I don't know if this has been posted but here goes.

Zim eviction of farmer

I am speechless. I can't ever see why anyone would spend money hunting in that shithole of a country.

crl

It is repulsive enough to take the farms from people even when it is cloaked in legitimacy by calling it repatriation.But there can be no way to legitimize the theft of personal property such as was displayed here.This kind of display should help to insure that Mugabe has no legitimacy in anyones eyes.

IMHO if an American spends one single $ in that country you are helping to support this type of action.
Sadly some Americans will turn their eyes away from this shit an continue to hunt there...guess that speaks volumes about the type of human one needs to be to continue hunting there.

As much as I enjoyed hunting there in 2001, I'm affraid I have to agree with the above posters.

BOWHUNR

The whites will get the country back in 10 or 15 years. I hope there's something left.

I hunted Zimbabwe and will hunt Zimbabwe again in late May. My hunt will once again be with a displaced farmer and my dollars will support him and his staff that had their livelihoods taken away from them. What kind of person does that make me?

I'm sure Mugabe gets a few of my dollars as they trickle down, but my dollars and the animals I take help feed both whites and blacks. We have sent and will continue to send clothes and other goods, including medical supplies to be used by people affected by the regime.

They stay in Zimbabwe because that is their home. They stay because they know things will change eventually. Am I wrong to support them in hanging on? Ask them, the ones that have been wronged what is their humble opinion.

Dont make generalizations when you dont have any facts. If you want to critize the hunters that hunt on confiscated farms or with the PH's and outfits that deal directly and knowingly indirectly with those on the banned list, blast away.

Your "IMHO" is your IMHO and shows a lack of compassion for the people of Zimbabwe and lack of knowledge of the situation. IMHO.

Why does our US media start on this now? Call me a conspiracy theorist/black helicopter freak but there has to be a reason for this timing. They have had years to report on individual incidents much more imflamatory that this one.

I do not and will not condemn anyone who chooses to hunt in Zim, notwithstanding this kind of thing.

I won't hunt there, at least not until Mugabe and his ilk are put out of power. And, God willing, I do hope that I will live to see that happy day.

But that's my personal decision. For a lot of good, sound reasons, many hunters don't find that decision to be an easy one. Especially hunters who have personal friends on the ground in Zim, trying to preserve whatever they can of their way of life and eke out a living in what remains of their hunting industry.

As for this video, it took a lot of courage on the part of this farmer's son to stay on the farm until the bitter end, and to challenge and film the thieving scum while they stole everything his family owned.

He could easily have been murdered in cold blood, as so many others have been before him.

I would go to Zim today if I had the money/time for another hunting trip. I also would not criticize anyone who chose to (or not to) hunt there. Those are personal decisions. I do know that I did more good for the village nearest my elephant in Zim in thirteen days than Cats (bwana pothead) has done since he started posting on AR in June of this Year. If me being willing to help out the people (villagers, PH's, innocent citizens of the country) in Zim says something to you about my character that you do not find particularly appealing, well to you I say, write your opinion down, roll that piece of paper up into a little ball and stick it up your opinionated ass.

I know people on the ground in Zim. All have suffered under Mugabe. Turning my back on good people when they're already having a tough time
isn't my style. No, I don't want Mugabe to get my dollars and I do hunt private conservancies. Yes, he does get a 2% levy on my safari but that's it. Ninety eight percent goes to the people. I fly BA or SAA. So get off your high horse.

My heart goes out to these people. We've just had a family join our congregation who are in the process of immigrating to the U.S. from South Africa. They originally left Rhodesia in the late 70s and now have been forced from S.A. for the same reasons.

Disgusting. Even worse is that SA seems to be going in the same direction. The fact that 80% of my family lives there at the moment doesn't make it any better. It really is a shame as it is the most amazing place in the world, to me at least. Hopefully they will pull their heads from their asses with enough time left to stop this horrible chain of events.

Some people will still make any justification to keep supporting Mugabe.

As long as it's agood deal, Right?

I agree this is total horse shit.

I don't know the answer to this so thats why I'm asking. If I book direct with a white PH to hunt in Zim, I go to his house and stay, pay him directly and no one else how will my money benifit the Gov. ? It would seem to me that I am helping a white hunter in spite of Mugabe. Or am I looking at this the wrong way ?............JJ

What a terrible situation in that country.

I personally dont have the legal or moral authority to say or even imply that anyone ( Tom Dick or Harry ) should or should not go to Zim's to hunt or for any other reason. It remains the moral authority of each individual themselves to make an informed decision.

Having said that I am curious as to whether any of our good AR USA guests have ever made any moves to help towards bringing Mugabe and henchmen to account. The reason I mention the USA is because they are proberbly the ONLY country on earth with the POWER and resorces to see an end to Mugabe, most other counties including (lily livered NZ) dont have the guts or the power to do a damn thing about it. In fact if the going ever got tough in NZ I doubt if we could militarily fight our way out of a wet paper bag (-:

Have any of our USA guests ever written to or emailed their local congressmen and posed the question to them WHY does the USA stand idly by and let the destruction of a country continue in front of their eyes, I would love to hear their formal reply to the question /

FYI ... I see the latest official forex rate has now hit 80,000 to the US dollar

Peter

I am not sure that hunting in Zimbabwe somehow provides any significant moral or financial support to Mugabe. On the other hand, if expatriate hunters stop hunting there, the relative protection of the hunting areas will cease and it will be a poachers paradise. Saving Africa's wildlife and their biotopes should be a longer term goal of all hunters. Indeed, Mugabe will not live forever, let's hope the wildlife does.

Balla Balla normally I read your posts an find them well thought out, though your post above is just plain silly. Why is it most every country looks to the citizens of the USA to bail them out. Sure we have clout with military and money, sure we've bailed many out and will continue to do so. But we USA citizens also see our seniors working at fast food chains to purchase perscriptions,pay their own bills which include taxes so the money is there to bail some out. When we suffer a natural disaster such as hurricaneswe citizens fund the cleanup ourselves other than token monetary gifts from other countries such as Japan.

Say what ever you will but the beginning of the CURE for this problem is a bullet to the head of Mugabe.

Cunnigham I couldn't agree more but wonder when a South African will do it.

When the $ gets high enough someone will step up.

I doubt it more likely than not they'll mismange the $ an blame the USA for not taking care of the problem

Balla Balla,

I can say I got involved.

After my trip to Zim in 2003, I sent a letter to the US goverment in Washington DC and to SCI in Washington.

I explained that I had been to Zim in 99 before all this "Land invasion" begain, and then back in 01 - 02 - 03. Could not believe what Mugube had done. I sent photo's of the land and people in 99 then a bunch of photo's of the area and how it had been destroyed by the so called war vets, wrote on the backs of each photo explaining them.

Asked what could be done about this....

Not even a returned letter that they got it! After a month I called DC, US and SCI, no one had received any kind of letter like that! Imagine that!!

Countries (actually the people in them) change from the "inside". I mean to say that change of any kind in country is only effective and only works when the people of that country step up and say - enough is enough. I am an American and believe that the efforts of our country in Viet Nam, Nicaragua, Panama, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan are not and will not be as successful as we would like to think. Changes for freedom (note I did not say democracy) happen when the people of that country decide that they will do whatever is needed to be free.
The forced will of the US on these countries will only live on if the military holds control. A country can only be successful (meet the needs of the people) if the government is run by the people, not the military. A government must stay in power by rule of law, not rule of gun.

In Zim or RSA or wherever in Africa (Libya included), effective changes cannot happen from outside the country. Citizens of the US, UK and the EU can help by applying economic pressure, offering incentives to change - but direct conflict cannot solve the problem. The people have to do it.

Look at the Soviet Union, it imploded and changed when the people decided enough was enough. No war was needed. I think the people intuitively knew that another World War II where they lose 20,000,000 people was not a good option for change. They struggle with the concepts of self-government but are changing. China will eventually do the same thing.

RSA has changed when the world predicted civil war and white genocide. The leader, Mandela, led a relatively peaceful transition to an elected government. It remains to be seen if the reforms will hold or will RSA end up as Nigeria.

All of that said, Zim's people will have to decide for themselves what they want and who should lead them. The USA or anyone else cannot intervene successfully.

.

Ah Yes politics rears it's ugly head...and in an African hunting forum no less.
Truth be told 99.9 % of hunters don't give a rat's ass about the people or politics of any country other than theirs as long as it's safe to hunt there an game to be hunted once they get there.
If the citizens of Zim. wanted to put a hit on that mad man it could be done...but it's easier to ask for aid to do it and sit back rather than doing it yourself. What possible reason can anyone give for not having a Zimbabwe resident kill Mad Bob an his henchmen??? No guns..ah guns can be bought black market. No balls rings more the truth.
Some hunters will make every excuse in the book as to why they still go to Zim. to hunt, but one thing remains they are still going.

ALF,
You are correct. My post was my opinion on the best way for social change to occur. However, when you have outside influences (CIA in Nicaragua or Afganistan), you will have what is called the "Law of Unintended Consequences" - meaning that what you intended to be the the result does not always happen and that there will be a result you did not anticipate. An example is the importation of rabbits to Australia or mammals to New Zealand. The mammals in NZ ate the indigenous non-flying birds/eggs. Rabbits had no enemies and over-ran the country side. Horses imported to the US, the list goes on an on.

Same thing happens when a government is overthrown - the new guys set a new government up, the next generation kills off the 1st generation, then chaos occurs.

Change must come from within, not from the outside. The rule of law cannot be forced on a country by war - only by educated leaders and an enlightened/educated populace. For Zim and RSA - I do not know what the outcome can or will be. The wild cards are - AIDS depopulating the people ages 15 to 45, corruption, the next leader after Mugabe, education initiatives in RSA, white flight and capital flight from both countries to Mozambique or Namibia or out of Africa, what outside pressures will be brought into play.

The UN is ineffective and toothless (example Bosnia, Rwanda, N. Korea, Libya, Cuba, Iran). The US should not be the world's policeman because what works in the US may not work elsewhere. Democracy is not the "one size fits all" method of government. It works for an educated populace that can differentiate between what is good for the all is usually good for the individual and a populace that can "tax itself" to fund the government and lives by a rule of law.

The US can help by supplying educational resources and economic stimulus provided "conditions are met". These conditions and the aid should be a carrot and stick approach.

Anyway, this is easy for me to say as I have not lived through evictions or government upheavals or a war on our soil. Theory is nice, but many of you live in the middle of the mess.

I am no expert, just offer an opinion and observation.

CATS,
I am not sure about your hypothesis - to summarize your point - don't hunt Zim, withhold money from the industry to help topple the government. I assume this would apply to Europeans that hunt Zim as well. That is a form of economic sanction much like what the US has done to Cuba for the past 40 years. Castro is still in power and the people suffer. North Korea is under the same sanctions and they have decided to starve the people while building missles.

I do not know if your idea will work in Zim. If Mugabe is assasinated/murdered, will the replacement be better or worse? If the government is toppled by force or without the rule of law - what will replace it? Usually, something worse as the old leaders will all be shot and the ones that get away have looted the country (Nigeria, Uganda, Romania all come to mind). Or a police state comes to power and freedoms are limited (Argentina and the 40,000 missing people come to mind). Or the new group declares the old guys need to be killed along with the families (Cambodia and Pol Pot, China and Mao, Russia and Stalin, Iraq and Hussien all come to mind).

Close to home, the world saw what happened in New Orleans during a flood. The city was abandoned, looted, people killed, police abandoned their duties, government leaders did not serve the people. The bulk of the aid to the locals came via the churches and neighbors - not the government. In other words, the aid came from within. If they waited on the government (the outside) to help them, they will starve. The locals and people concerned came to help and get the place back on its feet. In summary, in the US we assumed the government would help - on the contrary - government usually can't help for many reasons. People, close the situation, involved in the situation, will help and do the re-building.

I shudder to think of what will happen in Iraq when the troops leave, if they ever leave. US troops are still in Germany and Korea many years after the wars there.

Expand the point to Zim. If the place comes undone, civil war breaks out, starvation, death whatever is everywhere - do you think that not hunting there will have any cause and affect? I do not think so. Do you think US or UN or UK troops can bring order and rule of law to that place? I doubt it. The best the US or whoever can do is to provide a carrot/stick approach to helping them. If they do not want what is offered, so be it.

And the correct answer is......? I have no real idea.

yes dogcat the people helped themselves in the USA after Katrinka we did not wait for Zim to offer to abet us in doing it either. Frankly I'm 1 of the 99.9% that really doesn't care what happens in South Africa as a whole if it depends on the USA coughing up the cash/manpower to see it done.
IMHO it is time for American to take care of Americans first. Like you said in your last post if the citizens of La. and Miss. would be depending on the US govt. soley to Get 'R Done it isn't going to happen anytime soon...why? 'cause we are off protecting Democracy thruout the world . I put my actions to work I've been to Mississippi once already to help out and going back in mid Febuary again. Both times on trips sponsored by the church I attend.....shall we keep a seat on the bus open for Balla Balla or Mad bob?

ihad an email from sara moore (jumbos wife) over the wekend, she says families in zim are having to band together to get enough to eat now. This may sound racist, but it is simple conjecture. What if uncle bob was a white man - he would have been crucified long ago. It just seems that when you look at black controlled governments they just don't seem to be able to govern themselves.

quote:

Balla Balla normally I read your posts an find them well thought out, though your post above is just plain silly.

WEll,

I guess seeing I am an old sun burnt worn out ex: Rhodesian and it is that time of the year ( the silly season ) maybe you will make an exception this time for me please

Anyhow to directly answer your poser.

The reason we (sometimes expect the USA) to help is becaause you guys have the biggest military fighting machine the world has ever known, you have the will to change regimes and have done so before, you have the money to do anything including put man on the moon, fund starwars, consider going to mars and whatever else we might care to dream up. You guys have an EMBASSY in Zimbabwe and know the real situation first hand.

In fact if you guys/ your government sorted it out now it would in fact COST you a lot less than (it is going to cost you taxpayers) in the future when the place grinds to a total halt and then you have to morally cough up much more to rebuild, as believe me as sure as day turns to night your government will help rebuild the economy eventually, so it makes moral and economic sense to do it now and not wait for a BIGGER BILL in the future.

As far as your pensioners working in fast food outlets to pay the bills, is that not an internal management crises that needs to be addressed by the people in power instead of spending billions on the UN and other inept burecratic funding operations worldwide!

Peter

Peter:Yes being forced to work so as to purchase life sustaining medications is an internal problem. One we tax payers are told the US Gov't cannot afford to take on. I realize I'm living in what many non Americans think of as the land of milk and honey, a land where medications are to be had at all.
Those same people are forced to work to pay Federal Taxes or be removed from their homes. An issue not many non Americans are aware of but true.
What galls us is our powers to be expect us to continue doing such while they keep up spend such large amounts abroad.
The UN is corrupt an about as worthless as tits on a boar hog. Sanctions are meaningless. If the USA was smart they'd give the UN the boot an force them to another country...it is a $ pit for Americans.

CATS,
I agree, the UN needs to be booted and re-done, if at all. The original purpose was solid but flawed in all praciticality. One of the reasons we stay in it, is to avoid isolationism and to at least have a say in the process. It is hard to change a process like the UN from the outside, just like a country, it is better to change from within.

Butchloc - are there any governments run by native black Africans that truly works? Ghana or the new Uganda. I do not know for sure.

Balla Balla - I have read many of your posts over the past year and you are very intelligent and a "straight up guy". I do not know your frame of reference, so please read my words with that in mind.

I do not know about pensioners working at fast food places. I have seen some but do not know the circumstances. In general, it is not the job of the government/taxpayers to pay people to be retired. If you can work, you should work. It is only in this last 75 years that the various governments around the world "pay" old people not to work (retire). Prior to socialism and about 1910, retirement was for people that saved and earned what they had, not waiting around for a handout. Our Social Security system is a house of cards and will fail at some point.

On the issue of this costing the US a lot of money to rebuild Zim- I doubt it happens. There is no serious economic interest of the US in Zim. No oil, no uranium, no gold. I believe the US is involved in the Middle East solely for oil and an attempt to keep energy moving to the west. Why else would the US be there? The US had no interest there until after World War II and oil being found in Saudi Arabia by Aramco (1947). If it were not for oil, why would the US go to Kuwait or Iraq or care if Iran has nuclear weapons? The ties to Israel are largely due to three things - ideology (Americans have a common link to Israelis in religion and government), economic (there is a large Jewish population in the US that firmly supports Israel), political (similar governments and an interest in peace in the area to minizie disruption to energy supplies and to existance).

If I use the logic that the US should intervene, what about Nigeria, Ethiopia, Sudan, Chad, Yemen and Somalia? Each of those countries have corrupt governments or non-functioning governments. Why not send in the military to set up a government, fight the "bad guys", put the old leaders on trial, then hold elections for the "new guys"? Sound familiar? Will it work? Time will tell....

The US did not intervene in Rwanda, was reluctant to go into the old Yugoslavia, avoided Cambodia and is ignoring the mess in Venezuela (to some degree). I think you are saying that the US should bring force to bear on Zim for "moral" reasons? What moral reasons? Throwing money at the problem only makes it worse (the US welfare system and the Canadian and UK health care systems are good examples of good ideas gone bad). The only true long term solution to the mess in any country is to solve the issue yourselves. You tend to care more about something when you do it yourself.

I am still not sure what I know and don't know about all of this....

Alot of this centers around what an individual goverment feels is a "cause" for them. So far the EU, US, Brits and others have, for whatever reason, decided that Zim is a loser for them in a political sense.The US has had a long, bad run of decisions like this(anyone remember Mogadishu(sp?)). As stated above, the UN will do nothing. And Peter is right- when it is "tragic" enough the above mentioned countries will pile on and throw a ton of dollars at a problem that could have been corrected much earlier.

Cats, your stupidity is showing. When has the federal government ever taxed a persons home. That tax is levied by local governments. Why should the government provide cradle to the grave support for any one in a country that people have the opportunity to do what they want with the necessary commitment. Oh yea the USA is the land of milk and honey even with the leftists trying their best to redistribute the wealth. I thought even the worst off in the USA had it better than most of the rest of the world and this was driven home when I visited Zim last Sept. Enough!

good point my error it is not Feds whom tax realestate but as you stated local govt. It is the Feds whom tax thru IRS my income after I retired (on my own investments)then penalized me for making too much over my limit to collect Social Security to which I contributed all my working life.
My point to realestate tax still remains...don't pay it get booted via Sherrif's sale.
I am fortunate to travel well thruout the world an indeed we are privledged as Americans.
BTW my "stupidity" has enabled me to retire, live well,travel and hunt at the ripe old age of 48 when I called it quits. I work now as a hobby. Which goes to prove that in the land of milk and honey one needs not to be able to spell nor type well or even use good grammar to make $$...hell I'm living proofg of that an laugh at all the working stiffs everyday that are 20 yrs older than me...ain't America GRAND . Cats

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
IMHO if an American spends one single $ in that country you are helping to support this type of action.
Sadly some Americans will turn their eyes away from this shit an continue to hunt there...guess that speaks volumes about the type of human one needs to be to continue hunting there.

What an incredibly inane statement obviously made by someone who doesn't understand what is happening in that country. Do you think the money that is spent there all goes into Mugabe's pockets...what about these people who benefit tremendously from either European or American hunters? The safari infrastructure, the people of Zimbabwe and the fate of game animals in Zimbabwe depend on us. By letting that collapse, what have we accomplished? Do you think the white farmers in danger of being evicted and their black neighbors want us to turn our backs on them to get at Evil Bob?


Stupid statements condemning other hunters on these forums has become the rule rather than the exception! I will hunt wherever I godamn well please and not turn my back on my friends in Zim because I don't agree with the politics of their country!



If you want to take some supposed moral high ground on this issue be my guest, but don't pretend to tell me why I hunt in a country or what kind of person I am, sir, you do not know me! Your simple answer to a very complex issue portrays your knowledge on the subject. I find you an arrogant prick who has never posted a single picture of your supposed African experiences!



These good people benefited from me being there. They have my support and my friendship and I will not turn away from them or somehow second guess why I hunted in Zim like others on this post have. A man has to have convictions and stand by them. Especially when others disagree with them! IMHO of course.

well like you said everyone has their own convictions if you sleep well with yours so be it. I slept very well lastnight myself!
And if your idea of a successfull hunters stems around hero pictures so be that too. do I posses pictures of my game animals you bet I do...do I post them on the internet to apease pricks like you...you can bet I don't...like I said everyone has their own convictions (welcome to mine)

If only the "evil ones" in Zim weren't black becuase if the US got involved, especially on it's own, the good folks like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be on all the media outlets 24-hours a day, 7-days a week and would absolutely tear our country apart with their brand of racism.

We can make all the fun of France we want but when their government decides to do something they do it .... as the folks at Greenpeace discovered. They don't always decide to do what others may like but, God bless them, they seem to act in their own self-interest without regard to opinion around the world.