A MEETING in the MIDDLE for HUNTERS and OUTFITTERS...

...was created to give BOTH entities the chance to hear the concerns of the other in preparation for the tough economic times ahead.

None of us has a crystal-ball at the moment!

But...


How does one deal with this as a HUNTER?

How does one deal with this as an OUTFITTER?


I've been listening & reading alot of things lately that indicate we are headed for some real turmoil in the years to come in the GLOBAL ECONOMY.
Meaning we have not seen anything yet and we have merely scratched the surface of its genesis.

I have my reasons for agreeing with the like and it disturbs me. I am forced to be in SURVIVAL mode.

My hunting plans have changed dramatically. I am deeply concerned as a hunter and as one who depends on the services of a respectable outfitter abroad.

It's now... if, when, and where and what I HOPE to hunt in the next several years.

Many who are seeking to live-out their dreams may be forced out of the action, and I wonder about the generation behind us will the numbers be there to support this industry at large???

Truthfully, I am quite dis-heartened as I had alot of plans like most of us!

I posted this as I was eager to hear how others felt in regards to their future HUNTING PLANS...and to hear their feelings without judgment, for no one can influence my feelings on the topic as well.

I'm also genuinely interested in hearing the opinions of OUTFITTERS foremost, other than the opinions of booking agents!

I thought this would be tremendously EDUCATIONAL to the benefit of these two entities alone and to genuinely understand the dynamics that will be affecting us in lieu of the forth-coming events!

So why don't WE instead MEET in the MIDDLE for a change and share with one another our personal insights about the challenges that await us!

I believe WE should meet as such on COMMON GROUND because WE alone hold the future on the rise and/or demise of African or American Big Game hunting as we have become to know it TODAY! Times are CHANGING and we need to help each other to get through it TOGETHER!

As a respectable hunter I'm not one looking for a deal that will run an OUTFITTER out-of-business. But due to the economy we need to find COMMON GROUND where Big Game and DG hunting is still an option for many of us to still partake of.

Further, it is in my best interest as a hunter to keep an OUTFITTER in business so he may turn a "nominal/modest" profit in hopes of some volume to ENDURE the tough economic times ahead and still be around for a great number of years; For I am of the opinion that those who do not concede to this way of thinking early on, will not be with us for very long...Again, just my honest opinion and a sad one at that.

"When, What, and How" do we HUNTERS and OUTFITTERS band together for our mutual benefit and the love and passion for our incredible sport!

I believe something must be done for the welfare of us all in preparation for the years ahead!

My objective here is to get the ball rolling QUICKER for our own sakes!

Let's all MEET in the MIDDLE for once and find COMMON GROUND to help sustain this wonderful industry and be open, honest, and forth-right...less we lose some along the way...Both HUNTER and OUTFITTER the entities who really make this whole thing happen!

I have nothing further to say, but I hope many will soon use this platform to share for the benefit of all to PERPETUATE this WORLD-CLASS SPORT!!!

Aloha and wishing us all the best!

Ro

Well Wendell and Mark, I guess we don't need to worry about throwing our"just agents" two cents in on this one.. He won't have to worry about hearing mine for sure. I hope he will not mind our types reading his report when he gets this all figured out !

Huh? at least to the original post????

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Well Wendell and Mark, I guess we don't need to worry about throwing our"just agents" two cents in on this one.. He won't have to worry about hearing mine for sure. I hope he will not mind our types reading his report when he gets this all figured out !

Quite to the contrary...I well-respect yours and Wendell's opinions...However, I posted this to hear from the outfitters and hunters...that's all!

What's so wrong with that?



And btw no report...just was eager to hear from these two entities...

JudgeG

I must agree! Huh???

Mark

Well, if I am so off-based in making this inquiry to geuinely learn and understand the perspective of the average hunter and outfitter at large...then so be it...

Nonetheless, it is a very honest and genuine inquiry I have... as I have "already" read/listened to many posts from a booking agents perspective!

Just trying to get a perspective from the others that's all...Again I ask what is soo wrong with that? I see nothing!

All in all I can now understand how a booking agent may feel a bit disdain to voice their opinions here as yours as they are soo used to being in the MIDDLE...

However, again NO ill-intentions on my part!

In fact I should've anticipated your responses thus far...I didn't think that some AGENT [MEN]folk would have these issues...Not trying to start a pissing-match ain't my style but it surely does show I a STRUCK-A-CHORD and a very SENSITIVE issue here and your replies have confirmed that...Hmmmm...

However, I have no apologies as this was an honest and genuine inquiry into hearing the perspectives of HUNTERS and OUTFITTERS about these issues!

Ro, you better hunt while you still can. Cause you know that all those 'ass busting' jobs in Africa will cease to exist once the money trail gravy train comes to a screeching halt.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Ro, you better hunt while you still can. Cause you know that all those 'ass busting' jobs in Africa will cease to exist once the money trail gravy train comes to a screeching halt.

I hear you...

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
Huh? at least to the original post????

+1

I think hunters and outfitters already meet in the middle. I pay more than I would like and they charge less than they would like. It's called free enterprise.

late-bloomer - I will take you serious and meet you in the middle if you promise to book a hunt and sign the contract!

Meet in the Middle - San Antonio & Hawaii, so lets meet in LA.

When - You let me know

What - I meet you in the middle in LA and you book a hunt

Okay folks have all the laughs you want...No problem...

But when the times happen...I'll have enough class not to tell you I told you so!!!

So what are you asking? Are you wanting outfitters and operators to bend over and offer you discounted hunts to the tune of 50 to 75 percent off, or am I missing something?

Bottom line is you either have the money or you don't. If you have it you go, if you don't you wait until you have it.

There is only so much that the price for anything can be cut and the service still be provided. Some things you don't need to squeeze--

Like the others said, "Huh?"

What do you want to meet about? Is there something going on that I don't know about?

And one last thing if I may...

I'm simply AMAZED at how much REGARD you BOOKING AGENTS have for your hunters and the PH/Outfitters that you were supposedly representing!

It is very plain to see that you who've replied were self-serving all along and that your replies here explicitly confirm that as well for others to see!!!

Real

Thank goodness I deal with booking agents of much more INTEGRITY and DIPLOMACY than that...

Again...no problem folks!

Let's see if I have a reasonable idea of what you are asking with your question.

If I wander off base, please excuse me.

While I have no experience what so ever with African Hunting on either side of the fence, I do in North America.

This is just my interpretation of your question, so I may be way off base.

Please keep in mind that I am looking at your question from both sides of the fence, as your question is posed.

From the Outfitter/Guide stand point, and I only offer Javelina and Spring Turkey hunts, I had a great month in March of 2009.

Booked solid, great group of clients.

Then the state of the economy hit Texas and everywhere else.

Hunters stopped booking hunts, and not just with me, but with many of the folks that I am in contact with that offer feral hog hunts.

As a hunter myself, I am trying to set up a couple of hunts, and finding the $$$$ to do so is a challenge, and I am not talking about expensive hunts either.

Don't know how far off track I have gotten, so I will push blindly on.

One thing I used to hear from other guides, was that they either could not or would not pay what they charge for the hunts they conduct.

I try to keep my hunts priced as reasonably as possible, but with the world's and the U.S. economy in the shape it is in, for many folks, there simply is not the discretionary/disposabal income available as it once was.

With the shaky employment climate, folks do not know if they will have a job next week let alone next month or next year.

The desire to do a hunt is still there, but the funding has dried up.

In places like Texas, where hunting is a billion dollar industry, guides/outfitters/ranchers/lease managers are all holding their collective breaths as hunting seasons are approaching.

I am not dependent on my hunting operation, so if I don't book anyone for this next spring, I will survive, I* just won't have the extra income my hunts bring in to the house hold and the rancher I deal with won't get the little extra $$$$$ he gets from my efforts.

There are some operators however, that will be hurting in a bad way, if they do not lease their properties or book hunts.

Some of that, or a lot of that comes from the years of being able to charge higher and higher prices, and having customers competeing for those properties/hunts.

Now, I feel that many folks are going to be forced out of hunting, here in Texas at least, simply because they can not afford it.

There will still be folks leasing places and going on hunts, just not in the numbers as in the past few years, and some landowners'leasing agents are going to have to look at reducing their prices where possible.

That is all just my opinion and I hope I was not too far off topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Let's see if I have a reasonable idea of what you are asking with your question.

If I wander off base, please excuse me.

While I have no experience what so ever with African Hunting on either side of the fence, I do in North America.

This is just my interpretation of your question, so I may be way off base.

Please keep in mind that I am looking at your question from both sides of the fence, as your question is posed.

From the Outfitter/Guide stand point, and I only offer Javelina and Spring Turkey hunts, I had a great month in March of 2009.

Booked solid, great group of clients.

Then the state of the economy hit Texas and everywhere else.

Hunters stopped booking hunts, and not just with me, but with many of the folks that I am in contact with that offer feral hog hunts.

As a hunter myself, I am trying to set up a couple of hunts, and finding the $$$$ to do so is a challenge, and I am not talking about expensive hunts either.

Don't know how far off track I have gotten, so I will push blindly on.

One thing I used to hear from other guides, was that they either could not or would not pay what they charge for the hunts they conduct.

I try to keep my hunts priced as reasonably as possible, but with the world's and the U.S. economy in the shape it is in, for many folks, there simply is not the discretionary/disposabal income available as it once was.

With the shaky employment climate, folks do not know if they will have a job next week let alone next month or next year.

The desire to do a hunt is still there, but the funding has dried up.

In places like Texas, where hunting is a billion dollar industry, guides/outfitters/ranchers/lease managers are all holding their collective breaths as hunting seasons are approaching.

I am not dependent on my hunting operation, so if I don't book anyone for this next spring, I will survive, I* just won't have the extra income my hunts bring in to the house hold and the rancher I deal with won't get the little extra $$$$$ he gets from my efforts.

There are some operators however, that will be hurting in a bad way, if they do not lease their properties or book hunts.

Some of that, or a lot of that comes from the years of being able to charge higher and higher prices, and having customers competeing for those properties/hunts.

Now, I feel that many folks are going to be forced out of hunting, here in Texas at least, simply because they can not afford it.

There will still be folks leasing places and going on hunts, just not in the numbers as in the past few years, and some landowners'leasing agents are going to have to look at reducing their prices where possible.

That is all just my opinion and I hope I was not too far off topic.

Thank you very much...I appreciate you taking the time to share what its been like and what you're currently facing!

In spite of the current SCOFFERS on this thread thank you for responding to my honest inquiry on your perspective!

Your quite welcome, and I thought I knew what you were trying to get across.

Some hunters will be able to continue to book hunts and some guides/outfitters/booking agent won't see a major drop in their business.

I just happen to believe that overall, hunter numbers are going to drop during the existing economic situation and some operations will experience a decrease in their bookings/customers. JMO.

I can only speak for myself, but it takes quite a bit of financial effort to save the money for a safari and I try to space them every three years. The outfitters I've spoken to are feeling the loss of the "little guy", i.e. ME, because the recent economic downturn has taken any spending money and forced into the necessity pile. I am self employed, and am feeling a loss of income/downsizing/increased expenses, etc. But I cant expect my outfitter to lower his price because I'm poorer. This is and always has been a rich mans game. I hope that the prices will seek a level that remains attainable for the likes of myself, and will do what I can to ensure that I can go again. But, being a business man, I understand that no operator can run his business at a loss. Let's vote for a smarter group of politicians, worldwide, next election!!

Bloomer:

I'm not trying to discount what you are trying to say, it's just that I didn't understand what it was. The CAPITALS kind of got to me and I'm not sure of the definitions of OUTFITTER, etc.

As the world stands now, and with the limited resources I have, I must deal in the micro and not the macro. I can't fix any damn thing more than what I get by opening my pocketbook. My "bully pulpit" is about as big as my toilet seat. Being an opportunistic butthead just isn't very self-serving, right or the way to win friends of influence people.

That said, since I'm into hunting in Africa, Alaska, etc., until I die (Safari being third to my God and daughters), I'm not about to try to rip off someone because I can. The worm will turn and I may be the feast instead of the feaster??? Being fair is a moral command, a religious promise and a practical way to maintain good relationships (with folks in the hunting industry).

I'm not about to disclose e-mails to various outfitters, booking agents, etc., but if they want to do so, let them have at it.

I think you'll see that we've mutually discussed the present economic conditions and I've asked what they can do and still survive and make a buck. They have been quite receptive, honest and understanding of my limited funds, their need to sell something, the buyer's market, good will, the need to be around next year, etc.

I'm quite confident that the pendulum will swing. The folks I contacted are professionals. I hope they will be still around when I again negotiate, albeit, in the future, but eventually, with the seller in the driver's seat.

I doubt that a single seller (P.H., outfitter or agent) doubts that I, or many like me, will be around when they get dealt the good card.... and I hope they will remember that I only wanted a good deal, not a rape.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Nderobo:
I can only speak for myself, but it takes quite a bit of financial effort to save the money for a safari and I try to space them every three years. The outfitters I've spoken to are feeling the loss of the "little guy", i.e. ME, because the recent economic downturn has taken any spending money and forced into the necessity pile. I am self employed, and am feeling a loss of income/downsizing/increased expenses, etc. But I cant expect my outfitter to lower his price because I'm poorer. This is and always has been a rich mans game. I hope that the prices will seek a level that remains attainable for the likes of myself, and will do what I can to ensure that I can go again. But, being a business man, I understand that no operator can run his business at a loss. Let's vote for a smarter group of politicians, worldwide, next election!!

I understand where you're coming from!

Well said!

I will hunt as much as I can...without bankrupting the outfitters I need. In fact I will try a little harder to get in a hunt or two, on terms they can operate under.
To you outfitters; there is a segment of the hunting population that is still growing - BOWHUNTING. Most bowhunters are still waiting to take that first African plains game with their bows, also a mountain goat and a red stag.
Put up a few stands and train your guides and PH's to shoot a bow and guide bowhunters. Advertise as a bowhunting (or black powder, if you prefer) destination.

And one small peeve of mine, while we're meeting here in the MIDDLE...why isn't every Agent, Outfitter, PH, guide and office administrator a SCI measurer? It only takes a few hours and your hunters will be better served.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
Bloomer:

I'm not trying to discount what you are trying to say, it's just that I didn't understand what it was. The CAPITALS kind of got to me and I'm not sure of the definitions of OUTFITTER, etc.

As the world stands now, and with the limited resources I have, I must deal in the micro and not the macro. I can't fix any damn thing more than what I get by opening my pocketbook. My "bully pulpit" is about as big as my toilet seat.

That said, since I'm into hunting in Africa, Alaska, etc., until I die, I'm not about to try to rip off someone because I can. The worm will turn and I may be the feast instead of the feaster??? Being fair is a moral command, a religious promise and a practical way to maintain good relationships (with folks in the hunting industry).

I'm not about to disclose e-mails to various outfitters, booking agents, etc., but if they want to do so, let them have at it.

I think you'll see that we've mutually discussed the present economic conditions and I've asked what they can do and still survive and make a buck. They have been quite receptive, honest and understanding of my limited funds, their need to sell something, the buyer's market, good will, the need to be around next year, etc.

I'm quite confident that the pendulum will swing. The folks I contacted are professionals. I hope they will be still around when I again negotiate, albeit, in the future, but eventually, with the seller in the driver's seat.

I doubt that a single seller (P.H., outfitter or agent) doubts that I, or many like me, will be around when they get dealt the good card.... and I hope they will remember that I only wanted a good deal, not a rape.

Very well stated JudgeG...Thanks for sharing your experiences! ...

I wrote out my inquiry very carefully! It was my intent to bring much thought into what will become of our future in regards to CHANGE...Never did I purport to have the answer, but to create a welcoming environment of sorts where HUNTERS and PH/OUTFITTERS can discuss their concerns and possibly help others to better understand the industry's climate due to the forth-coming events!

I believe this dialogue no matter how big or small may benefit the hunter and outfitter in some way, for these two entities make-up the bottom-line in a thriving economy or failing economy!

As I understand what you've shared here... negotiating may very well be very promising and the wave of the future to keep our PH/OUTFITTERS in business and ride out the tide!

Yes, its free enterprise as one poster said...geez that's automatic! Supply and demand!

But the sooner we see more OUTFITTERS offering cheaper prices with nominal/modest profits "maybe" more hunters will respond and purchase hunts! Maybe volume will help?...Hmmm...I don't know!

Just makes sense to me, but I don't have the knowledgeable details they have and their price structure!...Hey, that's none of my business!

All I know is I see "considerably less" hunters going and if less hunters going, then one day there will be "considerably less" PH/OUTFITTERS in business! I didn't make up the rules.

So that's why I inquired and created this post!

Its not them against us...In fact this thread is here to hopefully have us to STAND WITH THEM...We want to hunt...period!

Its how do we survive/thrive the events to come in mutual benefit?

You help to get very DIFFICULT things like this done by educating each other!

I appreciate your response and I feel a great that many others will too!

As this thread is starting to finally get under way as you can see from the last couple posters!

I'm not here to monitor this thing!

This is for the HUNTERS and PH/OUTFITTER!

Good day your HONOR...

quote:

Originally posted by DAL:
I will hunt as much as I can...without bankrupting the outfitters I need. In fact I will try a little harder to get in a hunt or two, on terms they can operate under.
To you outfitters; there is a segment of the hunting population that is still growing - BOWHUNTING. Most bowhunters are still waiting to take that first African plains game with their bows, also a mountain goat and a red stag.
Put up a few stands and train your guides and PH's to shoot a bow and guide bowhunters. Advertise as a bowhunting (or black powder, if you prefer) destination.

And one small peeve of mine, while we're meeting here in the MIDDLE...why isn't every Agent, Outfitter, PH, guide and office administrator a SCI measurer? It only takes a few hours and your hunters will be better served.

Powerful suggestion to bring to the table for discussion...I believe our PH/OUTFITTERS want to hear us and vice-versa...So we can work together and make things happen! If the times are changing we all gotta change too in order to thrive in this industry...

Atually, like in any forms of life, things work quite well between hunters and outfitters.

The problem arises when one side decides to take the other for a ride.

Hunters who want to go on a 5-star hunt, but want to pay for a 2-star hunt.

Hunters who have a shopping list, with specific animals and specific sizes, already in their pockets before they go on a hunt.

Hunters who are totally unprepared for their hunt for one reason or another. Like not knowing their rifle well enough, it is too big a bore for what they wish to hunt. Not being physically able to hunt on foot.

Hunters who shoot animals they do not have money for, promising the PH they will pay as soon as they get back. Then disappear from the face of the earth soon after.

Hunters who think they can do themselves a favour and save money at the same time, by becoming "booking agents" as soon as they are home.

Hunters who think they can save the outfitter's commission by booking directly with a PH.

Booking agents and outfitters who KNOW they can not deliver what they promise the hunter when he books his hunt, but make promises to the contrary, just to make sure they get the booking.

Booking agents and outfitters who send hunters to areas where they know certain animals are not found there, conveniently forgetting to mention this little fact to the client. Tanzania is a great place for this, as many species are only found in certain areas.

Booking agents and outfitters who over shoot the concessions they hunt.

Booking agents and outfitters who demand money from the client well in advance, employ a PH to conduct their hunts for them, and then conveniently don't pay them for months afterwards.

I could go on and on about the horror stories one hears in Africa. Most of which never come out for one reason or another.

At the end of the day, most hunters, as most outfitters, are normal honest people.

The few rogues are the ones who ruin it for for us.

Late-bloomer - just adding some comedy on my first post

All jokes aside though, I think that if you have been paying attention to the pricing from outfitters especially from Zimbabwe you will see that outfitters are doing their fair share of meeting in the middle for hunters. I do not think that you can ask for much more than what is already being done by outfitters and how they are slashing prices for the exact reason of trying to meet clients in the middle. Heck there are some on this forum even offerring FREE hunts! If someone can not afford the discounted prices that are being offerred now, I do not know what else could be done by the outfitters without loosing out on more profits, which in turn would put them out of business anyway.

Keep in mind that times and economy may change for the worse as they are now, but costs for areas, food, drinks, fuel, trophy fees and equipment does not come down in price. Outfitters still have the same operating costs if not higher now no matter how bad the economy is. Outfitters that are feeling the economy the worst have slashed their prices and you can not ask them to do much more than what they are already doing. I guess it depends on what you consider the middle.

Some PH's/outfits will fold, many will not and continue to offer a variety of hunts.

Some of us that were on the edge of being able to afford to hunt in the various African countries or guided hunts in Alaska or sheep hunts in the lower 48, will have to be content with what is in our own backyard.

The folks that could afford many of the big dollar exotic hunts, such as Markhor, or lion, will continue to be able to do so and the outfitters offering those will stay in business.

Those that couldn't afford premium hunts will not likely be able to do so in the near future and those catering, will likely fold.

The middle ground will be tricky and will depend on the hunter's fortitude or specialization, resulting in those outfitter's survival.

It's all supply and demand. Hey if the entire global economy tanks, what's it gonna matter what someone in Africa (or here in Alaska) is selling a hunt for when you can't feed your kids? If it just tanks here in the U.S., I'm sure some outfitters will be able to survive offering hunts to European, Australian and Asian clients, but many will not.

If the entire global economy collapses, does it really matter what any can afford as a luxury, including hunts in foreign lands?

quote:

Originally posted by safari12:
Late-bloomer - just adding some comedy on my first post

All jokes aside though, I think that if you have been paying attention to the pricing from outfitters especially from Zimbabwe you will see that outfitters are doing their fair share of meeting in the middle for hunters. I do not think that you can ask for much more than what is already being done by outfitters and how they are slashing prices for the exact reason of trying to meet clients in the middle. Heck there are some on this forum even offerring FREE hunts! If someone can not afford the discounted prices that are being offerred now, I do not know what else could be done by the outfitters without loosing out on more profits, which in turn would put them out of business anyway.

Keep in mind that times and economy may change for the worse as they are now, but costs for areas, food, drinks, fuel, trophy fees and equipment does not come down in price. Outfitters still have the same operating costs if not higher now no matter how bad the economy is. Outfitters that are feeling the economy the worst have slashed their prices and you can not ask them to do much more than what they are already doing. I guess it depends on what you consider the middle.

Adam:

Well put.

You folks, of course, are one of those whom I have contacted. It won't work this year, but the honesty and courtesy exhibited by your representive(s) will certainly encourage me to someday be your paying guest, worm turned or not.

All these situations: "meet in the middle", "are there deals" or "these are our prices...take it or leave it"..are just good old captialism at work!

Now the "African safari industry" does hold a somewhat "unfair advantage" over safari hunters.....they do have something of a monopoly on African hunting. If I don't like the pricing on African safaris....were do I go?

Yes, I can can hunt Brown bears in Alaska, Marco Polo sheep is Asia, etc...but I can only hunt African DR in Africa! So I MUST hunt with an African PH/Outfitter!

The great Noble Prize winning economist, Milton Friedman was fond of saying..."Every person acts in their own preceived self interest"

Truer word have never been spoken..

Bottom line....both the hunter and the outfitter/PH are going to do what they think is in their own personal best interest based on the current economic situation.

Me? I think now is a good time to book an African safari

I have read with great interest your post and feel that you have a valid point. As a safari operator, I already meet in the middle, any further, and it becomes impossible. What we have to understand is that there are some outfitters ( private land owners etc ) that are able to offer discounts ( large ) as they own the land and the game, however, most concession holders are over a barrel as the councils/ parks they deal with are not willing to budge despite what we all know is true, this makes larger discounts impossible. These discounts will have a negative effect on how much an outfitter can put back into his area and what that will inevitaby do to the wildlife, I am hanging on despite being a relatively new outfitter and quite young, I see a light at the end, but honestly, as 'wardens' of the african wildlife, we have to be honest with each other and not jump on the wagon and dig the knife in any further, as operators, we have offered several discounts, however, never do we get offered a discounted commission from the agent, has anyone heard of an agent saying" just flick me half my cut"?? let's be fair.

quote:

Originally posted by safari12:
Late-bloomer - just adding some comedy on my first post

All jokes aside though, I think that if you have been paying attention to the pricing from outfitters especially from Zimbabwe you will see that outfitters are doing their fair share of meeting in the middle for hunters. I do not think that you can ask for much more than what is already being done by outfitters and how they are slashing prices for the exact reason of trying to meet clients in the middle. Heck there are some on this forum even offerring FREE hunts! If someone can not afford the discounted prices that are being offerred now, I do not know what else could be done by the outfitters without loosing out on more profits, which in turn would put them out of business anyway.

Keep in mind that times and economy may change for the worse as they are now, but costs for areas, food, drinks, fuel, trophy fees and equipment does not come down in price. Outfitters still have the same operating costs if not higher now no matter how bad the economy is. Outfitters that are feeling the economy the worst have slashed their prices and you can not ask them to do much more than what they are already doing. I guess it depends on what you consider the middle.

I completely agree with what you share here! And that's why I've stated in my posts that it would be in EVERYONE's best interest if we see more PH/OUTFITTERS doing whatever they're able to...but then again there's the other issues as you make mention of...Great!

Maybe us hunters need to concentrate our efforts at only one or two concessions instead of taking different animals in different areas to save on diesel, etc.? Maybe we need to hunt more Management hunts instead of all Trophy hunts?

We as hunters have to make concessions and compromises as well! And that's why as JudgeG said NEGOTIATIONS! I've been doing that myself with two PH/OUTFITTERS right now with very encouraging results! I'm just trying to get the ball rolling for others aa well...Hey this ain't for me alone, its for the hunting community why this thread was set-up this way!

It gives hunters a better perspective on things and why and how come certain things can be done and why it just won't happen!

As far as the jokes hey give me a break! I wasn't born yesterday it was the day before yesterday! And clowns are everywhere in fact I'm known to be one myself! I've tackeled bigger issues and more formidble opponents in my life! I don't let derogatory issues bother me one bit! I don't have enough space in my brain to deal with it nor give folk the pleasure of thinking they mean jack to me! Either you got some class to add something to the table or you don't...In time hunters make up their own minds on who they will use and who they won't even bother with, we ain't stupid people...maybe a bit poor but not stupid at least give us that much! These type of agents have already shown their TRUE COLORS that's not my problem...In fact, its a pissing shame!

I've been civil from the beginning...got no flies on me brother...

Have a good one...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Atually, like in any forms of life, things work quite well between hunters and outfitters.

The problem arises when one side decides to take the other for a ride.

Hunters who want to go on a 5-star hunt, but want to pay for a 2-star hunt.

Hunters who have a shopping list, with specific animals and specific sizes, already in their pockets before they go on a hunt.

Hunters who are totally unprepared for their hunt for one reason or another. Like not knowing their rifle well enough, it is too big a bore for what they wish to hunt. Not being physically able to hunt on foot.

Hunters who shoot animals they do not have money for, promising the PH they will pay as soon as they get back. Then disappear from the face of the earth soon after.

Hunters who think they can do themselves a favour and save money at the same time, by becoming "booking agents" as soon as they are home.

Hunters who think they can save the outfitter's commission by booking directly with a PH.

Booking agents and outfitters who KNOW they can not deliver what they promise the hunter when he books his hunt, but make promises to the contrary, just to make sure they get the booking.

Booking agents and outfitters who send hunters to areas where they know certain animals are not found there, conveniently forgetting to mention this little fact to the client. Tanzania is a great place for this, as many species are only found in certain areas.

Booking agents and outfitters who over shoot the concessions they hunt.

Booking agents and outfitters who demand money from the client well in advance, employ a PH to conduct their hunts for them, and then conveniently don't pay them for months afterwards.

I could go on and on about the horror stories one hears in Africa. Most of which never come out for one reason or another.

At the end of the day, most hunters, as most outfitters, are normal honest people.

The few rogues are the ones who ruin it for for us.

Well said Saeed...

quote:

Originally posted by martypieters:
I have read with great interest your post and feel that you have a valid point. As a safari operator, I already meet in the middle, any further, and it becomes impossible. What we have to understand is that there are some outfitters ( private land owners etc ) that are able to offer discounts ( large ) as they own the land and the game, however, most concession holders are over a barrel as the councils/ parks they deal with are not willing to budge despite what we all know is true, this makes larger discounts impossible. These discounts will have a negative effect on how much an outfitter can put back into his area and what that will inevitaby do to the wildlife, I am hanging on despite being a relatively new outfitter and quite young, I see a light at the end, but honestly, as 'wardens' of the african wildlife, we have to be honest with each other and not jump on the wagon and dig the knife in any further, as operators, we have offered several discounts, however, never do we get offered a discounted commission from the agent, has anyone heard of an agent saying" just flick me half my cut"?? let's be fair.

Thanks this needed to be heard...

Post your hunt info maybe a hunter will be very interested in working with you and/or your agent! Find another agent if you need to and you dictate the terms, if not many of us don't mind dealing straight with you folks...do what works for you...Time differences over the phone or via email just ain't that bad!

Hey this is all about making it work...Not everyone is going to survive this thing on both sides of the fence but we can damn sure try to make the crash a bit less gut-wrenching by supporting each other! Hunters here desperately want to know what's going on because when one is in the know, TRUST begins to develop and that's what sells hunts first and foremost, whether good economy or bad!

I wish you only the best and welcome more contributions here!

quote:

Originally posted by DPhillips:
Some PH's/outfits will fold, many will not and continue to offer a variety of hunts.

Some of us that were on the edge of being able to afford to hunt in the various African countries or guided hunts in Alaska or sheep hunts in the lower 48, will have to be content with what is in our own backyard.

The folks that could afford many of the big dollar exotic hunts, such as Markhor, or lion, will continue to be able to do so and the outfitters offering those will stay in business.

Those that couldn't afford premium hunts will not likely be able to do so in the near future and those catering, will likely fold.

The middle ground will be tricky and will depend on the hunter's fortitude or specialization, resulting in those outfitter's survival.

It's all supply and demand. Hey if the entire global economy tanks, what's it gonna matter what someone in Africa (or here in Alaska) is selling a hunt for when you can't feed your kids? If it just tanks here in the U.S., I'm sure some outfitters will be able to survive offering hunts to European, Australian and Asian clients, but many will not.

If the entire global economy collapses, does it really matter what any can afford as a luxury, including hunts in foreign lands?

Well said and that's the bottom-line...Thanks for sharing...

Thanks " Squeeze", these sort of topics really open up conversation, but often there are some that do not want to hear it out loud.

Saeed hit it on the head, thanks

martin@bulembisafaris.co.zwmartin pieters

quote:

Originally posted by martypieters:
Thanks " Squeeze", these sort of topics really open up conversation, but often there are some that do not want to hear it out loud.

Saeed hit it on the head, thanks

martin@bulembisafaris.co.zwmartin pieters

Yep on both accounts...

Hey there's a bigger problem than all of our puny egos all put together! Its time to man-up and let your TRUE colors shine!!!

Never been one to let others dictate my life and I ain't starting now...There's a lot of very good booking agents and PH/OUTFITTERS with lots of INTEGRITY!!! We have many on this site right here!!! I hope our PH/OUTFITTERS will be sharing their thoughts for that's why this thread was created as well!

No one is being singled-out here...

Rather we can all be of some benefit and part of the answer...to whatever the future holds...The answers will not come over-night but preparation can on;y be had if we have some type of realistic-joint perspective on things!

And...

Saeed set this MEETING in order and it should behoove us all to take note! Now that's what I call STRAIGHT-SHOOTING than clowns who enjoy shooting from the hip in waist-deep you know what! Let's move-on we ain't got time nor the patience for that stuff here!

The FOUNDATION has now been established, many thanks Saeed! Gosh, this is why he's afforded us this great forum to the benefit of all not ...SOME...THANK YOU Saeed from all the grateful ones who now have a VOICE...

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:
All these situations: "meet in the middle", "are there deals" or "these are our prices...take it or leave it"..are just good old captialism at work!

Now the "African safari industry" does hold a somewhat "unfair advantage" over safari hunters.....they do have something of a monopoly on African hunting. If I don't like the pricing on African safaris....were do I go?

Yes, I can can hunt Brown bears in Alaska, Marco Polo sheep is Asia, etc...but I can only hunt African DR in Africa! So I MUST hunt with an African PH/Outfitter!

The great Noble Prize winning economist, Milton Friedman was fond of saying..."Every person acts in their own preceived self interest"

Truer word have never been spoken..

Bottom line....both the hunter and the outfitter/PH are going to do what they think is in their own personal best interest based on the current economic situation.

Me? I think now is a good time to book an African safari

Well said, thanks for contributing!

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:

quote:

Originally posted by DPhillips:
Some PH's/outfits will fold, many will not and continue to offer a variety of hunts.

Some of us that were on the edge of being able to afford to hunt in the various African countries or guided hunts in Alaska or sheep hunts in the lower 48, will have to be content with what is in our own backyard.

The folks that could afford many of the big dollar exotic hunts, such as Markhor, or lion, will continue to be able to do so and the outfitters offering those will stay in business.

Those that couldn't afford premium hunts will not likely be able to do so in the near future and those catering, will likely fold.

The middle ground will be tricky and will depend on the hunter's fortitude or specialization, resulting in those outfitter's survival.

It's all supply and demand. Hey if the entire global economy tanks, what's it gonna matter what someone in Africa (or here in Alaska) is selling a hunt for when you can't feed your kids? If it just tanks here in the U.S., I'm sure some outfitters will be able to survive offering hunts to European, Australian and Asian clients, but many will not.

If the entire global economy collapses, does it really matter what any can afford as a luxury, including hunts in foreign lands?

Well said and that's the bottom-line...Thanks for sharing...

Glad you enjoyed it, I was drunk when I wrote it... and this...

In all seriousness, we've seen a lot of start up companies and one's on the fringe of being legitimate. If the continued recession/depression lasts for the year, those guys will go out of business or start working for the more established firms. Outside of a global depression or some stupid move by any country (including the US), I think the hunting industry will survive. It might have to scale down slightly, but will be around when things pick up. Just like the 70's and 80's, hell, even the 30's... Remember, after these downturns in the global economies, a new "golden age" of hunting asserts itself.

quote:

Originally posted by DPhillips:

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:

quote:

Originally posted by DPhillips:
Some PH's/outfits will fold, many will not and continue to offer a variety of hunts.

Some of us that were on the edge of being able to afford to hunt in the various African countries or guided hunts in Alaska or sheep hunts in the lower 48, will have to be content with what is in our own backyard.

The folks that could afford many of the big dollar exotic hunts, such as Markhor, or lion, will continue to be able to do so and the outfitters offering those will stay in business.

Those that couldn't afford premium hunts will not likely be able to do so in the near future and those catering, will likely fold.

The middle ground will be tricky and will depend on the hunter's fortitude or specialization, resulting in those outfitter's survival.

It's all supply and demand. Hey if the entire global economy tanks, what's it gonna matter what someone in Africa (or here in Alaska) is selling a hunt for when you can't feed your kids? If it just tanks here in the U.S., I'm sure some outfitters will be able to survive offering hunts to European, Australian and Asian clients, but many will not.

If the entire global economy collapses, does it really matter what any can afford as a luxury, including hunts in foreign lands?

Well said and that's the bottom-line...Thanks for sharing...

Glad you enjoyed it, I was drunk when I wrote it... and this...

In all seriousness, we've seen a lot of start up companies and one's on the fringe of being legitimate. If the continued recession/depression lasts for the year, those guys will go out of business or start working for the more established firms. Outside of a global depression or some stupid move by any country (including the US), I think the hunting industry will survive. It might have to scale down slightly, but will be around when things pick up. Just like the 70's and 80's, hell, even the 30's... Remember, after these downturns in the global economies, a new "golden age" of hunting asserts itself.

Ba-Bing-Bam-Boom...

Drunk or no drunk well said!...

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Atually, like in any forms of life, things work quite well between hunters and outfitters.

The problem arises when one side decides to take the other for a ride.

Hunters who want to go on a 5-star hunt, but want to pay for a 2-star hunt.

Hunters who have a shopping list, with specific animals and specific sizes, already in their pockets before they go on a hunt.

Hunters who are totally unprepared for their hunt for one reason or another. Like not knowing their rifle well enough, it is too big a bore for what they wish to hunt. Not being physically able to hunt on foot.

Hunters who shoot animals they do not have money for, promising the PH they will pay as soon as they get back. Then disappear from the face of the earth soon after.

Hunters who think they can do themselves a favour and save money at the same time, by becoming "booking agents" as soon as they are home.

Hunters who think they can save the outfitter's commission by booking directly with a PH.

Booking agents and outfitters who KNOW they can not deliver what they promise the hunter when he books his hunt, but make promises to the contrary, just to make sure they get the booking.

Booking agents and outfitters who send hunters to areas where they know certain animals are not found there, conveniently forgetting to mention this little fact to the client. Tanzania is a great place for this, as many species are only found in certain areas.

Booking agents and outfitters who over shoot the concessions they hunt.

Booking agents and outfitters who demand money from the client well in advance, employ a PH to conduct their hunts for them, and then conveniently don't pay them for months afterwards.

I could go on and on about the horror stories one hears in Africa. Most of which never come out for one reason or another.

At the end of the day, most hunters, as most outfitters, are normal honest people.

The few rogues are the ones who ruin it for for us.

Well said Saeed...

+1 from me.

I only hope to get what I pay for in life - no more no less.