I'm feeling philosophical today, so if you are interested, let me know what you think:

"At this point we arrive at the terminus, the goal of hunting itself . . . the death of the beast. Death, especially "caused" death . . . is or should be a terrifying thing. The hunter does not just come and go, working hard in valleys and on cliffs; . . . rather, in the last analysis, he kills. The hunter is a death dealer."

* * *

"To the sportsman the death of the game is not what interests him; that is not his purpose. What interests him is everything that he had to do to achieve that death--that is, the hunt. Therefore, what was before only a means to an end is now an end in itself. Death is essential because without it there is no authentic hunting: the killing of the animal is the natural end of the hunt and the goal of hunting itself, not of the hunter. The hunter seeks this death because it is no less than the sign of reality for the whole hunting process. To sum up, one does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted."

--Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting , 1942 (Prologue to Twenty Years A Big Game Hunter , Edward, Count Yebes, 1943)

"Killing cleanly and in a way which gives you aesthetic pleasure and pride has always been one of the greatest enjoyments of a part of the human race. Because the other part, which does not enjoy killing, has always been more articulate and has furnished most of the good writers, we have had a very few statements of the true enjoyment of killing. One of its greatest pleasures, aside from the purely aesthetic ones, such as wing shooting, and the ones of pride, such as difficult game stalking, where it is the disproportionately increased importance of the fraction of a moment that it takes for the shot that furnishes the emotion, is the feeling of rebellion against death which comes from its administering. Once you accept the rule of death, thou shalt not kill is an easily and naturally obeyed commandment. But when a man is still in rebellion against death, he has a pleasure in taking to himself one of the Godlike attributes; that of giving it. This is one of the most profound feelings in those men who enjoy killing. These things are done in pride and pride, of course, is a Christian sin, and a pagan virtue."

--Ernest Hemingway
Death in the Afternoon , 1932

"I like to shoot a rifle and I like to kill and Africa is where you do that."

--Ernest Hemingway
Letter to Janet Flanner, Key West, 1933

Ortega and Hemingway are both correct.

Thoughts? Comments?

Ugh.

Will,

I can see from your post here and re: Nickudu's post of the Boddington article on the best of the big five that you're not into reading this afternoon.

Just remember your Socrates:

"The unexamined life is not worth living."

Or is it the key to success? I sometimes wonder.

There is no hunting, like the hunting of armed man
Those who have hunted armed men, and liked it,
Never cared for any thing else after.

Also E.Hemingway

I started hunting squirrels when I was 10.....and hunting has been a love and passion all my 57 years.

Last July when I approached my Kudu.......(Hell, I never had the courage to dream about Africa, but there I was)...seeing those magnificient horns.....just about 50' ahead of me.....something I said was going to be added to the "shop" several years earlier.....Well, that moment was unbelievable.....it was MY DAY....I can't explain how great that was.......

And you know what?.....I really don't care why!!!....I don't want to analize it.....I like it....I could afford it...it was legal.....and I had the time of my life.

My apologies Mrlexma, I too have the philosopher spirit....,.but this is definitely one thing I'm not analizing....

I like it....I KNOW I like it.....and I'm going to continue to like it, and I don't give a damn why!!!

There....now where's that gun list?

Why I do something is always interesting to me, and something I try to figure out before I do it. I am rational and need to understand.

Not everyone is made this way. Some don't care to reflect at all as to why this or that happens, or why even they make the choices they do.

After all, we don't have to hunt. We could all just play golf. But we don't. And why we don't, or more precisely, why I don't, I think is a key to who I am. That is something that is, to me, worth thinking about.

But, as I find myself saying more and more these days, a chacun son gout--to each his own.

[ 11-16-2003, 09:51: Message edited by: mrlexma ]

Hell, to me, would be to learn that Heaven has a Golf Course.

HUNTING????????????????????????????

Hunting is not something I do, Hunting is who I am! I hunt because I'm a hunter, as man was meant to be, from the dawn of time, and he will be untill the sun fades from the sky! Man is no different from the Coyote, wolf, or the great cats of the world, and hunting is as natural to man, as it is to any other Omnivore, or carnivore!

Why anyone questions why man hunts, is beyond me!

Ah, but Mac . . . we are not simple brutes. We have big brains, opposable thumbs and use tools, among them, rifles.

And, unlike the other predators you mention, we don't have to hunt wild game to live. We eat our kills, of course, but we hunt mainly as a sport. Like Nickudu, the so-called pleasures of golf are completely lost on me. My favorite sport is hunting, and it's a blood sport, with a lot of killing involved. But I don't think of myself as sadistic or bloodthirsty by any stretch of the imagination.

I just love big game hunting and do it as often as I can. When I'm not doing it, I'm making plans to do it again soon. You're right that we are predators and have hunted since time immemorial, but, as I said, we don't need to do it any longer to put food on the table.

So, why we do it is interesting to me. I'm not sure I know why I do it. It's something I love and maybe there's a mystery there that can't be solved. But I'll keep thinking about it, I'm sure, until I figure it out or die, whichever comes first.

mrlexma:

I realized early on that I loved to hunt. I loved the action of stalking, taking the shot, making the shot... and the skill that goes into it.
Plus, I love firearms, shooting, and the time, effort, and expertise that it takes to become proficent with such weapons.

The only part I don't like is the killing. I think Mac is right, that we all have a very strong
hunting instinct, from our genes, because that is how man survived since the start of time.

Trying to eradicate this instinct, like others we have, is very difficult(the one that really comes to mind is our current society's tabu on young, 12-14 year olds having sex, when people have been getting married, or having children at that age since the beggining of time).

I tolerate, respect, and understand, others need to kill, because I have the same, I just respect the beauty God has given us with His creations, the animals, so much that I want them to continue to live, provided they allow me the same luxury.

The memory of beautiful animals, in zoos, in the wild, etc. are things I treasure.

Most of my life has been spent chasing waves. This is a competition between surfers to outsmart the other surfers, and get into the proper position to catch every changing waves, always breaking in a slightly different place, with different characteristics. I believe I love this because it is so much like hunting, and the ocean is so incredibly beautiful.

I also have had the chance to see many large animals at close range in the water, and much as I would love to have them in the house, a pet grey whale, killer whale, dolphin, harbor seal,
wouldn't really work, nor would shooting one, and stuffing it, putting it in a trophy room.

Thankfully, the killer whales,sea lions, elephant seals, and great whales I've been around in the water, along with great white sharks, and tiger sharks, have allowed me to co-exist, and I return the favor.

I've been very close to feeding, and playing killer whales, and the thought of being played with, batted from nose to nose, out of the water,
prior to being eaten, is not a thought I relish.

I have noticed that as people get older, their
drive to kill, not hunt, diminishes. Many older
people, perhaps in respect for the dwindling numbers of animals, etc. or for the younger generations to be able to see such beautiful animals, I don't know. But that self-examination
becomes greater with age and wisdom.

I often think I could kill an old bull buffalo, rather then watch him torn apart by lions.

Likewise any maneater, or injured animal, I could see putting down, rather then have it die a horrible death, dragged down, and torn apart by Hyenas.
It would sadden me, but, I could do it.

However, I would rather see a healthy animal again, and perhaps share that moment with it, and the trust that comes with co-existence.

I believe animals have feelings, maybe not as we do, but they have trust, and companionship that develops.

Quick example. We feed geese and ducks all the time, and, they know when we are coming, and who we are.

One day walking down to the park, I found a mallard, laying in the road, barely able to move, hit by a car. I protected her by standing next to her, and she stayed there. I'm pretty sure it was one of the ducks we fed all the time.

Anyway, when another person came close, she flew off, barely, after sitting by me for about 10 minutes in the street.

I managed to catch her, give her to animal control, and she recovered.

When we feed the ducks and geese, that same duck comes up, with a distinctive walk, and will sit at my feet, regardless if I'm feeding her or not, and just stay there for awhile.

I guess the question I have is what is our stewardship on this planet?

The odd part for me is it's much easier for me to approve killing a human, because we REALLY have free choice, and should be held responsible for our actions more so then most animals.

I guess for me, I would, if I decided hunting was
really in the ball park, try and pick a prey that I felt really deserved killing. Terrorists and
certain African dictators come to mind. Those that destroy the beauty of this world, God's creation.

However, it appears He is quite capable of cleaning up messes we create, with famine, disease, and aids.

However, I am not God, and barring Divine Instruction, I will let Him sit in judgment.

All I can do is ask questions, and hope for Revelation...

Socrates

[ 11-16-2003, 20:35: Message edited by: Socrates ]

In a way, I think Mac is correct. On the other hand, I think that it is important that we (the hunters) question what we do. In doing so and finding good answers (like both Ortega's and Hemmingway's) we have more power in our words when speaking with non-, or anti-hunters.

Also, it is indeed true that hunting is a natural habit of man, but every now and then we must ask our selves; what are we doing? If we aren't, we might easily slide between the borders of hunting and just killing whithout noticing. Todays technology can easily turn the thrill of the hunt into sheer butchery if one doesn't reflect over ones actions.

Other good thoughts on hunting and trophies can be found in "horn of the hunter" by Ruark.

[ 11-17-2003, 01:00: Message edited by: Kalle Stolt ]

Instincts which have ensured our survival through the millennia should be treasured .. not questioned. One day, men as we are will cease to be, the remnants of our power nurtured vicariously, if at all. Can't imagine that world ... glad I won't see it.

[ 11-16-2003, 21:44: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Recognized, and treasured. Always questioned.

Lord gave us instincts, but, the Deadly sins are examples of instincts run rampant, and the results can destroy Creation.

There is something very scary about a 105mm cannon. You line the crosshairs up, pull the trigger, and if the target is any smaller then an aircraft carrier, it pretty much disappears.

The power is scary, exhilirating, terrifying,
and stimulating, all at the same time. These emotions are the danger.When they become more then they should, look out.

Not to mention you are so far away, it looses
what the action really is. It's the seperation of killing. Sort of like a video game, where the target is there, then it disappears, and another appears. Difference is, you are really killing people, destroying cars, animals, etc.

I wonder if you could become divorced enough to order the deaths of certain areas of the world, dropping hydrogen bombs on the affending areas.

That Johannesburg ghetto is gone, turned to glass.
Certain terrorist training bases, and countries, wiped cleaned. Reminds me of the Arc of the Covenant...wiped clean by the power of God.

Let us remember Where our gifts come from, and use them in His image, not our own.

gs

I see the light now, Socrates! No question.

Dear Mr.Lexma,
What the hell have you been smok'en boy??

Socrates

Are you saying that you think 13, 14 year old kids should sleep with each other?

You mention God in your posts, He says they shouldn't. I'm in agreement with Him. If I'm reading your post correctly, you appear to be one of those who say's he "believes in God." There are very few in this world who "believe God." I'm one of those who "believes what He say's."

As to the rest of this thread, you guys have way to much time on your hands.

[ 11-17-2003, 00:07: Message edited by: JBabcock ]

I readily concede to the opinions of those who have critiqued what I meant by what I wrote. With that said, I will, once again, try to explain what I think is true, and sound!

All the reasoning by Mrlexma, and Socrates, are simply takeing the long way around the barn to say they have succumbed to society's re-working the natural system, and now do not reccognise it, as nature, but sport! We still hunt to place food on the table, but for most of scociety, the food is not hunted but raised, and someone else kills it, and cuts it up, and we go to the store and buy it. The skins are still made into the shoes, and other cloths we wear to protect our weak bodies from the sun, and cold! Instead of gathering the vegetable matter we need we have someone else grow it, gather it, and we go to the store and buy it! This was a result of man's big brain. He found that to avoid times of low food supply, it was easier to pen animals up, and butcher them when needed,and grow plants, and store them so they were available in slack times. It is still hunted, and gathered, but someone else does it for most people!

That is exactly the same thing, only spread out over many people, so that it doesn't LOOK like nature! The fact that we have large brains, is not why we don't kill all our own food, but the reason we have survived all sorts of conditions that kill out lesser beasts. There is no shame in yealding to our instincts,that is the biggest mistake that man has made in the world, thinking he knows better than nature! Nothing man has ever done has improved on nature, but hinders it's viability.

Every single thing that is consumed by any liveing creature is the byproduct of the killing of something, be it rice, or red meat! The problem is those who think all that life began in a saran wrap package! It didn't, it was killed by someone. Man's nature is that of a hunter/gatherer, by NATURE, and regardless what modern man thinks, NATURE IS NOT RIGHT, OR WRONG, IT SIMPLY "IS"! I, am a HUNTER/GATHER by NATURE, and I don't apologise to anyone for that fact.

Though you think you hunt for sport, you are simply following nature's pattern, and yealding to the instincts that are in your natural make up, nothing more! No matter how you dress it, Man is a hunter/gatherer by nature, not because he likes it, though he might, but because that is what he is meant to be!

mrlexma - This is a great thread. Hunting is what made us human beings, it taught us how to work together as a group, as a group of individuals. It took us out of the catagory of herd animals and made us a band, a clan, tribes, for better or worse.

My friend the retired USMC Col. says of golf courses, "A waste of a perfectly good rifle range." -Fred

quote:

---

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Ah, but Mac . . . we are not simple brutes. We have big brains, opposable thumbs and use tools, among them, rifles.

And, unlike the other predators you mention, we don't have to hunt wild game to live. We eat our kills, of course, but we hunt mainly as a sport. Like Nickudu, the so-called pleasures of golf are completely lost on me. My favorite sport is hunting, and it's a blood sport, with a lot of killing involved. But I don't think of myself as sadistic or bloodthirsty by any stretch of the imagination.

I just love big game hunting and do it as often as I can. When I'm not doing it, I'm making plans to do it again soon. You're right that we are predators and have hunted since time immemorial, but, as I said, we don't need to do it any longer to put food on the table.

So, why we do it is interesting to me. I'm not sure I know why I do it. It's something I love and maybe there's a mystery there that can't be solved. But I'll keep thinking about it, I'm sure, until I figure it out or die, whichever comes first.

---

Yes, I agree, Fred, we did start out that way. We began as pack hunters, or so they say, much like wolves.

But hunting these days is a sporting activity by and large, although that is not its essence, and it is as structured and artificial as any sporting contest.

It is a sport because we don't need it any more to survive as a species, but we have preserved it because some of us like to do it anyway. These days, the pattern of hunting isn't as much nature's, as it is the one we humans have put on it.

Nor is hunting analogous to raising and slaughtering domesticated livestock. That is butchering. It is an alteration of nature, a domestication of it, a means to obtain food regularly and predictably without having to hunt it down in the wild.

That is the point and the reason for my inquiry. We are not Paleolithic men anymore. Except in rare circumstances, we no longer have to hunt any wild game anywhere on earth to insure the survival of our species.

Ortega says in Meditations that "Hunting is what an animal does to take possession, dead or alive, of some other being that belongs to a species basically inferior to its own." That's a pretty good definition in my book.

We humans could annihilate every species of big game animal on earth, by means of our superior intelligence and our technology. The mass extinctions of megafauna such as woolly mammoths, cave bears, giant elk, etc. caused by human hunters in the Paleolithic era bear this out. Today our killing power has been magnified exponentially through even better technology.

But nowadays, with intermittent exceptions, we don't hunt animals to extinction. If we merely followed our instincts, as our primitive ancestors did, we would wipe out every large game animal, including the largest, elephants on land and whales in the seas. But instead, we hunters are the greatest of conservationists.

We intentionally restrict ourselves, by closing seasons, limiting bags, refraining from hunting at night with spotlights, with rocket launchers, etc. We consciously decide that we will not use our power over these animals as effectively as we could.

As Ortega writes:

"The real care that man must exercise is not in pretending to make the beast equal to him, because that is a stupid utopia, a beatific farce, but rather in avoiding more and more the excess of his superiority. Hunting is the free play of an inferior species in the face of a superior species. . . . Man must give the animal a "handicap," in order to place him as close as possible to his own level, without pretending an illusory equivalence which, even if it were possible, would annihilate ipso facto the very reality of the hunt. [As Ortega says, rough equals don't hunt each other; rather, they fight.] Strictly speaking, the essence of sportive hunting is not raising the animal to the level of man, but something much more spiritual than that: a conscious and almost religious humbling of man which limits his superiority and lowers him toward the animal."

I think this is in part what Socrates was getting at in his posts. Ortega continues:

"I have said 'religious,' and the word does not seem excessive to me. As I have already pointed out, a fascinating mystery of Nature is manifested in the universal fact of hunting: the inexorable hierarchy among living beings. Every animal is in a relationship of superiority or inferiority with regard to every other. . . . Life is a terrible conflict, a grandiose and atrocious confluence. Hunting submerges [modern] man deliberately in that formidable mystery and therefore contains something of religious rite and emotion in which homage is paid to what is divine, transcendant, in the laws of Nature."

We are far more than our instincts and they do not explain why we hunt in the modern world. Nor do they explain why you hunt and I hunt and Tom, Dick and Harry don't and would, in fact, probably starve to death in a supermarket.

Why do we submerge ourselves in this mystery of hunting time and time again? It's not enough to say it's instinctive, nor is it enough to say we like it or that we are solely and merely stewards for our fellow animals on earth. After all, we kill them regularly.

Maybe it's nostalgia.

[ 11-17-2003, 03:14: Message edited by: mrlexma ]

mrlexma, very well said! My hat is off to you!

I am a predator, not a philosopher. It defines me and makes me feel whole. There is no place I feel closer to God than watching the sun rise over the Rockies with a rifle in my hands listening to the elk bugle.

Mrlexma,
Thanks for the quotes from Ortega. Every hunter should read his book and every non-hunter too!

Happy hunting!

You do not have to kill to hunt. Some of my best hunts have ended without a kill. Sometimes hunting with a camera, is more enjoyable than hunting with a gun.

That being said:
Hunting without killing is like a sentence without a period at the end

"
You mention God in your posts, He says they shouldn't. I'm in agreement with Him. If I'm reading your post correctly, you appear to be one of those who say's he "believes in God." There are very few in this world who "believe God." I'm one of those who "believes what He say's.""

JBabcock: I thought I knew His Word fairly well.
I don't remember this age reference. Please refresh my memory, with a specific quote, and book reference.

MacD37 said:
"
All the reasoning by Mrlexma, and Socrates, are simply takeing the long way around the barn to say they have succumbed to society's re-working the natural system, and now do not reccognise it, as nature, but sport!"

EXACTLY!! And, we are so screwed up, we devalue
the very abilities, and instincts that got us where we are.

Another of my favorite examples:

I grew up in both very conservative, and very liberal areas. In the late 60's, I was in Berkeley, and moved to UCSC in 72 to study politics.

After endless studying, I came to the conclusion that all these bleeding heart liberals had the right to endlessly debate the failings of hunters, conservatives, and the military, for one, and only one reason: The United States was THE world super power, or at least, in the Americas, and we really did have the biggest guns.

Mao said something like: "Power comes from the barrel of a gun." And he was, and is, right, absolutely. Without our superior armed forces, we would all be speaking Japanese, German, or Italian right now, or be dead.

Such is the NATURE of international politics.

My comments about the insanity that can accompany absolute power was fueled by the 20-30 million people Stalin killed, of his own people, just to keep them in line. The prior Russian regimes were not much more kind.

I'm sure when we finally have free China, we will find similar tales.

By the way, China has always been a nice reminder of the limitations of our power.

Our almighty politicians finally figured out that invading countries on the BORDER of China, 3000 miles away, like Korea, and Vietnam, might lead to a war we couldn't win.

Goldwater understood the situation: That the bomb was the only way to win those wars, and, we ended up quickly settling with those "countries" as soon as China flexed their muscles.

Odd none of the bleeding heart liberals cried in outrage when China took Tibet...

No, Mao is right, and the only reason we can sit here and have such mussings is the absolute power of our nuclear aresenal.

None the less, our arogance in power, thinking we are invulnerable, blinds us to the billions of people that want what we have, and want to overthrow us.

I'm currently turning over in my grave, with some bill to give Africa 2.3 billion dollars of my tax money to fight aids. Fuck em. Aids is my hope for Africa. I guess I better spend every dime of my taxes on american children, and improve their lives...and, I think I can do that.

My point is that our intellectual force has become so divorced from the source of their origin, they that critique, belittle, and try and destroy the foundations of all that gives them the freedom to even open their mouths.

That said, I would be the worst of hyporcites to fail to understand man's instincts to hunt, and how important it is in the survival of our spieces, in the long run.

If we loose the foundation that created our nation, hunting, self-sufficency, respect for diverse ideas, and religions, etc. we will fall, as did Rome, and our downfall will come from within.

I love animals, and I love them because I respect what they are, and their incredible, God given, abilities.

I watch my fish, and only can dream that I had their swimming abilities, and, with my catfish, their breeding abilites

My cat, jumps easily, straight up,5-6 times her height, I can't catch her, is so quick, and fast, if she was bigger, I would never get off more then two shots, if she was charging, and, if she was stalking me, which she does, would nail me, nearly everytime, and I would never know what hit me.

I respect, and glorify those abilities, because, without a rifle, we are really a vastly inferior spieces to the animals we hunt.

Anyone want to take on a herd of elephants without rifles? How about wrestling with a cape buffalo, or grizzly?

That said, we really need to become stewards of the wonderful beauty that God has put into this planet, and recognize man's ability to obliterate
that beauty, real quickly.

I'm sort of with Hemmingway, that the only really
justifiable game is man, for man, at this point.

I would also like all to consider a comment from Jim Corbett, in the beggining of one of his books:
I'll paraphrase.

Mr. Corbett grew up in India, and as a 12 year old boy, was out hunting birds with a 22 rifle.

He turned a corner, and looked UP at a full grown, male bengal tiger. Having recently been within 5 feet of a siberian tiger, and those fantastic eyes, I can well imagine his terror, excitement, and total joy of life. The tiger roared, and young Corbett ran like hell, and,
was not attacked.

Mr. Corbett said that after many years of stalking bengal tigers, and learning the different roars, and thier meanings, he realized the giant bengal tiger was laughing, to be confronted by such a tiny boy, with a tiny rifle,
and, much as we throw back a small fish, so did the tiger. I just ask us to use as much selectivity in hunting as did that tiger.

Ray had a similar experience with a mother lion, and, I suppose all I ask is that all that hunt keep perspective, and track, of the game, and numbers you hunt.

In our stewardship, if I might defile the term by calling it that, we have a knack for screwing up echo systems, and that creates spieces in danger, then another one is over-populated, etc. Let's just make sure we leave a few for our children...

Sort of like Aragorn to Gimili:
"Make sure you take your axe to the right tree."
!!

s

Nickudu and Fred,

Funny you should bring up golf in this HEAVY discussion, thanks for lightening it up. After my first safari we were returning through Pretoria when we passed by a golf course, even though I golf frequently, after 10 days in the bush that course seemed insignificant. When you have walked with lions chasing a ball seems silly.

CFA

This is something I think we need to ask ourselves. I could say that hunting via a guide and all is not hunting but that would offend some of you. I hunt doves as a social event to see old guys I have not seen for a year, to talk about friends lost, to remember the good old days and to see who among us is still able to shoot well enough to get 15 birds in under two boxes. I hunt squirrles to get back into nature and to enjoy something different in my diet. I hunt birds to see the dogs work. I hunt deer to see if I can take nature on and win. The deer has the best odds on any given day but when I get him I really didn't win for he beat me ten other times that I didn't count. Therefore, for that moment, I have redeamed myself as top of the food source. It is all about respect. The guy who waste game has crossed into the danger zone. He is killing for darker causes. We should not judge others but measure ourselves against what is legal, sportsman-like etc. Do I count the bird I couldn 't find in the tall grass? Do I let my buddy finish my take because I just can't seem to hit them today? Do I go when my holding possession is over the law? Thanks for the topic.

posted 11-19-2003 07:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"
You mention God in your posts, He says they shouldn't. I'm in agreement with Him. If I'm reading your post correctly, you appear to be one of those who say's he "believes in God." There are very few in this world who "believe God." I'm one of those who "believes what He say's.""

JBabcock: I thought I knew His Word fairly well.
I don't remember this age reference. Please refresh my memory, with a specific quote, and book reference.

Still waiting...

S

PS

This reminds me of a state championship basketball team from De LaSalle. They had a 6'5" quarterback, who played on the basketball team named Matt Guteriez(sp?).

I used to love to watch other teams try and full court press us. Matt was used to standing in against guys trying to rip his headoff, as he passed the football. In basketball, the guys could only wave their hands, as he rifled the ball down court to cutting players for layups.
As soon as the other team got the bright idea of full court pressing, game over.

I might suggest golf is a very different game, with huge galleries, and massive amounts of money on the line. Those guys ARE GOOD, and they are athletes.

I have often thought of a new game. You drive the ball down the fairway. You are allowed a couple shots to hit your target, the golf ball, at 280 yards. Would make a very intrestin' shooting event, and, add a little more spice to golf.

[ 11-21-2003, 06:09: Message edited by: Socrates ]