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I slept well last night too. Speaking of heros...what do you call all your chest thumping about how successful you are in your posts above? Braggadocio is braggadocio, my friend. Kinda hypocritical, huh? So prove you are more than an "armchair expert" and post pix of you in Africa without the dead animals in them. And none of those Wally Taber pix off some website you've claimed in the past... On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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Unfortunatley many in the world view americans as arrogant pricks and therefore the term "Ugly American". This is the result of a minority of jerks. While there are many of us who treat people with respect as we travel the world, there are those that could'nt care less about others or the countrys and cultures they experience. Some people have helped Katrina victims because it was the "in" thing to do. Some have flocked to the area in order to take advantage of the situation. Some have helped because they truely care about fellow human beings. You can read a persons posts and tell what type of person they are and in to what category they fall. You help and care about people in need whether they are black, white, latin, muslim, Jewish, catholic, protestant, yankees, rednecks, ... We as americans are not responsbile for the rest of the world. However we orignate from countries all around the world and most of our ancestors came here for a better life, or to escape persecution elsewhere. It is ingrained in our heritage and our culture to reach out. | |||
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my idea of helping out the good people of Zim is to force them up on their own two feet to first help themselves. Ask yourself how Evil Bob remains in office...because unlike French or Americans the residents of Zim are unwilling to fight back in force. We Americans as a tiny nation fought the English. | |||
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So now the suggestion is that we go into Zimbabwe and help overthrow Mugabe. Not real clear on my African history, but it seems that the European nations took over most of Africa without very large forces around the turn of the last century. Every war since, including the Rhodesian conflict, communist countries helped the rebels. Tanzania and some other countries may be exceptions. In all outside help was provided to make a regime change. Some African cultures are warlike, however many are peaceful. Outside of the military there very few guns. The people of Zimbabwe have chosen not to have an armed revolt. They know they will wind up in unmarked graves in the bush. When Hitler, Mugabe has studied and uses some of his tactics, controlled parts of Europe it took some time before other countries stepped in and helped. The occupied peoples did what they could, but the odds against them were great. | |||
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 That makes no sense. By the way, "WE AMERICANS" would have lost that one with out the massive help of the French. The money that is pouring into Zim today is coming from China. Which no one here has mentioned. Also, this "land reform" is facing many African nations down the road. It is a story we will see played out many times in the near future. Should the USA get involved? Yes, but as part of a UN action. Having said all the above, I think it is great to see this type of discussion occurring here. Hunting is about more than simply going somewhere to harvest game. It is also about learning, making friends and at times getting involved with people and issues we would never have known otherwise. | |||
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I stand by what I stated earlier not 1/10th of the people hunting Africa give a good damm about anything other than the hunting. I'll also restate, I as an American am getting tired of watching our working poor pay taxes to see them spent abroad. Read that as you may, call me an ugly American. At least I have the balls to state how I feel. I've watched my parents home be flooded 3 times while they lived. Fed. Flood Insurance is more worthless than the UN. Not one cent came from anyone but family members to help them out...all the while the Feds found tax $ to send troops off to aide other countries. I see children living in the Appilachan mts in the souther USA in shacks, no shoes,etc. but some of the pompous asses here claim we should send money to bail out people in SA.....go ahead wave your banner for their cause, but don't expect everyone to fund it for you. | |||
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Seeing we are drifting more and more into Politics, and of cource Politics is life, so we cant and must not ignore Politics and sweep it under the carpet as if effects you and I every day of our lives // There are many good and valid opinins expressed so far, therefore it might be in order to reflect and summarise the facts as I see it having actually lived there for over twenty of my informative years, I still have relatives within the place so my perspective comes purely from an experience knowledge base, I dont have any axe to grind. For the brief and simplistic history lesson to understand the present day situation a little better. Before the COLONIALS mainly British arrived Rhodesia was essentially the Matebele and Mashona tribes fighting one another over the decades and with the Matebele the more war like people ( Lobengula Shaka Zulu etc etc ) Well low and behold, when Cecil Rhodes arrived late 1800 with his Pioneers he had some ding dong battles with the local Matebele & other tribe and stole or (fought for and won over) a lot of the land JUST as MOST other so called (invaders or exploreres did) in America Canada NZ Australia to name just a few, so that is what peoples did centuries ago when they explored the world and invaded and took land by force stealth and EVEN some barganing, it is NOTHING NEW REALLY. The Britich Portuguese Spanish Germans all did it and NOW the world is reaping the fruits of those explorations with many of the modern liberal world ( mainly whites ) wanting to now appease for so called past injustices or wars or whatever term or label we want to place upon it. Back to Zim's, Well in the fifties the WINDS of CHANGE swept Africa and various countries from Ghana throught to present day South Africa all gained independence from their (so called colonial opressors) and in Rhodesia the move to independance was delayed by a protacted bush war conflict between the then Rhodesian government forces of Ian Smith and some of the locals (backed militarily and logistically) by the Russians and Chinese. The so called FREE WORLD & UN were really pissed off with us ( whites ) in Rhodesia living a life of priveledge and they in their WISDOM through the UN and other bodies placed universal sanctions upon Rhodesia and eventually economically brought us to our knees and we captulated when Ian Smith with one hand tied behind his back was foreced to sign the Lancaster house agreement with the British and the Mugabe Nkoma people. That essentially handed the country over to the black majority whom formed a government of so called national unity in 1980 and the place slowly and surely went progressivly downhill and it is now (worse than a basket case) with no end in sight untill some other country has the guts and will to step in and relieve Mugabe from power and work to transforming Zims into a better place for all its peoples, black & white. Although we (mostly agree) that change must come from within for long term stability, it is not an easy task when the ruling party has all the guns and the others whom are starving and oppressed dont have anything to effect change and are at the mercy of the regime. Only the blind cannot see what is required in Zimbabwe to make change, and those whom say sit back and let change come only from within are (living in a dream world) I believe ... Sometimes in this world those with the power and means availble need to use those powers wisely and alleviate the suffering. For god sake guys, how many other instances have we witnessed where essentially the so called (civilised western world) has sat on its hands for fear of upsetting (someone or some liberal grouping) and watched as people were systematically deprived of haman dignity and killed in vast numbers all for the sake of allowing the opressive regime leaders to remain in power. Do we not learn from the history of Idi Amin in Uganda the Rwanda debacle Darfur and the list goes on and on, are we still stuck in the old syle let it unfold and sit back and wait and wait while peple suffer and die, or do we use pre-emptive tactics ... I personally am for the pre-emtive approach Cheers, Peter Peter | |||
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Peter well written and although I do not wish to see the USA as a western power step in at this time. I do see your point as well as respect your views. Truth be told the USA is stretched thin at this time. Possibly the Canadians whom have not backed the USA or the Russians and French whom also joined with them to refuse support in our war on terror are more able at this point to lend a hand to SA. | |||
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Peter, I appreciate your perspective on this as you are "on the ground" and understand it better than I do. Let me offer another perspective - I have two sons, ages 18 and 17. They have several good friends, a couple of which are headed to the US military academies (West Point for the Army and Anapolis for the Navy). I have known these boys for many years. I know their families as well. The question I have to ask myself is - would I want my son to go to a country such as Zimbabwe, fight in a war, get killed or wounded to help change out the government? For me, the criteria for whether or not I would support a military actions is - is my country at risk, is my family at risk, is there a larger "moral" purpose for the war/military action, is there a "great wrong or crime" that must be corrected (crimes against humanity that the world has issued an outcry against)? If I answer those questions "yes" - then I would go myself or feel fine with my sons going and possibly dying for the cause. If the answer is "no" - then I will not support it and will do all in my power to prevent my sons from going. I fully understood the issues in World War II. I would have gone to war. I did not understand the issues in Korea (stop the advance of communism), Vietnam (stop the advance of communism), Afganistan(topple a government that supports terrorists) , Iraq (topple a government that support terrorists, controls vast oil reserves, has a big army and attacks neighbors) , Kuwait( could not defend itself and had large oil reserves, sits next to Saudi Arabia). For these, I would not have gone to war. Wars we did not fight - China(pushed Chaing Ky Shek to Formosa), Cuba (Kennedy's pulled a reverse), Russia (at the end of WWII to stop communism), Sudan (no interest, no oil), Somolia (got our nose bloodied but no interest), Mozambique (no interest, no oil) , Bosnia/Yugoslavia (let the UN do it, no oil, no interest), Hungary 1956 (no heart for the fight, no army in Europe), Falkland Islands (not our problem), Cambodia (lost in Viet Nam, why lose again). I am sure there are others. All of this to say - I have a hard time understanding, on a personal level, why I should consider the moral dilema of sending my sons to die/get wounded to change a goverment in Zimbabwe (or Iraq for that matter). I cannot see it. Further, I would ask - why have the British or other European countries with deeper roots in Africa not stepped forward as you suggest? If I understand correctly, the bulk of the whites in Zim are of British decent with German and Dutch mixed in. THe US never colonized Africa, Middle East or Far East (except Japan after WWII and Korea for a short time). The steps usually taken prior to a war are economic sanctions. If that occurs, doesn't that hurt the locals badly with little affect on the leaders? Cuba, Iraq, China (long ago), Sudan are examples. Again, I do not know the answer to the problem. I just believe that if war is the answer, I do not want part of it. My opinion.... | |||
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dogcat In an ideal world we would have no wars, I hate war myself and lost a number of my buddies in the Zimbabwe conflict, which ultimaely in theory we lost whereas in practice we won but politically we were SHAFTED BIG TIME We are living in a dream world if we think we can prevent or stop war, it has been going on since day dot and there is no end in sight in fact the worlwide situation IMHO is deteriating / Of cource when you me or anyone personalises the conflict and it involves our family and friends the decision time gets very very tough and I respect every one whom wants to avoid war, so do I but there comes a time in a nations destiny when they must take a path to freedom I dont have the answers I only have opinions Peter | |||
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I love Zim and have had nothing but great experiences there.I have warm feelings about the people that I have met there , both the blacks and the whites.That said , I would not support any type of US effort to liberate the white minority or dethrone Mugabe.Why? World opinion has changed in the last 40 years in regards to who should have the run of Africa.It is the black Africans! Who is to say that if the US spent billions of $ and gave up several thousand lives we would not have the same situation repeat itself as we have now in Iraq only this time with the majority of the world in opposition.It is not worth the price it would cost. As long as the rest of the world wants to see black Africans in charge of their own destiny then I think it is useless to expend lives and dollars fighting a non-winable war. We seldom get to choose But I've seen them go both ways And I would rather go out in a blaze of glory Than to slowly rot away! | |||
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In re-reading my above post I am not sure that I have accutrately stated my case. What I mean to say is that the world will not tolerate white rule in predominately black Africa.As long as blacks rule,my fear is that the cluster-f**K that is now the reality of Zimabwe is destined to repeat itself over and over. Remove Mugabe and replace him with another tribal thug and the process will hardly be interupted. Money will have been spent and lives will have been lost but the underlying problem will not have been addressed. We seldom get to choose But I've seen them go both ways And I would rather go out in a blaze of glory Than to slowly rot away! | |||
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And thtis is why Africa is in the shape its in. Global Sportsmen Outfitters, LLC Bob Cunningham 404-802-2500  | |||
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May be off point BUT I read this forum religiously because of the interesting people involved and their willingness to share perspectives and experiences that I am unfamilier with. Too bad cyber-technology cannot transport us to a local pub for these chats, where balanced and provocative dicussions would eventually devolve into friendship, back slapping and fighting over who pays the bar bill....... ______________________________ "Are you gonna pull them pistols,...or whistle Dixie??" Josie Wales 1866 | |||
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Live4thestalk, I agree. I have very few friends locally that have the same breadth of life experience I read on this board. I would be glad to buy the first round, eventhough I am an Okie. | |||
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live4thestalk & dogcat // Now you are making good sense, at least to me you are ... just as long as we can find a BAR in Africa that takes NZ dollars I will glady (shout) the first round, after that the SOB Mugabe pays for the rest of the night. In fact he is welcome to join us for a drink or two or three and maybe we can put a flea in his ear Peter   | |||
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Yeah, right. Last time you posted a trophy pic it was one you stole out of an old archery hunting book. | |||
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New Year same ole Dan....try the decafe buddy an make a resolution to not spend next NYR'S Eve alone with your laptop. TLM/Cats | |||
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Same old Big Pothead. Still Lying about your life eh? Got the day off from sweeping the corridors of the High School? | |||
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glad to be able to say I'm retired...how about you? You going to be retired before 50  BTW How desperate are the 2 of you to find people to bash now that Ray,Judge,Allen an others have flown the coop? Odd how 500 grs and Mickey1 usually show up on the same threads to support eachother...kinda like that Henry McCain guy huh 500???? Hey man new year so peace to you. Much snow out there in Utah yet? | |||
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 Retired or just unemployable? You make up more stories than a Kindergardner. | |||
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Odd isn't it how you revert back to bashing to keep the attention away from you? You're pretty much a none issue on AR at least to the posters whom PM me about you, so I won't bother to reply to your antics regardless of how you try to bait. Have a nice year ...an Oh yes tell your alter ego that for me too. | |||
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Every gun board I visit that exhibits contention amongst the members always seems to mention these same two? Odd? What is it about this 500 grs or the other chap that seems to cause tempers too fly? | |||
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MA what I wonder is what comments such as those posted by the 2 of them on this thread have to do with hunting in Africa. I will however give 500 grs some credit he has shown that he does posses some knowledge about big bores. The other wannabe hasn't shown us much other than his skill at being a troll though. | |||
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Hey Mitch  , or should I say Carmello, Since I don't post on Wanker World how do you know what I say? Cats If I send you a copy of this picture of you and your Lion that you posted will you autograph it and send it back? I'll include a stamp.  Oh that's right. You stole this picture off the Internet and only claimed it was you. | |||
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