We have just had the PH shooting exam this morning and also a chance to actually talk to Howard Hunter- the PH who was run over by a buff and then shot by the client last year.

Both candidates with the new CZ rifles failed as they kept knocking the safety catch on dueing the speed shoots. One other appy with a new rifle had taken it in for modification after he had the same problem in practice.

Howard is still a mess and commented that he got sorted out because he accedently put the safety on during a quick reload with his new CZ .458 Lott. The buff was wounded and charged. Two shots had no effect, on the second reload though Howard knocked the safety on. He hit the buff beween the eyes with the muzzel whilst trying to pull the trigger! Got thrown, Shot, And the buff tried to crush him. Again he placed his rifle between the buffs eyes and tried to shoot, and then realised what was wrong. The muzzel in the face had broken the buffs attack and Howard shot it in the neck as it ran over him.

Have seen this occasionally before with the CZ's and the interarms mk X rifles.

Anybody else had this problem? Was it just a bad batch of rifles that were sent to Africa?

What a terrible way to find out about such a problem.

This needs to be sorted out with the mfg. in a hurry. Their are too many things that can go wrong when hunting D.G. and this sort of thing shouldn't be one of them. I am anal retentive about checking safetys while hunting do to an event when i was 19 and on my first Old George hunt. It is a feeling you canot explain when you pull the trigger and nothing happens, because the saftey is on when it shouldn't be. I hope things go well for him and he comes back with a new found knowledge of what can go terribly wrong so terribly fast. Thank God the client stood his ground and did what was needed at the time. Our prayers go out to him. Charlie

This has been noted in the past here and on NitroExpress.com.

At first I thought it was a non-issue until I did it myself at the range. I pointed this out to CZ but have not heard if there is any decision to change the design. CZ has a point that if you put the safety ON then it should be ON and be unable to pull the trigger. But if you accidentally do it in the heat of the moment in a charge or the appy test, well that could be a problem!

I have modified my CZ's such that when the bolt is thrown forward, the safety, if ON, is pushed to the OFF position.

Others might want to consider this modification.

Excuse my ignorance but when I examined my appy PH"s CZ 375 it appeared to have a safety that was "off" when the safety was pulled to the rear. A new one I recently bought has the safety operating in the normal way being "off" when it is pushed forward. Is this correct and if so could the safety being operated backward have contributed to this accident?

CHEERS!
465H&H

How does the safety get "ON" by accident?

Is this on the CZ550 or on the "backwards" zkk602?

Is this a mechanical or operational error?

Les

Here's Bill's original post CZ Safety

Interesting that this appears to be fairly common occurrence. So, as I understand it, you can accidentally put the safety in the ON (rearward) position when the bolt is opened. Close the bolt and the safety is ON.

Regards,

Terry

.

Hi Alf

3) Yes plenty pass- today 7 passed and six failed. You have to pass the shooting exam before you may do PAC hunts in the parkes estate and also before you can attend the interviews to be considered for the proficiency exam. The "exminer" is usually Charlie Haley, head of Forensic Balistics in our Police Department with observers from National Parks and the PH union. The certificates are awarded by the Zimbabwe Shooting Sport Federation rather than anybody directly involved with hunting.

All "examiners" for the proficiency have passed a shooting exam, although the current format has only been in place for the last four years. Prior to that, Don Heath or Steve Alexander set up a shoot at the proficiency exam venue, each different according to location but usually involving targets on runners or bobers a la IPSC. Don would then do the shoots and the pass mark was set at 50% of his score. Too many black appy hunters and guides failed the proficiency because of the shooting exam, so it was moved beforehand. Also Parks asked the ZSSF to devise a shoot that was standard, would test gun handeling skills as well as marksmanship and be relevant and repeatable.

!) The shoot was designed by Charlie Haley, Ken Worsley and Chris Pakenham (last two ex culling teams) and was designed, without the use of moving targets , to test competancy in firearms handeling and shooting ability. No subjective scoreing for any part of the exam was acceptable to parks.

Standard IPSC targets are used instead of the old military Fig 11's. There are four stages A total of score of 115 is required to pass.
1) Accuracy 2 shots at 75m, own time, only the "A" zone to count ten points a hit.

2) Speed- Max three rounds in the rifle- 3 targets at 10,15,20 m. One shot on each furthest to nearest, reload and one shot on each again closest to furthest.
target points /time x 45 = point score
Need a full house score in 24 seconds to break even. Targets score 5,3,1 with a 9,3 or .375 and 5,4,2 with a .416 or larger.

Two best scores on this shoot were bob WC with a .470 ( full house in 12 seconds for 112,5 score) And Spike Claarsens 28 points in 11,01 seconds for 114,4 score)

3) Run down- 40m run and 4 targets at 10,15,20,25m.
Target points/time x 35= score

need full house in 20 s to break even

4) Fire and Movement. 30m run then 3 targets at 5 m intervals 10m distant from the shooter. Only one target is visable at a time so you need to keep moving down the path.

Target points / time x 26 = score

need a full house in 20 seconds to break even.
Notable best was a full house in 9,3 seconds.

So, very possible to pass provided your rifle works and you are very familiar with it. I managed a score of 184 under exam conditions. - always easier to do better when it isn't for a certificate and there isn't a mob watching!

I use a Mauser model A in 9,3 x 62, or a H&H .404. Used to use a Webly .450 NE as well.

2) An exam seems to break rifles. My 9,3 has never let me down but the H&H jammed once.- a round broke through the front of the magazine box and jambed the system totaly. Charlie Haley, Ken Worsley, Chris Pac and most of the other "serious" big bore shooters use an F.N. .458 win. The F.N. rifles are the only production heavy rifles that I have found as "shootable" as my mauser or H&H (I wouldn't class the H&H as production). I like the new manlichers as well but they don't quite have the same "feel" for me. You are not going to manage the speed shoot in those times if you are going to muck arround with sights. We have experimented with taping the sights over, and with a good fitting rifle it makes no difference. We used to force the guys to do a night shoot holding a torch in their week hand. Showed up many other rifle defects.

I have said it elsewhere on this forum, but I cannot buy an IPSC ready pistol or revolver "over the counter" and expect it to perform. It needs a tweek. So do almost all factory rifles.


No, old PH's don't have to re-qualify. One hopes you have enough sence to keep the practice going. Actually it is the pro guides who need to renew it. They should never have to fire their rifles and the good ones probably shoot one animal a decade, but when they need to shoot they need to do so badly.

So Set the shoots up and try them. Get an audiance though and someone behind you with a proshot timer and all defects in a rifle come rushing to the fore!

.

Ganyana,

Thanks for the most excellent insight into your profession.

Why do not more PHs use Double rifles - expense?

One would think that in a situation where clients may not be experienced / poor marksmen a PH would be wise to cary a .470 or the equal.

Why don't more do this?

Thanks for the insight,

Jeff

Thanks for the heads up Ganyana.

For an iron-sighted bolt gun, I prefer the 3 pos flag safety that Paul Mauser designed for the military model 98's.

quote:

Howard Hunter- the PH who was run over by a buff and then shot by the client last year.

Wow this was hard way to findout that the few dollars that you save buying cheap eurotrash rifles might be the most expensive money you have ever saved.

Mr Hunter next time use a good American made rifle like a Ruger 77 in .458 Lott, and then maybe you will be the Hunter not the Hunted.

WWW.ruger-firearms.com

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Wow this was hard way to findout that the few dollars that you save buying cheap eurotrash rifles might be the most expensive money you have ever saved.

Mr Hunter next time use a good American made rifle like a Ruger 77 in .458 Lott, and then maybe you will be the Hunter not the Hunted.

Yeah, I don't know how people can put there life in their hands with those Eurotrash Mausers every year.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:

quote:

Howard Hunter- the PH who was run over by a buff and then shot by the client last year.

Wow this was hard way to findout that the few dollars that you save buying cheap eurotrash rifles might be the most expensive money you have ever saved.

Mr Hunter next time use a good American made rifle like a Ruger 77 in .458 Lott, and then maybe you will be the Hunter not the Hunted.

WWW.ruger-firearms.com

Sir, that is a bit of a crass remark to someone who is well respected, suffered a debilitating accident, and is working hard to recover.

And are you sure you want to recommend Ruger?

quote:

Then we come to one that surprises me. Ruger. The early Ruger M77's with the non rotating claw extractors but still a push feed mechanism, in .458 Win could be relied upon to jam if the bolt was worked quickly. In the 1980's the National Parks culling teams found this out the hard way and the new Rugers were quickly disposed of or issued to stations where a heavy rifle was seldom required. The new MkII Ruger with a proper controlled feed seemed to be a vast improvement and were reputed to work a whole lot better and of course come at a top dollar price. I learned differently. All but one out of seven I’ve seen or handled this year (6 in .416 Rigby and one .458 Win) would not eject if the bolt was opened vigorously. Slow down just a fraction and they throw the empty case half way into the next province. For a client coming out to Africa this may be acceptable. Any really fast fancy shooting is going to be the PH’s.

For the Professional Hunter or Guide though, a rifle that is guaranteed not to eject when worked at speed is a death sentence waiting to happen. The fault lies with the sprung loaded ejector that springs into place as the bolt is withdrawn. Work the bolt at a moderate speed and the ejector is in place to cleanly throw the case clear. Work the bolt fast and the ejector is still on its way up when the case passes over it. A few will work provided the ejector is scrupulously clean and well oiled but many will not do even that (and how do you keep it clean AND oiled in the usual dusty conditions?). A much stronger spring and a little polishing of the raceway that it fits into may cure the problem, but they are not safe as they come from the factory. A local gun shop tells me that they have sent two new rifles back this year because of this problem, and our local top gunsmith tells me that while most can be made to work perfectly, some cannot. Ruger needs to wake up, their No.1, single shot rifle is a far safer and more dependable weapon than their bolt action.

http://www.african-hunter.com/lessons_learned.htm

Dr. B,
Suddenly you have learned the difference between your ass and your elbow, eh? Suddenly you are a rifle expert?

Oh, I am rude? Well I am no Doctor of Social Work, and neither are you. If you really are a "Dr." of some sort, then you are giving doctors a bad name.

So, 500grains has set you straight. Good work on his part.

And I hope Fjold's sarcasm was not lost on you, but it probably went right over the top of your head.

Before this totally turns into a stinking(I typed another word to start with) contest over brand names, Are you refering to the backwards safeties or the newer ones that fire when forward or are you concerned about it's location on the rifle next to the tang? THanks.

Wow this was hard way to findout that the few dollars that you save buying cheap eurotrash rifles might be the most expensive money you have ever saved.

If anyone wants to dispose of there trash cz's I will gladly take them off your hands for nothing

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Both candidates with the new CZ rifles failed as they kept knocking the safety catch on dueing the speed shoots. One other appy with a new rifle had taken it in for modification after he had the same problem in practice... on the second reload though Howard knocked the safety on.

This has been noted in the past here and on NitroExpress.com.

At first I thought it was a non-issue until I did it myself at the range.

I have modified my CZ's

Have seen this occasionally before with the CZ's and the interarms mk X rifles.

Interesting that this appears to be fairly common occurrence.

500grains
I read the African Hunter article some time ago(as well as every other article on there webb sight) I did not belive it then and I do not belive it now. The author is decidely anti-american nothing made in america is as good as a European product. (execpt or money)
As you can see there are many accounts of the substandard quaility of the CZ just on this thread, if you search this forum it is amazing how many people have problems with the saftey, the stock, the triger and just crude workman ship. Other than this guy in AH magazine I have seldom read of problems with the Ruger.

In reguard to the crass remark about Mr Hunter. What is a PH that makes his living with a gun and is responsible for protecting his client his employes and himself with this gun, using a $700 rifle that is known for its deficencies.
I don't think that I will hunt with a PH that is to cheap to buy a reliable rifle.

quote:

Howard is still a mess

Ganyana, I take it your comment refers to Mr. Hunter's physical state - i.e. there is still some way to go before (full) recovery?? Will Mr. Hunter work as a PH again??

- mike

This sounds like excuses more than a problem with the CZ rifles. As a police firearms instructor, I hear many of the officers blame their handguns for poor marksmanship. If a PH candidate can't handle the stress of a shooting exam without becoming fumble fingered, I sure as hell wouldn't want he or she backing me up on a hunt. IMHO. I own a CZ 375 and love it. Looked at a Ruger RSM that was a POS brand new in the box.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
...I read the African Hunter article some time ago(as well as every other article on there webb sight) I did not belive it then and I do not belive it now. The author is decidely anti-american nothing made in america is as good as a European product. (execpt or money)

In reguard to the crass remark about Mr Hunter. What is a PH that makes his living with a gun and is responsible for protecting his client his employes and himself with this gun, using a $700 rifle that is known for its deficencies.
I don't think that I will hunt with a PH that is to cheap to buy a reliable rifle.

Hmmmm, Dr.B, I think quite a few people here will object to those remarks. Quite apart from the (non-)issue of Europe v.s. the US, I believe we can safely leave it up to PHs with more than a decade's experience to choose their own tools. Most of us (yourself included?) will never achieve anywhere near the African field experience the PHs do. The fact that 99% of us dream of going to Africa more than 50 weeks per year, and maybe get to actually go for 2 weeks (if that, on average), explains why we collectively spend so much time considering (dreaming about?) this piece of gear or that. Too much time to dream about the stuff, too little opportunity to actually try it out.

All rifles can fail - witness the failure of Keith Atcheson's M70 when the chips were down. Africa is not exactly inundated with choices in firearms, ammo or all the stuff you have come to take for granted in the US. Nor do you make a fortune by guiding people in the bush, so the comments of being "cheap" are uncalled for.

All in all, I would consider your remarks, uninformed, inexperienced, narrow minded and nationalistic - or just plain dumb, maybe??

A very good day to you, Sir.

- mike

I've had the same problem with the safety that comes with the Mark X Mausers. The shroud will sometimes drag on the safety, pulling it into the safe position.

Dear Ganyana.

Thanks for informing. For a long time I wanted to know how Zim PHs are tested.
Thank You very much. Most interesting. I saved you report and even printed it.
I craved to have a try a this testing. The trouble is to find a suitable place. Our range accommodates the poor German shooters who are more and more harassed in their country. Anyhow I cannot imagine the range letting me run and shoot. I have to organise it in a remote forest.
About my Eurotrashes, I think my Sauer could fail, may be not my Mauser style Dumoulin.
You eulogize the FN rifles : there is no FN rifles available now. Am I right. The production ceased a long time ago?
Thanks Ganyana, your are a real asset on this forum.

Concerning CZ DGR, a close friend bought a 375HH a couple of months ago. Quite immediately the bolt got jammed. No way to open it. The gunsmith easily found the cause. In fact it was the fault of the safety which blocked the bolt.

mho - Howard was shot in the left arm with a .416. In at the wrist and out the elbow. The bones have still not joined and he is wearing a plastic splint. At the moment he is supervising the building up of a new conservancy in Moz

Alf- We have enough trouble maintaining standards as they are. Africa dislikes standards that are above rock bottom. The best we can do is set the initial standard high enough so that the man is very familiar with his rifle and hope he keeps practicing and never looses it.

Jeff, Many of the older PH's do carry doubles. All of the guys comming on the shooting exam are apprentices and very few can afford a new rifle of any sort let alone a double. There is a Ruger No 1 that has been doing the rounds since long before I started examining. An appy uses it, qualifies, uses it for a season, buys a bolt action and then we see another appy who is happy with his cheep .375.

Appy's wages at the moment run arround $150 a month. Sure board and lodging thrown in but still. Got to buy your own vehicle and rifle and ammo enough to get good.

For Dr B. Rugers were purchaced in large numbers in 1984 by our Parks department to replace the .404's and .425's that were wearing out. Every one had feeding trouble and all were welded up (200 of them) rather than sell them onto the market and risk new hunters lives. When we could still swap a .458 for a .404 or 2 .458's for a double, you could supply any make but Ruger! To be fair Rugers have got a heck of alot better since then but a bad rep hangs arround long after the problem is cured, and in my experience Ruger still haven't sorted out the ejection issues in the .416 Rigby's- haven't actually got my hands on a Lott out here yet.

Also, for the guys who are going to try the shoot, start possition for all but the accuracy shoot is rifle loaded or on over ride, held at the trail in one hand or carried on a sling over the shoulder. NB it is quickest to be in the left hand for a right handed shooter or muzzel down over the left shoulder if a sling is used.

Hello Ganyana!

I hunted with Howard Hunter four years ago when he was still a Apprentice at Charisa. He is a very nice and competant young man. Please pass on to him my wishes for a full recovery. I'd like to hunt with him again.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
The author is decidely anti-american nothing made in america is as good as a European product. (execpt or money)

Switch European for American in your statement and look in the mirror.

And before you list me as un-American, I own one European shotgun but every other firearm I own is American.

.

Hi Alf

There is a difference between what a client needs and what a pro needs. As in IPSC- I buy $2500 guns and still have to work on them... and the top boys who earn a living from it, even more so.

For a PH, who has actually got a decent reputation and no family etc who is making the money, a Manlicher, A Krieghoff double (I am sure there are other good makes of double at a reasonable price) etc. Otherwise, the CZ is still "best Buy" but then you have to spend some money on it. From the factory, the ones we see here are not up to standard for a "professional"!

Sadly, in this day and age, spending lots of money doesn't always work - look for Charlie Haley's report in an upcomming African Hunter mag on a $9000 Rigby that has fallen appart 3 times and been factory rebuilt twice in 50 shots...

For a Client comming out, a Ruger, Winchester, CZ... great, Only rifles I have a serious reservation about are Rem 700 in .416 rem. I would advise my client to change rifles if we were doing a tuskless ele hunt and he wanted to use a Rem.

From a survey I conducted in '97 580 buffalo out of 912 shot that year were taken with a .375

201 elephant out of 407 were taken with a .375

The members of this forum are, in the main I think, shooting as much as hunting enthusiasts and therefore there is considerable discussion on the finer points of each cartridge and rifle.

The average buff dies comfortably with one shot from a .375, It is the exception that gives them a (deservedly) nasty reputation. Also who starts the fight? If the buff initiates he often has a sporting chance, but if the hunter does... Like a bar fight, I have never met a man I couldn't beat, provided I hit him first, from behind, with a chair. Likewise the buff should never know you are there.

Yeah, but how many were single shot .375's?

Undisturbed buff are fairly easy to dink with a .375 but I would never use one on ele's.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
.... but I would never use one on ele's.

And so if you don't then anyone that does is suicidal right?

WAYBTTT?

With regard to any problem on a CZ rifle, contact CZ USA by email. I did this when the c-clip on my 550 failed while hunting feral cattle in Hawaii a couple of years ago. CZ responded in relatively short time (for a gun maker) and might be equally responsive now.

Ganyana, what exactly are you calling a "FN 458"? Does that mean a 458 on a 98 Mauser FN action or did FN make and sell 458's? I can't recall having seen one that wasn't marked for some other maker, even if the action was an FN 98. Also, what about the Interarms 458's that are made on Mauser-type actions?

thanks,


Okie John

Gentlemen, please help me understand this reported frequent malfunction. I use a CZ DG rifle w/ the current 2-position safety (forward to fire). Inspecting this rifle I cannot see anything mechanical w/ the bolt or shroud that will engage the safety and knock it off full forward (fire) position by operating the bolt. This would be a mechanical issue needing attention (like the loose c-clips), but I cannot see any such defect w/ my rifle. Or, is the complaint that the operator under stress may accidentally hit the safety w/ his hand while operating the bolt? If so, this is an operator error that needs to be corrected by training. There are several different techniques to efficiently manipulate a bolt at speed and all require constant practice. I personally find the current 2 position CZ safety fast and easy to use. Even w/ gloves on (my hands are size large) and using the salute technique, I cannot duplicate this malfunction. I have to be very sloppy w/ my hand work and deliberately swipe at the safety and even then find it difficult to duplicate this malfunction. In addition, I would suggest changing to a Winchester style or Mauser style safety if one finds the 2 position safety awkward. If there is indeed a mechanical defect that may rear its head on my rifle (such as a part that works loose) I would like to know now so I can change safeties.

Thanks,
Gary

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
Or, is the complaint that the operator under stress may accidentally hit the safety w/ his hand while operating the bolt?

That is how I understand it. And if there is a cape buffalo standing on your toes, then of course all bets are off and the unexpected can happen.

In contrast, when a M70 or M98 (flag) safety is used, it is not possible for the operator to inadvertenly push the safety to the ON position while working the bolt. Hence those safety systems are more desirable (to me).

quote:

I have to be very sloppy w/ my hand work

Gary,

Well, that was my thought at first, but when I was dinking around at the range, I accidentally put the safety ON when the bolt was open. Then I'm about to break off the trigger trying to get it to fire. That is when I decided to modify the safety, but to each there own.

Now I have hunted with a CZ in rapid-fire mode and never had a problem but I don't want a problem to surface the next time. I'm not that big a fan of 3-position safeties, as they have their problems too.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

That is how I understand it. And if there is a cape buffalo standing on your toes, then of course all bets are off and the unexpected can happen.

In contrast, when a M70 or M98 (flag) safety is used, it is not possible for the operator to inadvertenly push the safety to the ON position while working the bolt. Hence those safety systems are more desirable (to me).

If it weren't for my need to occasionally mount a scope on my specific CZ, It would wear a mauser flag safety. W/ scope in mind, the 2-position safety has performed well to date (w/ pucker factors included). I'm not disciplined (responsible?) enough to have just one, two or three guns (all w/ the same safety system) for all my professional and sporting needs. I'm cursed in the fact that I like so many different makes and models of weapons having all different types of safeties. Of all the safeties, the most difficult for me to master (requiring the most work) is the one between my ears.

Thanks,
Gary

OK Guys ... as I understand this, we're talking about a design flaw not a failure. That is, if the safety is engaged with the bolt open and the bolt closed the weapon stays on safe.

Have I got it right?

I think this is the case, as it works that way on both my CZ 550 rifles.

Other than simply not engaging the safety with the bolt open ... what can be done about it?

It is how the CZ operates, and not a design flaw. Go back and read the original post if you want to modify the safety.

Okie... F.N. made rifles chambered for the .458 Win in large numbers in the 50's, 60's and possibly into the early 70's. (Don't know when they stopped- with the arms embargo against us new rifles after 1965 came only via USA or France). They also made sigularly horrible .375's. They are a commercial standard '98 action without the thumb cut out on the left side or feed rails for the stripper clips. Many people used these actions including H&H (my .404 is built on an F.N. civi mauser action). They have a traditional Mauser 3p wing safety or could be special ordered with a tang safety.

The interarms rifles I have seen here are built on standard Civi Mauser actions, but not as well finished as the F.N.'s. They Have a 2p safety mounted on the right hand side, just behind the bolt handel. Like the CZ's as soon as there is any wear, this safety gets accidently brushed on during reloading ( have seen this several times with the Mk X before I saw it with the new CZ -They only started arriving incountry last year due to the arms embargo).

As an Interesting historical asside, the Interarms Mk X rifles are some of the most common DGR in central Africa- they were supplied by the CIA as part of a cover up operation on Military weapons being supplied to UNITA. In the mid 80's you could buy a MkX for Z$150 (half a months pay) or a new CZ (Bruno as they were then) came for $300 and a winchester for $480.

The Interarms worked very well, but the barrels wore out very quickly, and you will often hear them condemed by apprentice PH's and new PH's as "Not Hitting hard enough", or you will hear another new horror story about the .458 Win and discover that the rifle used was a Mk X, and when you try the rifle , the bullets keyhole in the target at 50m.

Grahame Hingestone (boss of HHK safaris)is a classic example. Started his career with one, and then slowly (after nearly 15 years of use) found it wasn't working so well on elephant, and then he failed to stop a charge with it , and only just walked away. Bought a new .458 Lott and gave me the rifle. Tried it and sure enough , the bore was worn out. 1700fps with new factory ammo and bullets tumbling. New barrel and it worked like a charm.