quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
Late-Bloomer,

I have forwarded your request to the following:

- The Revenue Authority
- The Customs
- The Wildlife Authority
- Shell, Total, Caltex, and my local petrol station
- The local Toyota Parts Dealership
- The District Tax Office
- My usual Air Charter Operator
- Michelin tyres dealership
- My permanent staff
- My seasonal staff
- The local supermarket
- Four different hotels
- SAA, Brussel Airlines, BA, KLM
- And a few other idle people who count on my handouts in the form of fees, levies, taxes, salaries, purchases, etc. to make a living.

I'm sure they'll all be delighted to meet in the middle, and will inform you of the time and venue for the Middle Meeting.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Atually, like in any forms of life, things work quite well between hunters and outfitters.

The problem arises when one side decides to take the other for a ride.

Hunters who want to go on a 5-star hunt, but want to pay for a 2-star hunt.

Hunters who have a shopping list, with specific animals and specific sizes, already in their pockets before they go on a hunt.

Hunters who are totally unprepared for their hunt for one reason or another. Like not knowing their rifle well enough, it is too big a bore for what they wish to hunt. Not being physically able to hunt on foot.

Hunters who shoot animals they do not have money for, promising the PH they will pay as soon as they get back. Then disappear from the face of the earth soon after.

Hunters who think they can do themselves a favour and save money at the same time, by becoming "booking agents" as soon as they are home.

Hunters who think they can save the outfitter's commission by booking directly with a PH.

Booking agents and outfitters who KNOW they can not deliver what they promise the hunter when he books his hunt, but make promises to the contrary, just to make sure they get the booking.

Booking agents and outfitters who send hunters to areas where they know certain animals are not found there, conveniently forgetting to mention this little fact to the client. Tanzania is a great place for this, as many species are only found in certain areas.

Booking agents and outfitters who over shoot the concessions they hunt.

Booking agents and outfitters who demand money from the client well in advance, employ a PH to conduct their hunts for them, and then conveniently don't pay them for months afterwards.

I could go on and on about the horror stories one hears in Africa. Most of which never come out for one reason or another.

At the end of the day, most hunters, as most outfitters, are normal honest people.

The few rogues are the ones who ruin it for for us.

Well said Saeed...

+1 from me.

I only hope to get what I pay for in life - no more no less.

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
This business is like any other you have good PH's and bad ones good outfitters and bad GOOD booking agents and bad. But the bottom line is as always money and everyone thinks there getting screwed by the other guy. and as a hunter I just want a fair price for the services i get.The hunting business for yrs. has been the domain of the very rich and some prices reflect that.And thats why many Africans think ALL muzungu's are rich they only see rich ones who can afford to hunt Africa.I know one booking agent who calls his outfitters and ph's before booking to make double sur everything is as promised. And he never books huts with anyone he has not hunted with as a paying client

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
One problem is Americans don't know how to haggle prices very well and seem to take the entire process personally.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Atually, like in any forms of life, things work quite well between hunters and outfitters.

The problem arises when one side decides to take the other for a ride.

Hunters who want to go on a 5-star hunt, but want to pay for a 2-star hunt.

Hunters who have a shopping list, with specific animals and specific sizes, already in their pockets before they go on a hunt.

Hunters who are totally unprepared for their hunt for one reason or another. Like not knowing their rifle well enough, it is too big a bore for what they wish to hunt. Not being physically able to hunt on foot.

Hunters who shoot animals they do not have money for, promising the PH they will pay as soon as they get back. Then disappear from the face of the earth soon after.

Hunters who think they can do themselves a favour and save money at the same time, by becoming "booking agents" as soon as they are home.

Hunters who think they can save the outfitter's commission by booking directly with a PH.

Booking agents and outfitters who KNOW they can not deliver what they promise the hunter when he books his hunt, but make promises to the contrary, just to make sure they get the booking.

Booking agents and outfitters who send hunters to areas where they know certain animals are not found there, conveniently forgetting to mention this little fact to the client. Tanzania is a great place for this, as many species are only found in certain areas.

Booking agents and outfitters who over shoot the concessions they hunt.

Booking agents and outfitters who demand money from the client well in advance, employ a PH to conduct their hunts for them, and then conveniently don't pay them for months afterwards.

I could go on and on about the horror stories one hears in Africa. Most of which never come out for one reason or another.

At the end of the day, most hunters, as most outfitters, are normal honest people.

The few rogues are the ones who ruin it for for us.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Late-Bloomer, Many Thanks for starting the conversation.

I really wish things were not so Black and White on the thoughts you addressed.

I do not know about anyone else or their situation, but my opinion matches yours in many ways.

Hunters, whichever side of the fence they are on, are going thru some of the most tumultious times they will ever face I believe.

I think that when things level out and return to some sort of normalacy, people will still be hunting and other folks will still be in the business of guiding/outfitting/booking hunts.

My concern lies with the numbers on both sides of the issue.

Best of Luck to you Late-Bloomer and your future as a hunter.

And that is sent out to all of us that have participated in this discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I have followed this thread with interest as I was curious to the responses. Let me offer my insight -

Goals of the Hunter
1. Have fun
2. Have access to and hunt the animals promised
3. Pay a reasonable price
4. Get the trophies home in reasonable condition and in a reasonable time frame.

Goals fo the PH/Outfitter
1. Provide the hunter with a fun experience
2. Provide access to the animals promised
3. Receive a reasonable pay day
4. Get the trophies out of the country asap.

Goals are aligned as far as I can tell.

As in every dispute, money is the root cause of the problem.

My observations on money -
1. As a hunter, I do not want something for nothing. I want to pay for the service rendered. I realize that the PH/Outfitter works to earn a living. I am willing to trade my money for the experience of hunting in Africa. The PH/Outfitter is will to trade experience for money.

2. Trophy fees are no transparent. On private ground, they are set by the owner of the animals. On "concession" ground or government areas, they are set by the ruling authority.

Trophy fees "are what they are" but I am always uncomfortable with how the number is arranged and set. I would like to know more about this as I get nervous when I see sliding scales for inches or pounds.

3. Deposits and the handling of money prior to the hunt makes both PH/Outfitter and hunter uncomfortable. I have had good and bad experiences on this. I have no real solution to this dilema.

4. I do not like the "required days" aspect of getting access to certain animals. I do not like being forced to buy a 21 day hunt to go after certain antelope. Sometimes the government requires this, sometimes not. This skews the daily rate aspect of things.

5. I understand the daily rate but do not understand why I should pay $900 per day for a 10 day buff hunt and $1800 per day for an 18 day lion hunt. I feel gouged and taken advantage of.

Meeting in the Middle observations-

1. I would go on a DG safari every year if I could hunt buff, leopard or ele for $900 +/- $100 per day and "reasonable" trophy fees. Buff seems to be $1500 to $2700, leopard is $3000 to $6500 (dogs affect this), lion seems to be $3000 to $60,000. Plains game is odd to me as I see kudu from $700 to $1800 and baboons from $0 to $200.

2. The dip and pack fee seems odd to me as well. A flat $500 should be plenty.

3. Taxes are taxes, but I would like assurance they get paid.

4. In my personal case, I bring 3 hunters and 2 or more observers on each hunt. I would like to see some consideration for the "volume". Adding one PH to an already set hunt should not automatically double the daily rate expense costs to the PH/Outfitter.

Conclusion - I would like to feel free to discuss options with a reputable and experienced PH/Outfitter that would meet his needs as well as my desires. I want him to make a profit, I want him in business for the next hunt and I want to feel I have not been gouged or viewed as a dumb American with a pocket full of money. If this can be done via an agent, fine by me.

My thoughts...