A Close friend of Mine Who we have been hunting Partners for ten years. He went to Africa this year without me.He just came back
and has taken after Drying what should be the #1
Lion taken with a Crossbow. Also he has taken a Leopard should be #2 with a Crossbow.The animals have been scored by a Master scorer for SCI . The hunters Name is Butch Meilinger of
North American Fair Chase and International.
He was hunting with INGOGO Safaris of all days South Africa.I will post pictures as soon as I get them.

Hope he had someone with a 45/70 or an XP100 in 7mm BR as backup!
Peter.

I liked that , yes he Got backed up by a 416 rem.

Why the backup?

Bexcause it is the law.Even if he did not have back-up he would probably post that he did.Otherwise he is admiting guilt.

You also have to have 2 Game wardens and 2 pro hunters.
Heres why I was told that the leopard charged
they were using Dogs ,the leopard came untreed
but the dogs save them. If they only had a Crossbow ,someone would shurely die or be dead.

In which country was the hunt done ??

L

Blaser93, hmmm...I didn't know there was a charge. Just goes to show that this kind of stuff can happen when you go after DG with a perhaps less than adequate weapon. And, by less than adequate, I mean for all circumstances. Not knocking your friend, but I guess the state laws are there for a reason! What's the story on the lion? Leopards will rearrange you a lot, but lions can kill you as I understand it!
Peter.
Peter.

How many lions and leopards have actually been killed with a crossbow?

I didn't know that SCI is now scoring lions taken in RSA. Must have missed that in Safari Times.

Why would it matter if he has killed the #1 of this and #2 of that?

I thought the idea was to enjoy the WHOLE hunt, and not be governed by a measuring tape.

Killing an exceptional trophy is nothing but chance, and nothing else.

Also, if this has been taken in South Africa, I bet the so called PH knows both the lion and leopard by their pet names

quote:

Originally posted by blaser93:
If they only had a Crossbow ,someone would shurely die or be dead.

I quess it's a good reason as a hunter to be properly armed and not expect someone else to save his butt!

Saeed, I guess he taped them for the same reason some here shoot their cape buff at 120 yrds + and call it " dangerous game " hunting. At 20 yrds its hunting dangerous game. At 120 yrds its shooting an animal that has the potential to be dangerous. Its all in how you look at it........................JJ

I did a search on INGOGO Safaris.Butch Meilinger is running the USA office for them.

In the Alldays area you will not find a free roaming Lion, so it looks canned again.

Leopards are free roaming, but hunting them with dogs, totally unethical to me.

If you only hunt to get the biggest trophy possible, you are not a hunter, you are a trophy gatherer.

There is nothing wrong to try and take the best possible trophy while you are hunting, the ethics and sportmanship must always be no1

There is also nothing wrong with registering trophies, it gives us all an idea of what the trophy quality is and we can proof to the greenies that we do not hunt out the exceptional tropies.

You are right ,It's the experince of the hunt .
The animals happened to be as big as the were.
I think as of june next year ,not shure they are stopping lion hunts in South Africa.
He did'nt go after a #1 or a book animal he just wanted a representitve of each. This was his second trip for Leopard and yes he sat in Blinds just like everyone else.The dogs were a plus. I agee that I would not kill a Lion in south Africa ,thats not me . Same as in the US I don't like most Ranches in Texas.
But anything done with a Bow or Crossbow is a
Acomplishment in it self no matter who you are.

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
Saeed, I guess he taped them for the same reason some here shoot their cape buff at 120 yrds + and call it " dangerous game " hunting. At 20 yrds its hunting dangerous game. At 120 yrds its shooting an animal that has the potential to be dangerous. Its all in how you look at it........................JJ

The furthest I have shot a buffalo was measured aftewards at over 340 yards!

And I can tell you that was one of the most dangerous buffalo hunts I have ever had too! I almost stepped on a black mamba in one of the korongos as we were trying to get close to them.

So don't tell me it is not dangerous hunting buffalo at long range

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Why would it matter if he has killed the #1 of this and #2 of that?

I thought the idea was to enjoy the WHOLE hunt, and not be governed by a measuring tape.

Killing an exceptional trophy is nothing but chance, and nothing else.

Also, if this has been taken in South Africa, I bet the so called PH knows both the lion and leopard by their pet names

Though I do agree that the experience, the enjoyment, the connection with the outdoors is THE most important part of any hunt, I could not disagree more that CHANCE is what determines the taking of an exceptional animal.

I know many who kill exceptional free ranging animals. Proper reseach of areas, passing on lesser animals for mature animals, and factors such as conditioning and desire seem to be common denominators.

Many that I know, kill record book animals and don't even enter the animals into B&C or SCI. That seems to me that they are not motivated by building their name or "bragging rights"

To wait for a true expectional trophy takes more than running out there and seeing "how many we can shoot"

The latter just seems to take money....

Saeed-Amen to both your posts here.

Hunting is an art, not a science. It is a passion, not a job. It is all about the experience, not about a trophy. How many times have any of us gone hunting and come home without a shot taken? I certainly have. And the fact that I came home empty handed did not diminish the experience at all.

This is not a game of golf. In fact, it is not a game at all, as many people believe it to be. And it is really not a "sport" in today's sense of the term. It is much more than that; call it spiritual or instinctive, there is some higher calling.

With respect to going after dangerous game with a crossbow with mandated backup by a rifle is not for me. If you want to hunt with a crossbow, fine and dandy. But be prepared to deal with the results of its limitations.

The fact that a rifle is required seems to indicate that there is recognition that a crossbow is not an effective tool against dangerous game. No matter how well you shoot with it.

To claim a trophy under these circumstances if to me pretty hollow. I could hunt with a spear, hit an animal with a spear, or a throwing knife for that matter, and have the PH "finish" it with a rifle. Have I the right to claim a successful hunt? In my book, no. But that is just me.

I care about the game I hunt. These are not trophies-they are part of life and part of my life experience. You have the God given priviledge to take something from this world, then that something should become a part of you.

Records are fine, but they should be an afterthought-something that is not the goal of a hunt where the hunt itself is just a means to an end.

And I feel that the different "classifications" on records flys in the face of hunting. Dead is dead, and the method used should not matter in the least. And if you are not prepared to deal directly with the consequences of the method used, then maybe it's time to rethink your selection of weapons.

The sad thing is, that if SCI estblished a new category for world records for hunting with spoon and fork, there would be people signing up tomorrow. I wonder if SCI would consider adding "feather duster" to its record classifications?

quote:

The fact that a rifle is required seems to indicate that there is recognition that a crossbow is not an effective tool against dangerous game.

To claim a trophy under these circumstances if to me pretty hollow. I could hunt with a spear, hit an animal with a spear, or a throwing knife for that matter, and have the PH "finish" it with a rifle. Have I the right to claim a successful hunt? In my book, no. But that is just me.

I feel that the different "classifications" on records flys in the face of hunting. Dead is dead, and the method used should not matter in the least. And if you are not prepared to deal directly with the consequences of the method used, then maybe it's time to rethink your selection of weapons.

Amen, Jim, give 'em hell, well said.

Saeed, I'm not sure about the hammering smiley faces, but did I hit a nerve ????

There is no doubt Africa is a dangerous place. Look at Wendell and his bug bite, he came near to dying. But we take bugs, snakes, spiders and other injurous things as part of just being in Africa.

I don't understand not getting as close as possible to buff because thats what makes it dangerous. If all I had was a 340 yard shot at a buff he would live to see another day.

I guess what I am trying to say is shooting dangerous game just to shoot it is not why we hunt dangerous game to begin with. We take the risk of getting close enough to make it dangerous because thats why we are there. Its the element of danger. Thats why the fees are higher, why we are prouder of a 38 inch buff that died at our feet than a 46 incher that was shot at 150 yards and fell over.

I know every year you shoot lots of buff and thats good. You have been blessed thru hard work to be able to afford it. I just don't see how a buff at 340 yrds is dangerous, and if its not why shoot it to begin with..............JJ

Manion- I hope you do not consider me rude but the statement that,"the fact that a rifle is involved should indicate that a bow is not an adaquate weapon", does not fairly address the issue.A rifle toting PH is mandatory on any DG hunt.That includes when the client is packing a rifle as well as a bow.Does that also mean that a rifle is not an adaquate weapon for hunting DG.

Many DG animals are taken cleanly by bowhunters with one-shot kills.Many DG animals go down in a fusilade of lead from both PH and client and game scouts on hunts where a rifle is the weapon of choice.

There is lots of good advice here from people who know rifles and hunting very well.When some of these same folks try to make small talk about something they have absolutely no knowledge of, they just come off sounding stupid.

Please contribute when you have some legitimate information to convey and try to limit the ignorant and biased remarks, or run the risk of having the facts pointed out in contradiction.

I don't know why exactly certain outfitters have to continously come on board and bash other operations. Seems to be a systemic problem at this site. Quite conterproductive IMO. Ingogo Safaris is a quality operation and has a solid reputation. If you don't know them, don't speculate. While a crossbow is certainly not my "cup of tea" (as I operate a bowhunting company) and I'm sure the lion in question is probably the only lion on record for crossbows, what's the point in posting on it? If you look up lion and leopard killed with this type of implement, I'm sure you'll find less than a handful so the point, if there is one, is non-existent. BTW, leopard hunting with dogs is the most physically demanding hunt I've ever done. Extremely demanding and at least as ethical as shooting one from an ambush position over a bait with reostat and microphone in place. Give me a break!

Ken Moody

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

The fact that a rifle is required seems to indicate that there is recognition that a crossbow is not an effective tool against dangerous game. No matter how well you shoot with it.

To claim a trophy under these circumstances if to me pretty hollow. I could hunt with a spear, hit an animal with a spear, or a throwing knife for that matter, and have the PH "finish" it with a rifle. Have I the right to claim a successful hunt? In my book, no. But that is just me.

Jim,

I have to differ with you on this.

I hunted cape buffalo with a bow this year. I did not get one, but when I was sitting 6 feet from a 3 year old bull with my bow I did not feel like I was missing anything as far as quality of the experience. That young bull was eating the bush I was hiding behind! I could hear his breath, smell his breath and feel his breath on my cheek. There was a cow eating from the same bush about ten feet away. When they got spooked by an elephant about 20 yards away, I was disappointed, but definitely exhiliarated by the experience. I would not trade that experience for the two buffs I did get with a rifle.

By the way, I was hunting with my bow after having taken 10 shots from a 416 Rem to put down my previous buff. Neither I nor the PH thought that it was a "stunt" to keep trying to get a shot with the bow.

I had demonstrated to the PH on the previous carcases that I could get through-and-through penetration with my arrows - all that counts after that is shot placement, just like with a rifle.

All big animals that can bite you or kick you hard are dangerous. So if you come across a fine specimen at long range and get a clean shot why not. Are you considered a whimp if you do ?

jnd,

I have not brought this down to the level of name calling.

I don't know if you have been to Africa or not. If you have your response suprises me all the more.

More especially if its a fine specimen it should be given the respect to have you get as close as possible. A clean shot at long range is not what the essence of DG hunting is. Its a 2 to 3 hour stalk in among the herd. Elevated heart rate, tension and a little bit of fear on your part. Anything else is just shooting an animal that poses no threat to you. Why pay the elevated fees to essentially shoot plains game. How is that dangerous ?

If your DG hunt is all about shooting something then I can't explain it any more clearly....................JJ

Sorry if you took it personal JJ.
No I have not been to Africa but i hunt in bearcontry, so I know a little about our DG
My view of respect is to kill the animal without its even know I was there, and if i can do that with a long shot i will do that.
But we all have our different preferences and so it will always be.

jnd,

I never took anything you said personal, I just do not want this to devolve into something nasty.

I envy being able to hunt in Sweden. Its on my list of countries to visit. After all Sweden is the birthplace of my all time favorite rifle cartridge the 6.5x55 ...............JJ

Don,

Thanks for the reply. And for your civility.

Part of my point gets back to what hunting is all about - the experience. Some of my best hunts of the past were conducted without a shot being fired.

We can differ in our opinions on this, and I certainly respect your opinion. I am certain that you are a hunter that is willing to go toe to toe with a buff without the expectation of backup. And certainly not the need for it. regardless of the mandate of a rifle covering you, if you are willing to go in there as if there were not going to be any support, to me that is the spirit of a hunter. I very much doubt you personally would be out there boasting of a world record when you had an army of rifles in support which ended up ending the hunt for you. I get that from your posts I have seen on this board. A lot of people (present company excluded) find it very hard to be honest with themselves, and if they can't do that they can never be honest to the rest of the world.

As for the method, we can agree to disagree. By the way, I have bow hunted white tail here in the US, and while I am certainly not as experienced as most here, I do have some background on the subject. And a lot of appreciation for the difficulty.

Regarding eyedoc's comments, I fail to see how expressing one's views is somehow seen as a factual recitation. And it seems a little disengenous to me to claim one if not wanting to come across as rude when calling them stupid and ignorant in the same breath. If it was your intention not to be rude, I'd sure hate to see you when you intended to do so.

It was my intention to express my views on the subject and to support them with observations I had made. If expressing one's views is deemed to be against the rules of imparting legitimate information, then I will certainly abide by those rules. However, I have not seen any such limitation either in writing or in practice here. If I was out of line, I am certain the moderators will make me aware of that fact.

I am begining to think this post was not,a good Idea.
But one thing that I like about this site is that you are free to voice your opion.
I thank Saeed for that .

Manion- I am sorry for my bluntness, you seem a reasonable man.I deliberately did NOT call you stupid, rather I stated that making a stupid statement would make you appear that way to others.Still, I could have chosen my words more carefully and diplomatically.For that I apologize.

On several points I whole - heartedly agree with you.For example,if I took a DG animal with a bowshot that had to be followed by a rifle,I would never take my trophy photos with bow in hand.The introduction of the rifle would in essence spoil the event for me.

Secondly, the reason many of us choose to bowhunt rather than rifle hunt is because we value the hunt experience (up close and personal)more than the kill.

I will try to focus more on the aspects that we have in common but freely admit I will defend my bowhunting like a rabid dog.

One last time for me ,Both cats never had one bullet fired at them the both were killed with arrows.

I've noticed when someone doesn't have much knowledge of archery hunting they usually start their posts with a jaded comment about how it is a stunt hunt, unethical, etc., etc.
Truth be told ask anyone whom knows anything about crossbows about their effective range. It is even more limited than the compound bow that can be quite accurate at 40-50 yds while the crossbow is most effective under 30. Usually more accurate at under 30 yds than a compound as well.
I hunt with all 3 (rifle,compound,crossbow) and at times in my life have abandoned one or the other for years only to be drawn back to it. Simply because I love to shoot and hunt with all 3.
In reference to the snide comments about "pet names" for cats in RSA.I've never hunted a cat in fenced area though I wonder if somehow a leopard or lion becomes less dangerous when placed inside an enclosure and struck thru their ribs with any weapon's projectile.
I agree with Ken Moody's assesment of cat hunts with hounds. I've done alot of it here in the states, bears as well. Anyone whom opts to follow a pack of hounds on a hot trail afoot is about to learn the meaning of HARD work.

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:

we are prouder of a 38 inch buff that died at our feet than a 46 incher that was shot at 150 yards and fell over.

..............JJ

I will be feel proud EXACTLY the same for both buffs. And if I have a buff dying at my feet is because I screw something. Been there done that with a 1,200 kilos waterbuff and never ever want to go through that again and anyone prefering that rather than a stone dean buff at 100 yards enjoys danger not hunting.

Just my point of view and not neccesary the correct one...

L

A previous post referred to hunting leopard with hounds as unsporting or unethical. I don't claim to have as much African experience as most here, with 5 safaries and only one leopard hunt, but it was with hounds in Namibia. We took the leopard on the tenth day. It was a very demanding hunt physically. We tracked and lost two or three cats, and on the tenth day, the leopard we took escaped once before being tracked again. It exploded out of the rocks and was killed with two shots from a 30-06.

Maybe this was not a typical leopard hunt, or maybe my concept of sporting is different from others'. I consider myself an ethical person, and would appreciate respectful and constructive comments on this issue.
Incidentally, I'm 63 and have been hunting for 47 years, in Alaska, Montana, Australia, Zim, Namibia, RSA, etc. I've done a fair amount of unguided alpine stuff, and consider myself to be reasonably competent.

Lorenzo, you can hit a cape buff perfectly thru the heart and he still can make it to where you are standing, and you haven't screwed up anything.

And yes I like danger and hunting, hence the name ( and fees ) dangerous game hunting.................JJ

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


So don't tell me it is not dangerous hunting buffalo at long range

In that case, then hunting pigeons in L.A. with a pellet gun is also dangerous game hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
Saeed, I'm not sure about the hammering smiley faces, but did I hit a nerve ????

There is no doubt Africa is a dangerous place. Look at Wendell and his bug bite, he came near to dying. But we take bugs, snakes, spiders and other injurous things as part of just being in Africa.

I don't understand not getting as close as possible to buff because thats what makes it dangerous. If all I had was a 340 yard shot at a buff he would live to see another day.

I guess what I am trying to say is shooting dangerous game just to shoot it is not why we hunt dangerous game to begin with. We take the risk of getting close enough to make it dangerous because thats why we are there. Its the element of danger. Thats why the fees are higher, why we are prouder of a 38 inch buff that died at our feet than a 46 incher that was shot at 150 yards and fell over.

I know every year you shoot lots of buff and thats good. You have been blessed thru hard work to be able to afford it. I just don't see how a buff at 340 yrds is dangerous, and if its not why shoot it to begin with..............JJ

JJ_Miller,

NO JJ, you have not hit a nerve, as there isn't one for you to hit.

I hunt for my own enjoyment, not to prove to anyone the size of trophy I have shot, nor to have it glorified in some record book.

I enjoy hunting all animals, especially so buffalo and elephants.

If I follow one of these all day, and end up not being able to shoot one, that is fine. It is part of being there.

If I manage to get very close to a buffalo - which we have, on many occasions. Getting within almost touching distance. I enjoy that too. We have gotten so close to elephants on one occasion I could have touched his backside with my stretched hand.

If we follow them, and finally see them in an area where we cannot get any closer, I have no problem taking the shot.

As I mentioned, I have taken buffalo at over 340 yards. I have taken eland at over 500 yards, and a number of animals at over 400 yards.

I have also passed on shots less than 100 yards - mainly due to my not being able to be sure of making a killing shot.

Buffalo ARE dangerous game. But not as dangerous as many people make them out to be. They do become extremely dangerous mainly due to one screwing things up.

Actually all animals are dangerous. I have met people who have been seriously damaged by warthogs and impala!

So far we have managed to avoid getting into any sort of dangerous situation, despite me having shot well over a hundred "dangerous" game.

A long time ago when I first started hunting in Africa, my PH always had a small measuring tape in his pockets. He used to get it out and measure all the animals we shot.

After a while, he discovered that size did not matter for me at all. Since then he never bothered to measure anything.

In fact, we tended to choose an old animal with worn down horns over a younger one that would score very highly in a record book.

We started our own joke about SCI's INNER CIRCLE - by shooting animals that would qualify entry into our own OUTER CIRCLE.

These animals have to qualify to get into our OUTER CIRCLE.

Those with horns have to have one horn completely off. Or are completely worn out.

Elephants and warthogs qualify by having one tusk broken.

This year we shot 3 buffalo bulls that qualify. Their horns barely cleared their ears. Some had no tail - this part got me into hot water, as everyone - except me - seems to enjoy buffalo tail soup!

Why the hell would anyone eat teh tail of a buffalo when the rest of it is available is beyond me!

But, that is hunters for you, and may they never stop arguing about their hunts.

Buffalo tail and Ox Tail are very good... If you haven't tried it you are missing out.

lion....leopard....south africa....hahahahah



fair chase eh !

Jim,

I would never hunt cape buffalo with a bow unless I was backed up by a rifle. I would never hunt cape buffalo with a rifle unless I was backed up with a rifle.

I would not claim it as a bow kill if the backup proved necessary, though. My PH had specific instruction not to shoot unless he thought a life was in danger. He only pulled his rifle off his shoulder once in many close encounters with elephant and buffalo, and never shot.

I think the chances of getting charged by a buff are very small - even with a bow - but not only is it against the law to go without backup, it's just not prudent. My family depends on me. I think I can honestly say I was never afraid of the buff, even when standing inside a sleeping or feeding herd. Several times I had sleeping or feeding buff on three sides of me within 15 yards.

I will freely admit that I was frightened by elephant charges several times, though.

If you think about it, all sport hunting is a matter of drawing lines and setting artificial limits on how and when you will take an animal. You can draw your lines where you want, and let all the rest of us draw ours where we will.

Some choose water-hole hunting, some dog hunting, some rifle, bow, spear, etc. Let's not fight amongst ourselves on where to draw our personal line, let's just fight everyone who wants to disallow the choice!

I do think that paddock-hunting is giving ammunition to those that want to ban all hunting, and I find it personally distasteful. Lion hunting in RSA in particular has a bad reputation, and I would not consider any lion from RSA a trophy unless I knew all the details beyond question.