Mike, I think that's especially true on the wood stocked custom guns. The $4600 one is a thing of beauty, its just not for me. I want a 375 I can use the world over. In wet climates that means no wood. The SS Synthetic Custom shop gun from Winchester is over $1500 more than the sstandard SS synthetic. There's very little room for appearance improvement at least IMO on a SS synthetic gun unless it has some armor finish or paint which the Winchester Custom gun does not. I'm sure they square the face of the action and bed the stock but other than that there still looks to be a several hundred dollar excess charge on the custom gun. IMHO Winchester needs to get real in the lightweight category and on price to compete with their custom guns. I agree on Weatherby and I can say I love mine as they have never let me down.

Chuckwagon,

If some of the Model 70s stainless we see in Australia are a guide then I think the Winchester Custom shop would have ample opportunities for some work , shit the stuff is rough.

As to smoothness it will be easier for Remington because they do not have the long extractor dragging in the raceway and they have a chrome moly bolt head and hence locking lugs where as Winchester is stuck with stainless on stainless for the lugs.

Mike

Just had a look at the rifle.

They add a McMillan stock, so I guess that would add some dollars.

But it sure does not look like a $2600US gun.. Their Ultimate Classic in wood is only $3000US.

Mike

CW: no argument from me that the Winchester custom shop is AFU and I definetly would not buy one from them. But then again, I wouldn't buy a Remington from anybody, especially as a serious hunting rifle. As far as the military using 700 actions, the lowest bidder won after the Winchester contract ran out and they switched to the post-64 garbage rifles.

As far as Weatherbys not being used in that venue, the answer has nothing to do with quality or accuracy, but rather one of cost. There is no way a relatively small manufacturer like Weatherby could compete with Remington. The Weatherby action cost more to make even if you take into account economies of scale. I'm just being up front, based on *my* experience, Remingtons are a substandard product for my taste and their custom shop leaves a lot to be desired. You asked for an opinion on the KS and based on what I've seen, my recommendation is a definite no. jorge

Jorge,

This concerns a mate of mine.

Would you rather a Dakota or the Winchester Custom at $4800. At the moment the plus for the Dakota is you can send your own blank to them which I don't imagine could be done with Winchester. Calibre would be 375.

Winchester use to offer all sorts of things but their website does not indicate that is still done.

Mike

Mike: At first impression, I would have to say the Dakota. But thruthfully, I don't feel that qualified to make the recommendation. I know you are limited "down under" as to choices, but my choice would be to have one built by Echols, Biesen, Penrod or ant of the other prime smiths. The Dakota sure does look enticing for the price though...jorge

Jorge,

No, this bloke wants to do the factory style custom rifle and Wbys are too "loud" for him if you know what I mean.

One of the troubles he has is that there is no agent for Dakota out here and Winchester Australia is hopeless. We are lucky with Wby as the import agent is the biggest importer of guns and ammo and gun related gear in Australia and they would be one of Wbys biggest single buyers in the world. The Wby Vanguard is now the biggest selling rifle in Australia.

Mike

Mike: If you do a search here for Winchester Custom shop, you will also find some good reports as well. It's still a bit of a gamble. When i was at SCI last year, I did see some very fine work from the winchester Custom shop. So maybe it's a function of personal involvement with the builder, albeit phone calls can get expensive! Let us know what the outcome is. jorge

I certainly wouldn't waste any time on comparrisons to the factory guns that go to the shows. Those guns get a lot of time spent on them that any of the run of the mill custom shop guns will ever see. You can slice it, dice it and put it back anyway you want but the fact is that Winchester is suffering terribly from piss poor quality control.

In Australia you don't see nearly the degree of Model 70 and Rem 700 groups as you do on the forums. Possibly because you are Americans and we are Australians just buying American guns.

For 99.9% of shooters here CRF means nothing except inconvenience in single loading which often happens because you are just driving around or on the other hand you might let the magazine go and then load single when the magazine runs out. Keep in mind we might be shooting at several animals at once.

Wby Vanguard is currently the biggest selling rifle in Australia. Ruger is also big because it is quite a bit cheaper than Rem 700 or Model 70. Rem 700 is probably more highly regarded by more people than the Model 70. Sako is not seen as being as far up the ladder as what appears on these forums and I suspect because we are paying import duties and taxes on all rilfes the Sako is not much dearer than Rem 700 or Model 70.

I think where Australia is probably different is because of the very high volume of shooting the law of averages simply means all rifles will have problems at times.

Oner thing where Rem 700 is bettter is having the full length magazine instead of being blocked off, whicu you must have if CRF is to be fully protected against short stroking. For me a Rem 700 is esier to load the magazine and especially in a moving vehichle.

But if both Rem 700 and M70 are working OK I prefer the M70 because of the integral recoil lug and I hate the look of the rivoted in Rem extractor even though it works.

What I can tell you is that if you do a lot of spotlight shooting for a week and there are heaps of roos about it won't matter what rifle brand, somoeone will be cursing their rifle at some points during the week

Mike

Actually, I was talking about Custom Shop guns. Having said that, I vist my friend's gunshop here in town regularly to look at "what's in." that I might just have to buy. Just on appearance, the Winnies are looking mighty fine,but just like the "piss poor' observation, it's purely anectdotal. Be that as it may, I'd take a Winchester on a bad day (custom shop or stock rifles)than a remington on it's best day-ever. jorge

I really think it is unfair to say that because the US military uses it that makes it good. That is often 100% wrong. The US military uses some things that are poor choices, very poor.

not to mention the version they use is highly modified.

just thought I would point that out. Talk to some VietNam vets that had the first versions of the M-16 over there. I have a friend that was long range patrol and hated having to strip his in the field and clean it often enough to keep it from jamming on him. Then look into the history of that rifle and how it was foisted on the soldiers by the politicos.

I do not own a 700, have never had one. But not just because I prefer CRF to pushfeed, more because I like military rifles like the enfield, mauser and springfield. I do own a 2001 (I think) M70 Safari Express in 375, I got it for 650 unfired so had to do it, you understand.

I would be very interested in hearing why gunsmiths like Echols and Fisher et al. of the big boys don't use the 700's for their top projects. I know that my stepfather's brother popped the handle off a 700 once, but he was all jacked up and cycling the action like a crazo.

Red

Hello,
Damn, Chuckwagon, you asked a very straight forward basic question and look what has happened!! A full blown explosion of the pros and cons of the age old argument about Remmeys and Winnies. Aint life grand!! We all have our points, some have them on top of their heads, but that's life in the fast lane, huh!

In summary for my part, it would appear that it is about equal on opinions for the two contestants but if you should have any additional "non controversal..." topics, please post them straight away and let the games begin, again.

Favor Center!!
dsiteman

Red

The current M70 has the two piece bolt. According to the Canadian gunsmith Bill Leeper who posts on AR and who seems to be a very reliable and accurate reporter he has seen a couple move around the bolt handle because they are no long splined and brazed but knurled and pressed on.

So if you want a one piece bolt you will have to head down to the shop and buy yourself a Howa

Mike

A ho Who ??? No Jap guns ! lol, well that wont work because I've always been a winnie fan. In fact If I was going to shoot roos I'd have to break out the 1923 special order model 1892 44-40 that I importded from AU before the politicians totaly screwed the pooch over there. What I was saying about custom guns that hit the shows, no matter which brand, is that they typically have no reflection at all on the regular catalog custom guns. Most are hand selected and get a lot of special attention before going to the shows. Heck the same is true of the Winchester catalog. Look at that $4600 African rifle in the '05 catalog. I'll bet ya a dozen jelly donughts you won't see to many with wood like that for $4600.

quote:

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Originally posted by dsiteman:
Hello,
Damn, Chuckwagon, you asked a very straight forward basic question and look what has happened!! A full blown explosion of the pros and cons of the age old argument about Remmeys and Winnies. Aint life grand!! We all have our points, some have them on top of their heads, but that's life in the fast lane, huh!

In summary for my part, it would appear that it is about equal on opinions for the two contestants but if you should have any additional "non controversal..." topics, please post them straight away and let the games begin, again.

Favor Center!!
dsiteman

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