Just to set things straight, from Wiki, backing up what Naki said,

quote:

The wild water buffalo (Bubalus arnee) native to Southeast Asia is considered a different species that is listed as Endangered in the IUCN Red List since 1986

Australian buff are Bubalus bubalus, the same buffalo that has been domesticated for the past 5000yrs or so.

Wild Boar?....pigsh*t....they're feral pigs, just as some outfitters describe feral cattle as 'wild oxen'...

How dangerous are they, I don't know, but I'm in complete agreement with Saeed's comment.

Having said that, this young cow took a distinct dislike to me last year in Vietnam, I was glad she was on a short rope.

I hope to go to Africa soon and shoot a cape buffalo. I hope to go to Australia some day and shoot a Water buffalo. I am sure I will have fun & enjoy both experiences.

I will also be shooting wild / feral goats. My son calls the billies with black shoulder marking "Ibex". If I see one of those spiral horned wooly billies, I'll probably fantacise that it was a Markhor! Dreams are free.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Well, we have seen how someone was trying to spear a buffalo in Australia.

To settle this argument, I would like that individual to go to Africa, find a lone cape buffalo with broken horns, and try the same trick

I would like to see the video afterwards

That video reflected poorly on every living creature within say 100 yds or so.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The one that gets to you.

As long as you keep them off your skin, none of them is dangerous.

That's why mosquitos KILL!!

..I'd worry most about the one that "looks at you as if you owe it money"...

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Ok, I agree, the Aussie buffalo is the most dangerous critter in the whole world. It is a true wild buffalo. It can kill entire villages and charge a tank.

If you upset it, it will swim across the Indian ocean all the way to Assam and kick the butts of all the Assam wild buffalo. It will charge a herd of elephants and smash all the bengal tigers in Assam.

Why? Becuse it is Aussie.

Satisfied?

Oh - Ferral cat versus Wild cat? Some one equated the feral buffalo with the wild bufallo? Remember?

So - I agree that the Aussie feral cat is the most dangerous cat in the world and will kill and skin a wild cat in 10 seconds. It can jump 25 feet in the air to kill a duck - more than a caracal can do! They come in many colours - so you can have a choice of trophy - genetically selected.

Trophy fee?

Now let us talk cricket!

Dang, all this time I thought this was about some taxonomic disagreement, when it was just about Oz versus NZ! No wonder, you're so angry. Man, sometimes I'm just slow...

Antler

That also a taxonomical debate!

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Ok, I agree, the Aussie buffalo is the most dangerous critter in the whole world. It is a true wild buffalo. It can kill entire villages and charge a tank.

If you upset it, it will swim across the Indian ocean all the way to Assam and kick the butts of all the Assam wild buffalo. It will charge a herd of elephants and smash all the bengal tigers in Assam.

Why? Becuse it is Aussie.

Satisfied?

Oh - Ferral cat versus Wild cat? Some one equated the feral buffalo with the wild bufallo? Remember?

So - I agree that the Aussie feral cat is the most dangerous cat in the world and will kill and skin a wild cat in 10 seconds. It can jump 25 feet in the air to kill a duck - more than a caracal can do! They come in many colours - so you can have a choice of trophy - genetically selected.

Trophy fee?

Now let us talk cricket!

Dang, all this time I thought this was about some taxonomic disagreement, when it was just about Oz versus NZ! No wonder, you're so angry. Man, sometimes I'm just slow...

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
For all you downunderers. How many people are killed or injured hunting your buffs in a year. It doesn't seem like we hear of many if any here in the states.

465H&H

Deaths are rare - lots of reasons for that though, if you compare them to Cape Buffalo for instance. Numbers for a start (there are >10 times more Cape buffalo) and much greater human interaction with the Cape. Obviously the Cape has more of a tendency to react violently - either naturally or otherwise.

As far as taxonomy goes.... the binomial nomenclature is far from perfect and there are lots of contradictions - especially at the genus, species & subspecies level. You can have a huge range of diversity within the one species (eg Sus scrofa), or free interbreeding of species within a single genus (eg. Rusa sp.)

People like johnfox and Naki are easily confused, especially when they rely on Google searches for their knowledge.

Matt

You will gain more credibility if you are accurate and honest with your posts.

You know it is a lie when you say that I rely on Google search in this discussion. You know I am originally from India and you have read my posts for years! We have even corresponded a bit.

You are a respected outfitter with a good reputation. Don't spoil it by this BS and trying to say that the Aussie buffalo is as dangerous as the Assam Wild buffalo! You do not even know about the number of hybrids in Assam & how dangerous they are. Do some research and find out what the Assamese people do with the hybrids once they find out that the cows have a hybrid calf. Have you seen Assam village buffalo bulls fight? I have. It is very ferocious and scary! I guess they have some hybrid genes. I lived and worked in Assam! Long before the internet. That is not Google country!

I even know how agressive and cunning a tame domestic buffalo can be. If you keep hassling a domestic buffalo, it can lay in ambush for you! I have had that happen to me in North India on a trek at 7,000 feet in the himalayas and I tried chasing one from the track. Yes it was a small 4.5 foot high animal but it was still cunning enough to hide around the corner of a switch back trail on the trecking track. Lucky for me and my wife, I anticipated it and walked over a ridge and looked down at the track. There he was hiding against the wall and turned facing me! Once it saw me and knew I was on to it, it just ran for the next gully.

The Aussie buffalo & the Assam Wild buffalo are different animals - like the feral goat is differnt to the Markhor though they do interbreed in the wild and some feral goats do have horns & hair like a Markhor!

The feral pig is differnt to the Wild boar. The feral cat is differnt to the Wild cat.

Calling a scrub bull a "Wild Ox" is just marketing - like in the recent article in one of the hunting / gun magazines. It takes the cake when the author tries to claim that these animals are somehow directely descended from original wild stock!

Any domestic animal gone feral is differnt to the original wild animal! Simple.

People on AR are not stupid. They can check out for themselves and find the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

You are a respected outfitter with a good reputation. Don't spoil it by this BS and trying to say that the Aussie buffalo is as dangerous as the Assam Wild buffalo!

The truth?? Where the hell did I say this.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Matt

You will gain more credibility if you are accurate and honest with your posts.

You know it is a lie when you say that I rely on Google search in this discussion. You know I am originally from India and you have read my posts for years! We have even corresponded a bit.

You are a respected outfitter with a good reputation. Don't spoil it by this BS and trying to say that the Aussie buffalo is as dangerous as the Assam Wild buffalo! You do not even know about the number of hybrids in Assam & how dangerous they are. Do some research and find out what the Assamese people do with the hybrids once they find out that the cows have a hybrid calf. Have you seen Assam village buffalo bulls fight? I have. It is very ferocious and scary! I guess they have some hybrid genes. I lived and worked in Assam! Long before the internet. That is not Google country!

I even know how agressive and cunning a tame domestic buffalo can be. If you keep hassling a domestic buffalo, it can lay in ambush for you! I have had that happen to me in North India on a trek at 7,000 feet in the himalayas and I tried chasing one from the track. Yes it was a small 4.5 foot high animal but it was still cunning enough to hide around the corner of a switch back trail on the trecking track. Lucky for me and my wife, I anticipated it and walked over a ridge and looked down at the track. There he was hiding against the wall and turned facing me! Once it saw me and knew I was on to it, it just ran for the next gully.

So what you are saying is that all bovines can be dangerous - gee that's a new concept!!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Calling a scrub bull a "Wild Ox" is just marketing - like in the recent article in one of the hunting / gun magazines. It takes the cake when the author tries to claim that these animals are somehow directely descended from original wild stock!

SCI calls them Ox - that is the reason outfitters and others pick up on the wording... no other reason. Most Australians call them Scrub Bulls or Scrub Cattle, scrubbers, etc. SCI calls them Ox because wild cattle from New Zealand N.I. are included in the grouping. It is a generic term used to describe the feral cattle.

What article are you talking about??

quote:

Any domestic animal gone feral is differnt to the original wild animal! Simple.

So what about the progeny of these animals - is the progeny of a released domestic fallow deer wild or domestic? Or are deer different in your fabricated rule-book??

quote:

People like johnfox and Naki are easily confused, especially when they rely on Google searches for their knowledge.

We probably are Matt, we should have deferred to a higher authority (you) on all things re tropical hunting.

I should have contacted you and sought your counsel, but seeing I didn't I'm off to punish myself with 40 lashes to the foreskin with a wet bus ticket...

FFS, when does the wet season end??????

And FWIW, there are no 'domestic' fallow deer in this country. They have been tamed by farming but never domesticated, there is a difference. I got that from the internet BTW, it's a resource you really should use more often.

quote:

Originally posted by johnfox:
FFS, when does the wet season end??????

This year, god knows, they only just had the
first good dump of rain over the last few days,
2 - 3 months late

I love these threads.

The outfitters try to buld their product and justify their trophy fees.....

The wallet warriors start to measure themselves up ....

The keyboard hunters sprout on.

... and about 1 in 12 posts shows some semblance of sensibility.

AR. Gotta love it.

I guess some of you AU/NZ guys might get to actually hunt a buffalo one day.

Matt
I'll make a deal, you go to Assam and spend a few weeks actually observing the Wild buffalo and I'll come hunt a Aussie buffalo!

Then we can really talk / compare the two animals.

Fair dinkum?

BTW - all the deer in NZ are WILD animals & very few may be from farmed stock but not domestic. BIG differnce. Most of the wild / feral stock in NZ came from wild park animals from the UK & Europe. Yes some stock from velvet farms (artificial insemination or stud stag bred) have escaped into the wild - but a vast majority of the deer are from wild stock.

Not one is from "domestic" deer herds. We do not have Scandinavian reindeer here.

Also - SCI can call anything what they like - like high wire lions that have been drugged & 50 point red stags from velvet farms scoring 600 on their system. I am not impressed by that or by a "Wild Ox"!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Matt
I'll make a deal, you go to Assam and spend a few weeks actually observing the Wild buffalo and I'll come hunt a Aussie buffalo!

Then we can really talk / compare the two animals.

Fair dinkum?

It is you who is making the comparisons between these two - not me!!

What makes you think I haven't been to Assam and seen these buffalo?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

Also - SCI can call anything what they like - like high wire lions that have been drugged & 50 point red stags from velvet farms scoring 600 on their system. I am not impressed by that or by a "Wild Ox"!

Just goes to prove you cant even comprehend what I am writing...

Yep Naki - one day you might get to hunt a buffalo or a Cape buffalo, or even those scrub bulls that you arent impressed by!!

BTW - What have you actually hunted anyhow??

Matt
I am very impressed by the scrub bulls but I am not impressed in calling them "Wild ox".

You have hunted a lot more than me - way more. I have already acknowledged your status as an outfitter of good repute. Why are you now trying to undermine me?

But .... I have hunted in a few places quite successfully that many people would love to hunt in. I have been in the jungles of India in several areas on foot (in the 70s & 80s) that are impossible to get access to now - even for me. Those are my special meories!

I still don't understand why you can not admit that the Aussie buffalo is not a true wild animal but a domestic animal that has gone wild & breeding for over 120 years.

BTW, it was you who made this a pissing contest .....

I have taken all three with no serious issues but I would say that the cape buffalo was the toughest,two shots in the lungs it was still going using a 416 Weatherby,my third shot was a spine shot to drop him.

quote:

Originally posted by capebuf:
I have taken all three with no serious issues but I would say that the cape buffalo was the toughest,two shots in the lungs it was still going using a 416 Weatherby,my third shot was a spine shot to drop him.

Some here will attempt to sell you on the idea that more than 1 shot to kill a buffalo equates to failure! Personally, I find that to be about as far from the truth as possible. I like their tenacity. It's the main reason I enjoy hunting them! But not sniping them!!

Todd Williams,I agree with you,some here have dust for brains,two perfectly placed lung shots and the buf keeps going,go figure.....

Todd,my first lung shot was under 50 yards,after my first shot we walked/ran up to the buffalo,not like some would wait 10 minutes and then follow up..

I'm with you! Love those battle tanks they transform into!

Nothing to do with 'deadliness' of course ... but on average most of our client hunters will say that their Asiatic buffalo was harder to put on the ground than their cape buffalo. I would say around 70% have taken both. I am not 'talking it up' - it is just what clients say.... To be honest I wouldnt have thought their would be much difference. Perhaps it is because the Asiatic is little heavier on average?

I figure the Water Buff can't be too dangerous....Matt hunts them, right? :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I figure the Water Buff can't be too dangerous....Matt hunts them, right? :-)

Ive been chased by a few... client shot one off me once.

Aussie buffalo

Found this on Youtube today... they sure are a weird animal, not to be taken lightly. This hunter obviously knew not to trust them. Most likely a CNS shot that didn't connect properly..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaGFOyCQnys

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Aussie buffalo

Found this on Youtube today... they sure are a weird animal, not to be taken lightly. This hunter obviously knew not to trust them. Most likely a CNS shot that didn't connect properly..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?N...ys&feature=endscreen

[FLASH_VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=zaGFOyCQnys&feature=endscreen[/FLASH_VIDEO]

Nah! Com'on! I reckon ole Naki is about right. Bloody softy old feral thing couldn't even stand up. Just played possum.

Successfully hunted Cape Buffalo with both rifle and bow. Same for water buffalo. In both Australia and Argentina. Great sport and both are tough animals.

I don't think hunting either is quite as dangerous as some might want to let on. But that is little consolation if you are among the minority to get nailed.

Crocodile Dundee has proven that the water buffalo is such a sissy!

I would like to see him try that with an old duggaboy

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Crocodile Dundee has proven that the water buffalo is such a sissy!

I would like to see him try that with an old duggaboy

You mean like this?? I wonder what their favourite treat is??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl8MABHXBz4

That old thing that Paul Hogan played with in the movie was a castrated buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Crocodile Dundee has proven that the water buffalo is such a sissy!

I would like to see him try that with an old duggaboy

You mean like this?? I wonder what their favourite treat is??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl8MABHXBz4

That old thing that Paul Hogan played with in the movie was a castrated buffalo.

Make all the excuses you like Matt.

I saw it with my own eyes a few minutes ago!

He hypnotized that bull!

But, I think I got the better method of hypnotizing cape buffalo, using my own Walterhogs.

I just noticed that bull did not really go to sleep as fast as the ones I hypnotize.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Why try and make it out as a true wild animal?

Naki, you may call them what ever you please, but in my opinion, even though the parents of an individual animal were domesticated any animal that is born in the wild, and never domesticated IS wild for all practical hunting purposes. If they are born wild they naturally avoid humans, and are worthy of trophy status!

Take feral hogs for instance! Many of the so-called FERAL swine are members of original WILD swine trapped and brought to Texas by the Spanish explorers for food on the sea, and released or escaped into what is now Texas. This is evident when the new born from many of them today still exhibit the wild striped coloration till they are about six months old, then take on the brindle coat of the wild adult. They also exhibit the high shoulders, and small hind quarters with a straight tail of the wild swine of Europe.

These animals are smart and very wary, and make a whitetail deer look stupid if hunted on foot by stalking, and are wild by anyone's opinion who have hunted them by stalking instead of over a feeder. Like the swine the wild water buffalo of OZ are wild I assure you.

You may trivialize them if you wish but unlike the dog the buffalo of OZ are unchanged from the original by domestication in some countries!

............................................................................

Mac

I thought this thread had done its time! Well ....

Most domestic pigs in Asian countries (All black village pigs) produce piglets with spots and stripes. But they are not Wild Boar. However they are Suc Scrofa.

In the case of the buffalo - the domestic & aussie animal is Bubalis Bubalis while the Wild Assam buffalo is Bubalis Arnee - totally different species!

BTW - I am going to hunt some Markhor on the farm this weekend. They have hair like a markhor, they look like a markhor, they smell like a markhor. Even the horns have a twist like a markhor. They must be markhor! And they are free!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

You mean like this?? I wonder what their favourite treat is??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl8MABHXBz4

That old thing that Paul Hogan played with in the movie was a castrated buffalo.

Make all the excuses you like Matt.

Telling the truth isnt 'making excuses'!!

So how do you explain the behaviour of the Cape buffalo in the video? I thought one couldn't tame these terrible mean creatures?

I guess you can probably tame/domesticate all the Big Five?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mac

I thought this thread had done its time! Well ....

Most domestic pigs in Asian countries (All black village pigs) produce piglets with spots and stripes. But they are not Wild Boar. However they are Suc Scrofa.

In the case of the buffalo - the domestic & aussie animal is Bubalis Bubalis while the Wild Assam buffalo is Bubalis Arnee - totally different species!

BTW - I am going to hunt some Markhor on the farm this weekend. They have hair like a markhor, they look like a markhor, they smell like a markhor. Even the horns have a twist like a markhor. They must be markhor! And they are free!

Are you some wild pig biologist now??

You cant even get the Bubalus spelling right....

Show us a picture of your markhor? I guess these goats you are hunting are not 'wild' by your definition either??

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

You mean like this?? I wonder what their favourite treat is??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl8MABHXBz4

That old thing that Paul Hogan played with in the movie was a castrated buffalo.

Make all the excuses you like Matt.

Telling the truth isnt 'making excuses'!!

So how do you explain the behaviour of the Cape buffalo in the video? I thought one couldn't tame these terrible mean creatures?

I guess you can probably tame/domesticate all the Big Five?

Matt,

My hypnotizing method works on all the Big Five.

If you doubt my word, just try it.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mac

I thought this thread had done its time! Well ....

Most domestic pigs in Asian countries (All black village pigs) produce piglets with spots and stripes. But they are not Wild Boar. However they are Suc Scrofa.

In the case of the buffalo - the domestic & aussie animal is Bubalis Bubalis while the Wild Assam buffalo is Bubalis Arnee - totally different species!

BTW - I am going to hunt some Markhor on the farm this weekend. They have hair like a markhor, they look like a markhor, they smell like a markhor. Even the horns have a twist like a markhor. They must be markhor! And they are free!

Naki, no matter what you say it matters not what the DNA is of any animal, they all started off from wild undomesticated animals. Wild is a state of mind, not a scientific reading of DNA. Even if an animal is born of two totally domesticated parents, and is born in the wild, where it has no contact with people, it is WILD for hunting purposes!

I’m not arguing scientific/DNA purity, what I am saying is a wild animal is wild, no matter where its parents came from if he is born wild. The water Buffalo of the North territory are as wild as any buffalo any where. The difference between the wild Water Buffalo, and wild Cape Buffalo is because they are two different animals.

Domestication comes from conditioning, not DNA. Even a Jersey bull that is born of two pure bread parents in the bush, never having seen a human is a very dangerous animal, and smart as hell, and is a worthy adversary to any hunter who walks on two legs.

Certainly wild swine in Texas and Arkansas that are called RAZOR BACKS (all wild hogs are not called razorbacks)are far closer to the original wild swine imported by the Spanish explorers than the domesticated gone wild. It is certain that over the last 400 years they have mixed with breading engineered domesticated swine, and that would show in the DNA, but the Razorbacks are far more kin to the wild animals that to domesticated swine. The wild swine of most pure domesticated breeds do not exhibit the stripping in the new born off spring, but are simply clones of their domesticated, genetically engineered, parents. The DNA may show a connection but that has nothing to do with them being wild.

Your village pigs are simply wild pigs that over time have become domesticated and are still the same pig they were in the wild, and are pure. The fact that their young are born with camouflage markings says they are closer to the original wild population than they are to truly domesticated and engineered cross breeding.

It makes little difference if the animal is assumed to be domesticated or wild when he is goring you, or cutting you to ribbons with sharp cutter tusks! In that case I assume him to be WILD, and will not hang my head in shame for having hunted him as a WILD animal, DNA be damned.
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