Ganyana,

Thanks for (unwillingly) endorsing my Dumoulin.
I believe FN was history. In fact Dumoulin is using FN mecanisms.A trouble, they are not cheap.
dumoulin
Anyhow, I'll try this rifle with sort of the proficiency test you provide us.
This afternon I'll run to the range. I have to be very convincing to be allowed to run like a madman and shoot targets anywhere.
No I'll install these targets in a remote place of our hunting territory. Many friends are still craving for. Thanks again Ganyana.
Again, your are a great asset.

Ganyana,

What was wrong with the FN based .375 as compared to their .458Win's?

Jean,

Those Dumoulin certainly are beautiful rifles!

Regards,

Pete

JB,

Those are beautiful rifles!

But you say that they are using FN actions? Do you mean actions that are modern made FN copys? I ask because I think Dumoulin uses new actions made today, and not older re-finished actions. Or is that what you meant, and I'm misunderstanding?

I understand that F.N. Still makes the actions for Dumoulin who then fit the cocking pieces , barrels etc.

Don Heath has a very nice custom 9,3 with a detachable box magazine, made by Dumoulin but stocked and customised by North-South Arms in New Zealand! It certainly works but have not been impressed with the spare magazines that were sent direct from the factory. Only the three "fitted Mags" from North-South work. The three from the factory need professional attention. I'll be interested to see how much time/effort/money it takes to get them working.

Pete E. The F.N. made .375's were built even lighter than the .458's (which are arround 8lbs max) and for some reason had a different shaped stock. All I can say is "Jasss do they kick! The other problem was they were built on a standard length mauser action with a cutout for the bullet nose in the front reciever ring, and the magazine box set as far back as feasible in that action. This has two consequences.
A) you cannot eject a live round smoothly. When you load you "hook the round in or position it carefully so that the bullets' nose aligns with the small cut in the reciever ring. When trying to eject a live round in a hurry they invarably tend to jamb - why eject a live round? Often on buff follow ups men would put a solid on top and a soft in second and depending on circumstances eject the solid if a soft was a better choice. Same dilema in lion and elephant country.

Secondly, because you have to "fit" the live rounds carefully into the action a fast reload is difficult (though not impossible). I never did get the hang of it. With the .458's you can grab two rounds at a time from your belt and stuff them in if needed but you cannot do this with the .375. I think this was the main reason they were disliked by the culling officers.

I was issued one briefly and carried it for one cull before trading it in for a Bruno 9,3. I spent a few evenings before the cull trying to get the reload right but it didn't work on the day, although it was the excessive recoil that nearly got me squashed later when following up a wounded animal that had got clear of the killing field.

Ganyana, thanks for your replies. It sounds like an Interarms 458 with a military safety and a new barrel is the way to go -- or a good 98 Mauser in 9.3.

Okie John

Ganyana,

Thanks for that..Its funny how a company can do such a good job on one and a real dogs dinner on the other..

Regards,

Pete

Is the CZ croud now convinced that the three position safety A la Pre-64 model 70 is the premier safety for rifles that must work each and every time.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Is the CZ croud now convinced that the three position safety A la Pre-64 model 70 is the premier safety for rifles that must work each and every time.

I have been so convinced for a long time, long before this latest report. All of my CZ actioned rifles have three position safeties. And they all work each and every time.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Is the CZ croud now convinced that the three position safety A la Pre-64 model 70 is the premier safety for rifles that must work each and every time.

A 2 position model 70 safety would be preferable. Some guys push the 3 pos safety to the middle position, pull the trigger and then wonder why the gun did not go off.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Is the CZ croud now convinced that the three position safety A la Pre-64 model 70 is the premier safety for rifles that must work each and every time.

A 2 position model 70 safety would be preferable. Some guys push the 3 pos safety to the middle position, pull the trigger and then wonder why the gun did not go off.

Are these by any chance the same guys who stumble down the street when they try to walk and chew gum at the same time?

Talk is cheap, ain't it?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Talk is cheap, ain't it?

Only because supply exceeds demand--and you ain't helping the price any either.

You either.

What happened to the reformed and remorseful Bill Stewart of just a short while ago? I think he was an impostor and the kidnappers have released the real thing. The only thing I wonder is who in the hell would pony up and pay the ransom?

I was just gonna end this by saying: "Nyah, nyah, and so's your old man," but . . . what the hell, let's be constructive.

To me, it's all about using something that works well, and can be relied upon, as lb404 says, each and every time, and practicing with it until you are so used to using it that you don't even have to think about it and muscle memory takes over.

So, I only have one kind of safety on my hunting rifles: the Model 70 style three position. (I don't count the decocker on my Blasers because that's not really a safety at all.) And I have checked and worked all of them and all are positive and quiet, and none of them has the problem that Keith Atcheson had with his Model 70.

I am used to them and comfortable with them. I know that there are two clicks from off to fire. I don't worry about having the problem that 500grains mentioned--i.e., just moving the lever one click and wondering, if I survive, why my rifle didn't go bang.

If your CZ works for you in that same way, then CZ is for you and I'm glad you caught this hang-up before it caused you any pain. But for me, Mauser had it right and Winchester made it better.

If you really have trouble with the three position safety, you really should rethink the gun ownership issue! I own two types of rifles. Winchesters with three position safety's and Mauser rifles with either two or three position safety's. In all my life I have never had a miss cue on either. This is similar to the arguement over bolt throw length of a pre-64 model 70 long vs. standard action, a rediculous arguement. Pull the bolt back until it stops and push forward and down until the round is chambered. If you have trouble with that either practice until you get it right or take up lawn darts or something equally socially significant!

I suppose I could try to kiss and make up, but the hell with it.

I am sure Keith has done his share of hunting. So had the PH's that have got nailed this year and in the past, specifically the ones with gun "malfunctions."

It is one thing to be casually potting deer (or impala) and never stumble onto a safety or some other gun problem, or never discover some personal weakness in responding to imminent death.

When I think about the people in the military that face personal, up close, fire fights, maybe DG hunting is for wimps. Back in my Vietnam era youth, there was a distinct difference between the opinions of fighting by the veterans I worked with that had seen fire and those that had seen a mean, old typewriter when they had been in the service.

When faced with a real DG charge, I can't help but wonder how all these internet hunting authorities would react. Just how sure are they that their precious rifle is "always" reliable, or for that matter that they themselves are always reliable?

I still think talk is cheap, ain't it?

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, but it's okay if you don't want to make up--and even better that you won't try to kiss me.

As far as rifles and DG hunting go, mechanical problems and operator error seem to have caused a fair amount of mayhem over the years. I know you've read the literature and this forum regularly provides new reports that are sometimes only hours old.

And I'm certainly no expert on rifles or DG hunting, but I have enough experience with both to know that the time to figure out if your rifle works is on the range. That's also the time to figure out whether you can work your rifle.

No one should ever assume that anything his life depends on--like the safety on his rifle--will work without being checked and tested and tested again and again.

Any hunter better have 100% confidence in himself and his rifle when up against dangerous game. That's the whole point. Whether that confidence is justified depends on the outcome each and every time. That's the spice, though, isn't it?

And it's not only DG. I have been charged twice. Once by a zebra and another time by a lion. The zebra came closer to killing me than the lion did.

Will, can you tell us about the charges you faced and whether your rifle had any hiccups at the time?

P.S.:

Not to vent on CZ only, because I know CZ isn't the only maker that deserves to be picked on--after all they're all of them just trying to fit their products into a price point niche, right?--but these are not varmint rifles, these are DGRs for God's sake!

I have to say that it's pretty bad when big bore CZ stocks regularly crack and split for lack of bedding and cross-bolting, when C-clips are substituted for threaded nuts as firing pin spring retainers, when safeties can be swiped on unintentionally (I guess we should all be happy that at least they're not backwards anymore), when bolts are often rough and feeding is often spotty, etc., etc.

I don't mean to blame CZ only for this either--Winchester and others are more or less guilty too. That's just what happens when the accountants take over quality control.

So, test, test, test and test again. And rework everything that needs it.

Yeah, yeah, and I know, quit bitching about it, right?

Damn, Jean Bernard's Dumoulin looks more and more like a great deal at ten times the cost of a CZ.

Where is there a Dumoulin for sale for 10x the cost of a CZ? Is it used?

Yes, used. I saw a very nice Dumoulin .416 Rigby at the SCI convention in '04 for $9,000 and change.

This one's available now. It costs somewhat more than ten times the cost of a CZ .505, but then again, it has just a few more embellishments than the usual model.

E. Dumoulin .505 Gibbs

I'm with Will. Talk is cheap.

The O rings on the Shuttle Booster and the Insulation on the Space Shuttle worked to...until they didn't. Just Like my M-70 did until it didn't. Trusting your life to a mechanical device is always a risk no matter how many times it's been tested. Humbling too when it fails. Just hope it (what ever the unexpected is) does not happen to you. Amusing, some of the comments here.

quote:

Trusting your life to a mechanical device is always a risk no matter how many times it's been tested. Humbling too when it fails. Just hope it (what ever the unexpected is) does not happen to you. Amusing, some of the comments here.

Well said, Keith.

On the internet, if one safety (or substitute anything else for that matter) has a 0.001% greater chance (or history) of failure than another, it will be CONDEMNED, along with the horse it rode in on.

Not to belittle the CZ issue that started this thread, but generally speaking, a molehill is always a mountain under the powerful magnifying glass that is the 'net.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
No one should ever assume that anything his life depends on--like the safety on his rifle--will work without being checked and tested and tested again and again.

Any hunter better have 100% confidence in himself and his rifle when up against dangerous game. That's the whole point. Whether that confidence is justified depends on the outcome each and every time. That's the spice, though, isn't it?

Keith, I agree with what you have said and certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise by the above or by anything else I've posted in this thread. Mechanical devices do fail, even after they have been exhaustively tested. But that is not to say that they should not be tested, and rigorously, in the first place, notwithstanding that there are no guarantees.

Your unfortunate experience sent many DG hunters, myself included, off to their gun safes to check their rifles. Even though your experience was awful, it did result in a good thing. It is also a good thing that this CZ safety flaw has been discovered--in practice and on the range--before someone had to pay the price for it.

Please don't anyone get me wrong. If whatever rifle and safety you choose works for you, then use it, because it's you and that rifle and safety that will be tested, not the critics. But don't assume it will work. Use it and practice with it and don't baby it. Bang it and beat it and shake it like you need salt from it and then see if it still works as it should.

Of course, I do still think that the Winchester sideways modification of the Mauser three position safety is the best there is--at least for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

For a Client comming out, a Ruger, Winchester, CZ... great, Only rifles I have a serious reservation about are Rem 700 in .416 rem.

GanyanaWhy don't you like the Rem 700

Why the rem 700 in .416? Simple, I have seen too many break extractors, particularly in hot weather. In the 9 years I have been examining candidates on the PH proficiency exam I have yet to see one have a trouble free week with a rem in this caliber. I have only ever had two clients try to use one, and both have finished the hunt with a borrowed rifle.

I am not fond of remington rifles, but the few I have seen in .375 seem to be ok. They are awkward to load in a hurry, and I personally am not that keen on them. For a client throwing 12k plus down for a hunt it makes no sense for him to bring a rifle that he is likely to have trouble with. If I am the PH I want as many things going right - before the hunt starts. If I am asked about the rifle he brings I will coment. If he brings one anyway, I'll take a spare rifle along and treat him as though he had a single shot rifle.

Ganyana: Just thought I should say I've used a Rem 700 in 416 Rem in Africa a couple of times. I've had it for probably 20 years with no malfunctions. Maybe I've got an exception or maybe it works because quality control was better when mine was built, but I think most of the newer Rems & Wins come out of the factory as junk.

Hi JD

I am sure that there are good ones, and that during winter in the zam valley even the poorer ones may not cause problems (seems to be linked to slightly higher pressures in the .416 than the .375 which in the hot months gets exacerbated.) Hence my attitude of "advise" but do not be dogmatic!

Mind you, I also once met a fellow that said he had owned a good FORD truck

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Why the rem 700 in .416? Simple, I have seen too many break extractors, particularly in hot weather. In the 9 years I have been examining candidates on the PH proficiency exam I have yet to see one have a trouble free week with a rem in this caliber.

Had these rifles had the extractor replaced with a Sako extractor.
I'm considering a .375 RUM in the Rem.700 for plains Game and a back up for my DG rifle. Do you think I would be better off with a Montana 1999 in .375 RUM

Dr B

All Rifles were standard as far as I know. Jane Alexander broke here on the rifa cource a few years back, had a replacement flown in from South Africa, and that broke during the actual proficiency exam. Didn't know you could fit a sako extractor. The few sako's I have seen here have worked well except for cracked stocks-and the fact they are so light they usually kick the daylights out of me.

Speaking of which, has anybody ever seen an A square rifle built on what looks like a sako action? Rifle was a regular .375 H&H, but in shocking condition. The extractor broke on that in this last shhoting exam ( first shot), but having inspected the rifle I am not supprised.

Fellow who had it said he had bought it from a "recovered weapons sale" in Zambia so other than the fact that it has 3 front locking lugs and was marked A square, I know nothing else about this rifle.

Ganyana,

What is a "Full House" score?

Anyone,

Can the Ruger 3 position safety be changed to a two position safety?

Just so you CZ ;and Rem. owners don't get a complex here's a little warning about Winchesters.

The New ones have a different kind of spring (read cheaper) than the pre 64 for the bolt release. I had the spring in my .375 SS break and when I pulled back. The bolt came completely out of the action. I felt a little foolish with the rifle in my left hand and the bolt in my right, with shell still attached.

No, it was not during a Death defying charge but it was at a local SCI Chapter shoot. Probably worse.

Ganyana!

Your observations on the PH exams are very interesting and helpful. What have you seen with the pre 64 Mod 70's? Must still be a few in 375 H&H and 458 Win floating around there.

465H&H

SBT Full House = maximum possible target score

ie 30 points on the speed shoot
20 points on the run down
15 points on the fire and movement.

Standard IPSC targets scoring 5,3,1 for 9,3 & 375
5,4,2 for .416 and up

.465 Sadly there are very few Pre 64 M70's left. In that initial exodus after dependance (ie when we became dependant on american aid) most "collectors weapons were bought up and exported- as you could only take US$1000 per family that emigrated there was a massive buy up of doubles, Pre 64's etc at vastly inflated prices. The few I have seen are as prized a possestion as one of the F.N. 458's

Mighty praise for the lowly pre-64 model 70 with inferior workmanship, materials, and design!!!!

American Hunting Rifles (AHR) in Montana installed a Mod 70 style trigger and 2 position safety on my CZ action.

I had it plated by ROBAR with nickle and it looks great and shoots great.

400 full power loads and no problems.

Think this will solve any of the CZ problems.

Andy

Why is the knob on the CZ bolts so small? Maybe it's a stupid question but checking out a new CZ550 in .375 it really struck me. Not an issue?