Now had he used a proper bullet, like a Woodley, for example.......

It is not only soilids that5 can change directions after hitting an animal.

In all my examples, it was a Barnes X bullet.

I have never been to Africa ....

BUT ... would you not have discussed this scenario with the client at the beginning and included it in the contract?

Did Karl know of the cow in the background or was this animal hidden? Were there any other animals around?

Clients Responsibility. End of story.

He can choose not to take the shot if he can't make the one offered.

A shoot through on elephant is always a possibility and the bullet seldom goes straight. In my experience the bullets usually turn up to 45º as they exit the skull- on the elephant culls probably 50% of the bullets exited the heads of females and sub adults and you would often see the bullet striking the ground on the other side of the elephant. A couple of the more experienced culling officers maintained that the bullet would usually hit the ground the same distance on the other side of the elphant as you fired from. I couldn't swear to this, but seen the dust kick up often enough as the bullet hits the ground on the far side.

Who's fault? well, it is one of the inherant possibilities of elephant hunting and if the client wants to hunt Ele then that is one of the risks (like catching malaria) and it is to his account for the actual elephant trophy fee and the operator takes the hit on one animal off quota (so he looses the income from the daily rate on the now canceled second elephant hunt)

In my industry something similar to this would be considered an "unforeseen circumstance" and with the client paying for the experience its hard to expect the provider should pay for this.

For Tony and others that are interested in the bullet performance, I did not recover the "offending" bullet, but both the entrance and exit on the primary bullet looked like a normal round hole. The bullet hole in the 2nd animal appears to be slightly elongated. I do think that any bullet leaving a solid meduim going back into an air medium (like exiting) will destabilise, but did not expect that wild deviation.

The bullet clipped the "fins" on top of the spine in the neck area on the first elephant, before exiting.

Have a look at the photo, the hunters position is marked as a red dot, the 1st elephant went straight down, the 2nd one was spined and also went down, but tried to get up very soon after that. the 1st one was also still alive and needed finishing off.

I would be pissed beyond, I don't know what. But I would pay, I pulled the trigger, its my fault.

So after 139 people have voted 55 people think you should pay or share the trophy fee with client and 84 thinks the client should pay all.

The client took the shoot and should pay period but if you got any tip or maybe willing to chip in it would be a nice gesture.

What was the fee ?

Very interesting discussion of a topic one doesn't see much written about. We've most of us found ourselves in related circumstances, so I like to see the input of both the hunters and the PH's.

I think Karl's statement that the client "pulled the shot" has inserted confusion into a fairly straightforward discussion: as if it is the poor marksmanship of the client that causes him to be responsible. However, even if the shot had been a perfect earhole shot, it still could have deflected and killed or wounded the second ele, and we still would have had the issue of where the economic risk should lie.

I've always understood that it's the PH's job to bring one in proximity to the game, and the client's job to "own the shot." Karl tracked and located a legally shootable elephant, and the client determined to take the shot. So in general, I'm in agreement that the client is in the wrong for refusing to pay.

Now, let me throw a different scenario out there: Several hunts back, I had a PH "call the shot" on an animal that legally was unshootable. (I'm leaving out details as to place, PH and animal for somewhat obvious reasons). In this instance, there was no deflection, no missed shot, just the PH saying "that's your animal, take the shot..." and me dropping it in its tracks. We came to a reasonable resolution (that was not unrelated to Karl's proposed resolution here, but also involved additional payments), but I did feel that since I was not the expert on the regional game laws as to what could be shot or not, I kind of got the short end of this deal.

[QUOTE]

I think Karl's statement that the client "pulled the shot" has inserted confusion into a fairly straightforward discussion: as if it is the poor marksmanship of the client that causes him to be responsible. However, even if the shot had been a perfect earhole shot, it still could have deflected and killed or wounded the second ele, and we still would have had the issue of where the economic risk should lie.

QUOTE]

Leon, no I do not think it is only his poor marksmanship that gives him most (if not all) of the blame. But that it contributed is a definate. The neck offers much less resistance, around maybe 20-24 inches of mostly muscle and sinew and a bit of bone (where this particular shot landed.) The head would have offered at least double that, and mostly bone (although spongy and honeycombed, it does act as a much more effective bullet stop).

This also begs the question, how many elephants are running around with other bullets than AK 47's in them? Funny enough, just after this incedent, I found a inverted .375 (looks like it, as it was green from corrosion) in the tusk socket of another bull we shot earlier.

Anton, the fee was US$ 5 000.

And forgive me if I sound like a whiner, but I have posted this mostly for eductaion purposes and to test my own ideas and opinions on this. (thats why I blocked the faces of all the hunters/ observers in my photo and will not give names or blame someone.)

Karl, first Larry's contested "Fall Down" Elephant, now this. If you didn't have bad luck, I guess you'd have no luck at all!!! :-)

The client shot and killed the elephant.At $5000 he is getting a bargain on the second one.If you have any more $5000 elephants , please let me know.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
The client shot and killed the elephant.At $5000 he is getting a bargain on the second one.If you have any more $5000 elephants , please let me know.

eyedoc, I wish I had a 100 of those! But if I do get some, you are already on my mailing list, AND I have your phone number!

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
The client shot and killed the elephant.At $5000 he is getting a bargain on the second one.If you have any more $5000 elephants , please let me know.

Isn't that the truth!

Brett

Remind me never to hide behind an elephant thinking I am safe from one of Karls hi performance cartridges. Remind me to never piss off Karl.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
It's why you need to always use softs and never shoot into a herd.

The PH should pay up for letting the client shoot into a herd.

Are you advocating using a soft on ele?

quote:

The PH should pay up for letting the client shoot into a herd.

According to what was described the bull was 30 yards away (and in front) of the nearest other member of the herd, a distance which can be considered as being clear of the herd.

To slot a shot into the ear-hole also implies the quarry was at 90 degrees or a few degrees short or beyond, putting the other elephant well out of harm's way.
Shit happened but not because of the PH's decision but more likely as a result of a botched shot (no fault of the PH either).

To miss the targeted area at 20 ft by a whole 2 ft is BS shooting - period.

Any suggestion at shooting an elephant with a soft regardless of caliber is inconceivable as the solid was primarily designed for specifically for elephant and for those who so desire, buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
It's why you need to always use softs and never shoot into a herd.

The PH should pay up for letting the client shoot into a herd.

Are you advocating using a soft on ele?

This whine fest started out without any mention of what animal was shot and/or wounded.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
would you not have discussed this scenario with the client at the beginning and included it in the contract?

I've hunted with Karl.
It is in the contract as Karl stated above. I have a copy in front of me as I type and it is quite clear on page 2, Item 3a.

I've hunted with Karl and plan to do so again. I look at this in the same manner as wounding and losing an animal that I had shot or missing the animal I was shooting at but hitting another.

I'd expect that I would have to pay.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
It's why you need to always use softs and never shoot into a herd.

The PH should pay up for letting the client shoot into a herd.

Are you advocating using a soft on ele?

This whine fest started out without any mention of what animal was shot and/or wounded.

True, but based on this quote from the original post I think most people were able to read between the lines.

"I instructed the client to take the shot to the earhole."

Maybe it is time to add a little reality to this discussion. Everyone seems to be trying to find someone to blame for a second elephant being shot. Folks, no one is to blame based on what Karl has told us. If you want to blame someone, blame Murphy, God, the devil or the local witch doctor. Neither the client or Karl were to "Blame". It was an act of nature. The client missed his mark or shot at the neck on purpose but that didn't cause the bullet to deflect and hit the other one. Blame North Fork bullets? Hardly, as I said earlier all bullets can and sometimes will deflect. Saying that, I was told as a child learning to hunt and shoot that I was responsible for any bullet that I shot until it stopped at rest. The same with any hunter safety course that I taught. There is a big difference between blame and responsibility.

465H&H

This thread has been very educational to me.
Lesson:

Limit elephant trophy hunting to a herd numbering less than two elephants. Own the shot.

The ph can't see your sight picture so it is up to the hunter to make the final decision to fire. I teach my students that they are responsible for every round they fire. The hunter pays and gets to tell the story of how he got two elephants with one shot.

I think the lesson to be learned is it is the hunters responsibility to make the final descision on the shot DON'T pay any attention to the PH when says " shoot, shoot, shoot" or" You must shoot now." If the animial buggers off OK you start again, don't most people here say it is the "hunt" not the kill that matters. You did the hunt sucessfully as you were in postion to make a shot, the hunt was over now it is killing time. JMO

If I signed the contract and I pulled the trigger, then I am responsible.

Karl, would the ramifications have been the same if the second ele had been a trophy class bull?

Something to think and talk to your PH about. I try to be aware of everything that is going on around me, where the various members of the party are, where the elephant herd is and in what direction they are moving, identify any obstructions that are in my path, confirm the angle is good for me based on where I am standing, try to locate the brain/target, judge how much time I have based on the elephants behavior, etc etc...but it is a lot to take in especially if receiving “gentle nudging” from your PH. Adrenalin pumps and by nature’s design we get a degree of tunnel vision. The perfect shot opportunity that the PH sees may not be the same thing that the hunter sees. A great shooter who fired his double/bolt hundreds of times at the range in preparation can muff one, and a cool-headed PH can blow a call or have his hair catch fire. Sometimes despite everybody doing everything right, something bad happens. Whatever the cause. On an $800 wildebeest perhaps not the end of the world, but on a $5000 (in this case which would largely be the exception) to $15,000 trophy elephant, it is a bit more of an issue. It is how the parties work it out that speaks volumes about their character and integrity.

Ivan Carter wrote an article in one of the magazines that I read in Zim in April, in regards to a hunt where he was the client being guided on an elk hunt I think. There could have been more detail, but the essence was that having done this, he is in a better position to appreciate what his clients experience. Something to be said about walking in another’s shoes...

I have posted this before, but it is still the most profound example to me as to what can happen. A wealthy, intelligent and successful German banker and gentleman is on a big-dollar hunt, and my son and I are sharing a camp with him and his wife. I am hunting leopard, and he primarily elephant. Never at the time did I dream I too would be able to hunt elephant, and I thought this was my opportunity to observe what it was all about. It is a bit early in the season, and the bush is reasonably think but not terribly so and much of the area is mature woodland. The client’s eyes are not the greatest. He has never hunted elephant before, and the elephant in the Caprivi are not to be taken lightly, although not extremely aggressive they are huge. The PH has hunted numerous elephant, and other than being a bit hot-headed, has a good reputation and loves to hunt. About mid-way thru the hunt they come up on a good bull. The PH described what happened to me to the effect of:

quote:

"I got him very close and set him up for a side brain shot, but it was taking him forever to shoot. He was fiddling with his rifle, and eventually shouldered it. I shouldered mine to back him up as we had discussed. More time passed and he didn’t shoot, so I lowered my double to see what the **** was going on, and then he shoots. The elephant turned and ran. I quickly shouldered and shot twice, hitting him once but my shots were rushed and not good.”

By the end of the day, back at camp the client is very sullen. His account of what happened was basically:

quote:

“Bill, try as I might, I could not see the elephant. I kept looking, and “Hans” was yelling at me to shoot, getting upset that I did not. But I could not see the elephant, everything looked the same. So finally I just shot at where I thought the elephant to be. It did not kill him. Hans then got very mad at me and the rest of the day was terrible.”

What had happened was that, unbeknownst to the client, he had in fact made a perfect shot on a big Leadwood tree (gray just like the elephant). The first shot from the PH’s double had missed the spine but penetrated enough into the body to eventually kill the elephant. The client had to pay the ~$10K trophy fee (this in 2003) and was done elephant hunting. He blamed himself, and spent the rest of the trip depressed, following around as best he could the PH and trackers trying and find the elephant in/amongst lots of other elephant activity, before finally giving up assuming the bull made it into Botswana. Weeks later, a bull was recovered in the concession, but nature Conservation was not going to let the client take possession of the elephant stating that there was no proof that it was the same elephant, which angered the client, recalling of course that the client never actually shot the elephant. Just bad all around. I also learned that the client had given the bushman trackers huge tips (as well as the PH despite the hard feelings, which he refused/declined), and one of the guys went on a bender, getting so drunk and out of his head that he stabbed another guy, and got sent to jail…but this is another story!

Anyway…..unless game is extremely scarce and even then only after serious consideration and mutual agreement, the PH should do everything he can to put his client in position to make the very best shot he can. If the animal winds them or whatever before the client is set, so be it. The client should not moan and groan that he never got a shot, and the PH should not club the client to his face or behind his back that he was too slow to be hunting Africa. Nobody wants a wounded and lost animal, especially the dude paying the trophy fee. I have taken a few shots under pressure that I should not have, and I have more frequently and properly declined to fire despite being issued the shoot-command. I have made great shots, and have made painful blunders that resulted in wounded (and in one case lost) game. Hunt long enough, we all experience just about everything...if you doubt this, keep hunting!

Karl, perhaps there was nothing more reasonable that you could have done and the contract covers you, but if you can maintain a decent relationship with the client, perhaps have him back on a future hunt and cut him a break somewhere. I have learned in business that a small bone will often do wonders, when one is looking long term. I hope it works out.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
...unless game is extremely scarce and even then only after serious consideration and mutual agreement, the PH should do everything he can to put his client in position to make the very best shot he can. If the animal winds them or whatever before the client is set, so be it. The client should not moan and groan that he never got a shot, and the PH should not club the client to his face or behind his back that he was too slow to be hunting Africa. Nobody wants a wounded and lost animal, especially the dude paying the trophy fee. I have taken a few shots under pressure that I should not have, and I have more frequently and properly declined to fire despite being issued the shoot-command. I have made great shots, and have made painful blunders that resulted in wounded (and in one case lost) game. Hunt long enough, we all experience just about everything...if you doubt this, keep hunting!

A great deal of good information in your post Bill

As far as the section quoted above, my experience was that Karl is the antithesis of that sort of pressure to shoot. Very calm, almost non-chalant advice and stoic patience. Confidence inspiring. I realize that you didn't suggest he behaved otherwise but it provided an opportunity to address a question that might have popped up.

Rather interesting discussion.

I have accidentally shot 2 animals with 1 round before, and paid up for it. I assumed I would have to, and no questions were asked about it.

In the situation above, I would feel that I had to pony up the $5K, but would feel a lot better about it if the operator/PH took some ownership of bad luck and cut a deal. Really, it was a freak situation. Its also possible that the client did not have the $$$ to pay an additional $5K.

I have also been around PH's before where a topic like this came up (actually about the client shooting the wrong animal), and pretty much the discussion went with me saying I pulled the trigger, I live with the results. Strangely enough, the PH's were saying, I put you in this situation, its my fault, I'm the professional here, I pay the price. These folks were employed PH's, not owners, so they would be paying out of their $300/day salary, not their cut of daily rates/TF/etc.

The interesting part to me of my discussion with the PH's was that clients tend to think of this as "money"- that we feel that if we pay whatever fine or TF, we have done right by everyone and tend to be willing to say, Yes, I did it, here's the money, I'm sorry.

The other side of this I was a little less knowledgeable about is that this is the PH's livelihood, and if they have too many client screw ups, it will have severe repercussions on the PH. If we pay the fine, the various game departments are happy with us, but the PH has a black mark on his record with their authorities as well. In other words, the game department folks will hold it against the PH even if you walk in, say you screwed up, what is my fine and pay it.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
It's why you need to always use softs and never shoot into a herd.

The PH should pay up for letting the client shoot into a herd.

Are you advocating using a soft on ele?

This whine fest started out without any mention of what animal was shot and/or wounded.

Lighten up will, I was just having fun...

I'm glad it wasn't me. Unfortuneatly, the client needs to Man Up and pay. My guess is the outfitter could have offered to mitigated the situation somewhat. Maybe he could have offered a reduced day rate on a future hunt, let the guy stay a bit longer, do some culling, or any number of other ways of providing value at little or no cost to the outfitter. I'm not saying he should but, if the client is a decent guy and wasn't a dick about the situation, maybe make the guy feel like he recieved some value may have resolved a touchy situation. Just thinking out of the box.

It is always a good business practice for an Outfitter to make sure that his client leaves a happy camper. If a few dollars will do that, it is probably money well spent.

465H&H

Observations and opinion

First if the guy cannot shoot any better he should have admitted to himself and the to the PH. But sometimes we over estimate or skills.

The guy with the gun calls the final shot,it is his decision and his alone. The PH can only set sticks close ( if used) and call for a shot but it is the hunters job to make the final adjustment and call. It is the the hunter and only he or she to make the final call and be responsible for the terminal end.

Probably or perhaps many times when a PH says "shoot" that is an optimum moment. And the moment is always passing, hence the "shoot.... Shoot"

There may be those PHs that are anxious to have the person with the firearm to take any available or questionable shot at quarry. In that event it is still the hunters final call.

I wonder if, too often the shooter has no " Physiological ownership of the moment" because of failure to study animal (s), environs, lack passion and pursuit of the total experience. One must also consider "not having ownership of the moment " because of improper training,no training, bad shooting habits, fear of recoil etc. all of which can lead to indecision ,therefore , delay and poor shot placement..

Then a friend, who is a PH, ( who will remain un-named) once made this observation.


'As a personal observation, a number of mishaps occur in the hunting field when the client is a plodder and a collector. A plodder being one who takes no interest in his surrounds and what is going on. He plods on in sufference as his only goal is to collect whatever to prove whatever? A plodder only shoots because that is part of the deal that he can't get away from. There are those who will actually (we hear tell) request that the P H does the shooting for him and hand over a monster tip to keep the story quiet."

Were I to rent a hotel room ,have an intruder enter with a weapon, and my wife saying "shoot" and I shoot thru him ,thru the wall and hit someone in an adjacent room... would I not be held responsible ? Or should I blame the hotel owner or lay the responsibility on my wife.

The guy looking down the bbl is the decision maker as is the guy behind the wheel of a truck. To shed the misfortune of my decision on anyone else is an evasion of personal responsibility.

Elton Rambin
Mail/Ship: 1802 Horse Hollow Rd.
Barksdale, Texas 78828
Phone: 479 461 3656
Ranch: 830-234-4366
Check our Hunt & Class Schedule at
www.ftwoutfitters.com

Because You only Have One First Shot

Elton Rambin

The contract basically says,, regardless of all the circumstances, you pull the trigger,, you buy the animal... The tough part is it was an expensive animal,, not a wart hog or impala....Karl should not have to pay for the clients bad shot or bad luck...Just like one time I borrowed a friends boat,, the motor burned up,, nothing I did wrong, just bad timing on my part,, I bought the engine even though I could not possible afford to do so.....Lesson learned,, I don't borrow what I can't afford to buy,, I don't hunt what I cant afford to hunt.....

Yes I have paid for animals wounded,, yes i have paid for unseen animals behind the trophy killed by a pass through,,, it happens if you hunt long enough.

Client should pay up,, and tell a really good story about how he shot 2 elephants with one bullet,,,,,,

well, not that amount, not the same situation for the importance of the animal hunted, but I hit two kudus at the same time, because a young bull crossed running the firing line. I was really concentrated aiming the old bull that I did not see the young one. So at the end I well hit both.
I looked for a gentlememn agreement, so I paid the outfitter value for the young bull.

You wrote:
5) I am not asking him any more than the cost to me on the elephant.

a honest proposal, IMHO

"my contract states that if any animal is shot intentionally or unintentionally and the government decides it has to be paid for, the client is responsible."

End of story, but I'm a lawyer. That's the contract -- your word, your bond.

Notwithstanding, I'm responsible for the bullet that I fire start to finish.

I've refused to fire when a PH says shoot and I've shot when I thought it wasn't a good idea. My decision. My responsibility.

Sometimes, a good result, like when a PH pushed me to take a shot that was longer than wanted; sometimes not so good, when I had difficulty understanding that a Brit's interpretation of "the one facing to the left" was facing to the animal's left, not mine.

Either way, if I pull the trigger, it's my responsibilty.

Another aspect of this I do not understand is that if these two elephants were so close together as it appears in the photo, could not the elephaant in the background be seen? If so, no one should have been shooting. If the far ele couldn't be seen:

Then it brings up the problem with hunting when the foliage is still thick.

Of course the outfitter/PH wants income 365 days a year. But is this the result of one of the real problems with hunting early?

I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised to hear the sales pitch about early/summer hunts being "no problem", "the best time to hunt", blah, blah

Karl, as a matter of interest and having looked at the photo of the scene, please help a little. I take it that the target elephant was standing facing to your left and roughly equated to 10'o clock. If I have surmised correctly, and the bullet was put into the left ear, then the bullet should have exited the skull above and behind the right eye.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
A shoot through on elephant is always a possibility and the bullet seldom goes straight. In my experience the bullets usually turn up to 45º as they exit the skull- on the elephant culls probably 50% of the bullets exited the heads of females and sub adults and you would often see the bullet striking the ground on the other side of the elephant. A couple of the more experienced culling officers maintained that the bullet would usually hit the ground the same distance on the other side of the elphant as you fired from. I couldn't swear to this, but seen the dust kick up often enough as the bullet hits the ground on the far side.

Who's fault? well, it is one of the inherant possibilities of elephant hunting and if the client wants to hunt Ele then that is one of the risks (like catching malaria) and it is to his account for the actual elephant trophy fee and the operator takes the hit on one animal off quota (so he looses the income from the daily rate on the now canceled second elephant hunt)

Ganyana,

I have seen the same thing with bullets striking the ground lower than what I would have expected after passing through a buff or elephant as well as deer and elk. I have assumed it is because the bullets velocity is greatly slowed and therefore its trajectory has been altered. The bullet is slowed during penetration and has a much steeper trajectory curve after it leaves the animal causing the lower strike point.

465H&H

Well, I voted for "should be shared", not because that is necessarily the right or legal solution but because that is the ONLY solution that might save the Outfitter/PH from having to come up with all the money out of his pocket.

If I'm reading this correctly, the client is probably well back home in his home country and is refusing to pay. If Karl has said something to the effect of "Poop happens, you know you owe this (see contract), but since it is so much money and such a strange circumstance, let's split it", then he might be off the hook for $2500.

It's all well and good to be on the right side, which Karl is, but he's still out $5000.