they line up. I know what your thinking "This guy is certifiable!". For this technique to work your rifle has to fit you perfectly or at least close enough that you can adjust your cheek position to assure that when you raise your rifle the sight will align perfectly where you are looking. You look through the sights at your target, squeeze and hit your target. Now you have to practice this technique to do two things. One to get use to looking through your sights and second to gain the confidence that you will hit what you are looking at. Try it and you may be surprised at how well and quickly you can place that shot.

465H&H

.................................................................. ........................This and............ NE 450#2 ,s post about shooting Armadillo,s with a heavy double [[[[[Still chaps me he brought a pos 300 up here to hunt grizzly with last spring ]]]]]]].....Especially considering he can shoot a double so well ........,,,,,,,,Are 2 of the best posts here imo .......Years ago I got to shoulder a 425 Westly Richards w/ 28" barrel .,., It was love at first [Express Sight ] I could not understand how easily sights could line up ... ...I now have a couple rifles that are as good or better to sight with ............In these times when it is so easy to come up with a scoped rifle ,,I see NO reason to alter an original rifle that was set up from its origins to wear express sights ......... The challenge of hunting with a large caliber express sighted rifle in every way appeals to me .. .,.,..I do not understand or agree with the bow hunt crowd ,,and the handgun hunters are in the same catagory IMO [ Because they use marginally powerful weapons]]Getting 20 feet away from a big trophy animal ,and then hitting it thru right spot with 4-6 K ftlbs of energy with a super bullet is the very peak of big game hunting to me ......You don,t need a scope for that ............................This year I will have my 9.3x64 set up with express sights for back up sights but I will look around for another" wear it out rifle "like the 300 win mag CZ550 Safari Mag .. Which was my express sight , blastin rifle ..............El cheapo .30 cal bullets and the same bolt throw /rifle weight /sight picture / and I didn,t give a hoot if I ruined the throat or rifling ect...........That rifle was turned into my .416 .. ...2 nights ago I was blasting practicing with both my .416 and .458 Lott @ 100 yards kneeling and off hand . The group was roughly 3"x 8 " .At a 14"x16" round of firewood using the truck head lights to see the target with ........I found that the more the breeze increased the more the sights fuzzed out... It was 2 degrees F....I was very pleasantly suprised at my group , considering the Lott is not muzzle broke and the 350 gr bullets were leaving at around 2600 fps .........

404, I'm the guy that bought the Jeffery from you. I'm taking my son to Zim in July, he will use an open sight 9.3 Chapuis double. I told him he has to work in close if he wants to shoot something with the open sights. He wants a wildebeast, warthog, zebra and impala. He will have to work to get what he wants but isn't that what makes it a hunt and isn't that why we really hunt. Our next trip will be with that 404 I bought from you, open sights, probably buffalo cow for him. He's only 15 so I don't want to spoil him.....
ps: He loves the rifle!!!!

I will bet ANYTHING, I can out shoot ANYONE using a scope if he is using open sights, at accurate shooting at ANY distance.

Some of the stories we get told here in our workshop are staright from the Twightlight Zone.

And some of the stories we read on these forums are not far from that either.

We had a man come in here with a "sniper" version of the AK 47. He had a no name scope on it, and he wanted a better scope.

When I asked him what does he shoot with it, he said he liked to plink at rocks and cans at very long distances.

When I asked what distances, he gave me an example of shooting at "this size" - meaning about a foot wide - rock, from his house, and the rock was "by the bridge".

The bridge is about 2 miles from his house!

Walter of course, had to get into the cat as well.

I asked if he can shoot so well with his present scope, why does he want to change it?

He said he wanted to shoot "smaller" targets, not "so far away"!

Walter and him got into a discussion of what the bench rest people use to shoot "VERY VERY TINY GROUPS" - showing him some of the one hole groups we have shot with a match 6mm PPC.

While this is going on, I installed a 45 power scope on his "sniper" rifle, and gave it back to him to sight in.

It took him ages to get started - he had difficulty getting the scope focus adjusted.

Eventually he started shooting. We left him at it, about an hour later, and several boxes of military ammo later, he came out of the shooting room, saying his rifle is adjusted accurately.

Walter had "small" targets ready for him.

He taped 22 rim fire empty cases on a piece of paper, and put them at 100 yards for him.

Several boxes of ammo later, and not one single empty case was hit!

Our champion was not deterred.

He said the lights in the tunnel were messing up his shooting, and that he never shot "so badly in his life". And would we please put his old scope back, as his eyes were hurting too.

It sounds to me like you want to bring the "hunt" back into your hunting and just don't want to go the usual route of archery/blackpowder/handgun hunting. No reason why you should let those old rifles sit lonely in the corner if you can use them to hit the same size target an archer can at the same range (or better).

The goal is not to use the best weapon, just the more interesting one and still achieve a clean kill.

FWIW I took my second buck this year with a 7x57 I built thats equiped with only iron sights. Hit him at about 50 yards and he didn't know that the bullet that killed him was launched from a rifle that couldn't shoot 1/4" groups at 100yds.

Interesting responses to my original post- did anyone notice that until today, the last posts on this thread were from February 2006!

For kicks I went to the oldest threads on AR, and they are still interesting! Good topics never die!

Gumboot

Several reasons I brought a 300 Mag up to AK to hunt Griz.

First I was told I might have to make a 300+ yard shot.

Second, I really did not want to subject a double rifle to the extreamly rough conditions of a snow mobile hunt.

I chose a Blaser R 93 Synthetic in 300 Win Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
Interesting responses to my original post- did anyone notice that until today, the last posts on this thread were from February 2006!

We need a "Back from the dead" smilie.

404wjjeffery,

Since you've had a couple of years to ponder everyone's replies did you make a decision yet?

Rick R

Interesting question. I was forced to hunt without a scope when the TSA people did not repack my scope after inspection, so I went to Namibia without. I ended up borrowing a local rifle, which was a generous offer, but the rifle was pretty beat up and didn't function a couple of times.

Namibia is the wrong place to go without a scope, I guess, because of the longer shots that presented in the area I was in. But just like a bow hunter, you can adapt your hunting to open sights.

So the short answer is no, I have wimped out so far- but still want to try it!

Having good eye sight is an obvious factor when shooting with open sights. Regardless of how damn good your eyes are, finding a path to shoot through bush and undergrowth is very difficult with open sights - I don't mean blasting thru a bush.

There is no question that a scoped rifle is much more accurate than an open sight rifle. Except for on elephant and follow up on dangerous game I would always prefer a scope.

I think you will also miss more shooting opportunities with an open sight rifle.

A friend of mine came by to go to the SCI meeting with me last night, and he brought with him a couple of vintage rifles to include an original Jeffrey 404Jeffrey built on a Mauser action dating from the 'teens. It obviously does not have a scope and I can assure you, it never will while my friend owns it. Is there anyone of us who would not gladly take this rifle on his/her next safari? I doubt it.

I have shot most of the animals I have shot in Africa and here with scoped rifles, generally with the scope on the lowest setting it has. A notable exception were a couple of baboons shot in the middle of a snow storm in the Winterberg in '96. I'd taken my scope off because it was fogging up from my breath, and used the backup Redfield receiver sight. Two shots-two dead baboons, one at a dead run about 100yds away.

The next day, when the snow stopped, just around the mountain from where the baboons expired, I had my chance at a Vaal Rhebok. It was very, very early and extremely cold. My 270 was still wearing the Redfield. I spotted the herd, and my ph told me which animal was the one to shoot. I got my rifle up and they took off. I could not separate my target from the rest of the herd. I switched rifles with my brother, who was carrying his old Sako in 7mmRM. It has a equally old 4x Leupold on it.

With the scope, I was able to separate my target as ID'd by my ph from the rest of the herd and to see my first shot hit behind him. My next shot was high and in front of him, and my third was smack on. Range was over 400yds. I could never have ID'd him without the scope, and I could never have made that shot with irons.

I think that this ability to observe and stay with an animal is perhaps the greatest advantage offered by a scope in trophy hunting. Otherwise, your ability to follow your ph's directions and get on the same animal is really impaired. Only one of the rifles with which I have regularly hunted in Africa does not have iron sights, and only one rifle that I have used in Africa does not have a scope. Kudude