quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
In reality, the best answers would be from those who have died at the "hands" of these beasties.



posted 27 March 2013 06:12 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by someoldguy:

Some days I think we're all just a bunch of out-of-work comedians here. Big Grin



I'll have you know that I am gainfully employed and paying ridiculous taxes! Big Grin


Mike

Hah! The dues of "socialism??

Yes, gentlemen, we must remember that success is punished nowadays!

Matt

Here we go. Firstly I do not need any soothing of any pain or for any other reason. But you might need some dill after reading the below comments.

Yes we know you are a well established outfitter in Oz and so it is not good business to tell clients that the water buffalo you hunt is a domestic animal and not the real wild ones found Khaziranga.

Yes, you can tell them how dangerous it is and how many people it kills in India BUT you can avoid telling them that the stock was from animals domesticated thousands of years ago and released 170 years ago. You can also avoid telling them that your animals weigh about 1200 lbs less and are about a foot shorter.

BTW you can tell your clients that the pigs you hunt are also the real Wild Boar! After all they have been running wild for over 250 years! You could tell your clients how dangerous they are like the ones in Europe, Iran, Turkey, India and other countries - true Wild Bore. See, even the babies have stripes!

Yes, you could tell your clients that the feral cats in Oz are the true WILD Cat, just the same animal that is hunted in Africa, Europe, India etc. They have just evolved into a differnt coulour in Oz! Ya, the tail is a bit longer and they have no rings in the tail .... BUT what is a few rings and a few inches between friends!

Matt - BTW - what is the trophy fee for the genuine Wild Cat in Oz?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I'll be a sucker and answer this seriously!

Firstly the water buffalo of Australia is NOT a wild animal at all but a domestic animal gone feral. This does not mean that it is not good hunting or of good trophy qulaity. It is a feral animal - period.

This is a MAJOR disctinction as the WILD Buffalo of India & Bhutan is a differnt animal - it stands 6 foot 6 inches at the hump. It is extremely agressive and an adult tiger has little chance against an adult bull.

Wild buffalo are known to charge riding elephants in the Kaziranga national park. Forest department staff are known to be killed regularly.

Comparing it with a cape buffalo is a pointless exercise but enough to say that both are dangerous animals that can kill you.

The bison and the gaur are not really dangerous game though they might have been know to kill the odd person.

JMTBW

You are a complete dill .... are you seriously suggesting that a herd of animals that has been running around in the wilds of Australia for 170-odd years ... isn't a wild animal??

Banteng in Australia are feral animals as well - by definition. Are they not wild either?? Feral of course is an animal that has gone WILD!!!

You need to get a bit more real hunting experience/knowledge under your belt before you can make any claim... to anything.

The WILD water buffalo of India is more dangerous than most Cape buffalo according to those in the know. Today there are few left in the wild and so there are few incidents of human conflict. But they are known to stand off an adult tiger and even attack riding elephants in the park.

I also think that the scrub bull can be more dangerous than a Aussie buffalo. I am sure Matt will chip in here!

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
Every year practically someone gets stomped dead in Yellowstone National Park from a Bison. Not because the Bison is overly aggressive, but because of idiots trying to get a "look at me being brave" picture of them and get to close. Bison do a pretty thorough job of turning idiots into fertilizer.
Cape buffalo are the only ones I have heard of that will activily wait in the shadows and attack a casual passer by, although I am sure you dont want to come across a Austrailian scrub bull face to face in the bush.
Wyoming Jackalope eat bison for breakfast and should be avoided at all costs. There is no DG large enough to defend against a determined jackalope

I'm no expert, but having hunted & killed both the Australian water buffalo & the Cape buffalo, I think I'm a little more fearful of the old lone water buffalo than the Cape buffalo. With my limited experience it seems that the old water buff bulls become loners - unlike small groups of dagga boys who watch out for each other - and then get very defensive of their territory since they are on their own. JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Matt

Here we go. Firstly I do not need any soothing of any pain or for any other reason. But you might need some dill after reading the below comments.

Yes we know you are a well established outfitter in Oz and so it is not good business to tell clients that the water buffalo you hunt is a domestic animal and not the real wild ones found Khaziranga.

Yes, you can tell them how dangerous it is and how many people it kills in India BUT you can avoid telling them that the stock was from animals domesticated thousands of years ago and released 170 years ago. You can also avoid telling them that your animals weigh about 1200 lbs less and are about a foot shorter.

BTW you can tell your clients that the pigs you hunt are also the real Wild Boar! After all they have been running wild for over 250 years! You could tell your clients how dangerous they are like the ones in Europe, Iran, Turkey, India and other countries - true Wild Bore. See, even the babies have stripes!

Yes, you could tell your clients that the feral cats in Oz are the true WILD Cat, just the same animal that is hunted in Africa, Europe, India etc. They have just evolved into a differnt coulour in Oz! Ya, the tail is a bit longer and they have no rings in the tail .... BUT what is a few rings and a few inches between friends!

Matt - BTW - what is the trophy fee for the genuine Wild Cat in Oz?

What a load of bullshit - you are suggesting that I tell my clients bullshit and I do not. It is only YOU who is making these comparisons. Have you even been to the Northern Territory?? You have a very small understanding of the animals here.

The facts ARE that there are several dozen varieties of Bubalus bubalis around the world, all with slightly different characteristics. There is variety of type even in the buffalo of Australia. Wild Indian buffalo are listed as a separate species - it is only you that is making stupid comparisons.

It is fact that the Bubalus bubalis were transported here in the 1830's and released into the wild very soon after... they have been running wild ever since. The same happened with banteng and the different deer species - all running wild for a very long time. Pigs were also released very early on. Domestic pigs of Britain in the 1770's bear little resemblance to the domestic pigs of today - and were much closer genetically to the wild boar of Europe - of which they are all the same species (Sus scrofa).

Matt you are arguing for both sides now.

If the Indian Wild buffalo is a separate species - then why do you call the OZ buffalo a wild animal and not a feral animal? The Banteng is a wild animal because that is the species and it has been released into the Australian wild like the deer & fox.

You argue that the British pig is the same species as the Wild boar (I agree but the taxonomy at the next level varies - the wild boar is S. S. cristatus)

Hence my argument that the same logic should apply to the feral cat in Oz.

Let me be blunt, If you are telling your clients that the Oz buffalo is a wild animal and that it is dangerous game and you fail to tell them that they are from domestic stock that were domesticated many centuries ago, then you are misleading your clients.

FYI there are also several population of feral buffalo in India and they are very distinct from the true Wild buffalo. The feral animals are also very skittish and can charge but they are not the true WILD species.

Naki,

It seems to me that between this "wild" vs "feral" argument, you are picking pepper out of fly shit. What is your ultimate point? That the OZ buffalo is not a potentially dangerous animal to hunt? Sorry sir, but I simply don't buy that position.

I haven't hunted the OZ buff yet, but Matt and I have made some tentative plans to do so in the next couple of years as I'll be bringing both of my sons along. A trip I'm very much looking forward to I might add. I couldn't care less if the designation is "wild" or "feral". Makes no difference to me. They certainly are not "tame", they provide excellent sport, and will hand you your ass if you screw it up. That's more than good enough to attract me to the Northern Territory of OZ.

How would hunting the OZ buff compare to hunting buff in India? I don't know. Neither do you! And it isn't likely that will change for either of us. But shortly now, I WILL know what it's like to go up against the OZ version. I'm stoked!!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

Let me be blunt, If you are telling your clients that the Oz buffalo is a wild animal and that it is dangerous game and you fail to tell them that they are from domestic stock that were domesticated many centuries ago, then you are misleading your clients.

Just because they came from Buffalo years ago that were domesticated doesn't mean they have not became wild again, Heck Ive got tame Rusa Deer and I can assure you that in no time they would return to their wild state. Wild life can be tamed and domesticated.
And those Ferrel/wild pigs of the northern parts are most certainly dangerous. I know many a bow hunter that has been treed by an enraged Boar. Heck one of my Mates was attacked by a Boar last season and luckily only received stitches and not worse.
To the question at hand. Being that Cape Buffalo are being harassed almost all the time does make them a very edgy animal.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
I'm no expert,....I think I'm a little more fearful of the old lone water buffalo than the Cape buffalo.

Then there's that Old Lone Cape buffalo lurking in the thickets as well....

Todd & Adam

I agree with you guys in most cases. My point is to make it clear that the Australian buffalo is not the same animal as the true Wild buffalo which is a lot bigger and lot nastier. Simple.

Tropy is in the eyes of the beholder. hunt experience is the same. I just took my boy behind the house & he shot a rabbit with a 22. Hunting is for fun & for sport. No point degrading one another. But I do object to amking something it is not or comparing it wrongly with something entireley differnt - the WILD buffalo is differnt animal.

Same with pigs. Feral Pigs or scrub bulls may be dangerous and fun to hunt. They may make fine trophies and we all have great fun with mates around a camp fire. That is what hunting is about. But to say that a feral pig is the same as a Wild Boar - no sir! Hence my analogy with feral cats and wild cats etc.

Enough said.

Well, Nakihunter, I don't necessarily like it, but I think I must concede that you have a point about the differences. I did some research (internet research, but seems legit to me). It seems you are talking about Bubalus arnee, whereas we have and hunt Bubalus bubalis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Buffalo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_water_buffalo

As far as which is the more cantankerous, I'm not sure how to measure that objectively, except that I do have a gut feeling that domestication over thousands of years can influence temperament toward docility. However, it was funny as hell (and serious) seeing my mate do a sprint worthy of an Olympic athlete to try to get away from one wounded Bubalus bubalis - I managed to save the day with a .308 (oh, dear!).

Todd, you'll have a great time! The appeal of hunting buffalo is why I live where I live! I love it.

Naki is talking out of his arse as usual. He fails to understand that Bubalus bubalis were found elsewhere in the wild in south east Asia, before being domesticated and bought to Australia and other countries. Thankfully Australian got the big ones with the big horns, unlike some other places who got some of the other varieties, for very good reasons.

quote:

which is a lot bigger and lot nastier.

Yes, well, tell that to some of the old cranky buggers that like taking a swipe at people, unprovoked.

Totally born and raised in the wild and
over a ton in weight.

But since you seem to think they are
not wild and dangerous, by all means
stand in front of them and give them
a pat on the nose !

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
However, it was funny as hell (and serious) seeing my mate do a sprint worthy of an Olympic athlete to try to get away from one wounded Bubalus bubalis - I managed to save the day with a .308 (oh, dear!)

Was that a push feed or a controlled feed??

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Naki is talking out of his arse as usual.

As for what I tell my clients Naki - you have no clue whatsoever. Let me be blunt with you, you have almost zero hunting experience, you have almost zero knowledge of the game animals of Australia. How the hell is it any of your business what i tell my clients and why am I somehow answerable to you?

Naki:

Was that a wild, feral or a hutch rabbit your kid got to shoot?

Just sayin

Matt

You know nothing about me or about true Wild Buffalo! BTW how are yor Wild cats doing?


Fujotupu, you are a brave man indeed to now pick on my son!

Nigel, do you have authentic proven record of an Aussie buffalo going 900+ kgs? The wild Buffalo of assam have been recorded at 1200kgs+ and 6 foot 6inches at the shoulder - yes bigger than gaur!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

Fujotupu, you are a brave man indeed to now pick on my son!

Hardly, he was under your guidance and seeing you didn't answer the question, I hope you got him to shoot a wild one.

Here is some genetic research of Domestic water buffalo populations including the Aussie variety -
Genetic diversity of Asian water buffalo (Bubalus bubalis): microsatellite variation and a comparison with protein‐coding loci - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com...sAuthenticated=false

I have the PDF document here as well.

Does anyone have any scientifc data to show that Bubalis bubalis was a true wild animal in Asia less than 500 years ago? FYI the information I have says it was domesticated in India 5000 years ago and in China 4000 years ago.

I still can't understand what the whole fuss is about. What is wrong with admitting that the Aussie buffalo is from domestic population that has gone feral / wild? It is still a great game animal worth hunting and a great trophy.

Why try and make it out as a true wild animal?

I would love to hunt scrub bulls but I will not call them Gaur just because they have some genetic link going back thousands of years!

From the Mirriam-Webster dictionary:

Definition of FERAL

1 : of, relating to, or suggestive of a wild beast <feral teeth> <feral instincts>

2 a : not domesticated or cultivated : wild

b : having escaped from domestication and become wild <feral cats>

Naki, you are seriously splitting hairs about a semantic point that does NOT amount to jack squat! This isn't reflecting well on you sir. Especially in light of Matt's qualifications.

Naki I'm not sure where you are coming from here. There may well be different species or subspecies of buffalo and pig for that matter and in many countries of the world a lot of their game animals have been introduced. Take our country for instance, apart from some native birds, a few now extinct, we had no animals at all until the coming of the European who introduced everything we have now from the rat up to the wapati. Many of these animal introductions such as fallow deer and red deer came from English parks or private holdings and were virtually tame or domesticated stock. All animals originally were 'wild' some have just been used by man for various purposes over time and have become domesticated to varying degrees but soon revert to type once living free again in the wild.

How do you view our red deer that have been born and breed on farms and escape back into the wild. They are no more tame than the yearlings we usually easily shoot in the wild of most of our species. I've hunted most of our game in NZ from the feral almost domestic goat to the real wild game such as chamois and tahr and I been in many situations where any of these game will stand and look at you like a domestic animal and others where they hightail it off at the smallest hint of man in their vicinity.

My experience of the Aussie buffalo is that while the young animals were like most others game species, relatively relaxed at their sight of man, more the most part these buffalo where quite skittery and did not hang around once they sighted or winded you.

From looking at video of the African buffalo herds I don't see any difference in terms of the bravery of the animals. The African buffalo seems to take off away from man just as quick as the Aussie buff. Some of those big old Aussie buffalo can look and act every bit as mean as any other animal and they don't back down either. I certainly would not trust them when wounded or if I got between them and their escape route. Even the younger bulls, like all the bovine species, can be quite toey and treatening.

Naki you may be correct if comparing weights of animal but that is like saying hunting and shooting red deer is not the same thrill as hunting and shooting wapati just because there is a weight difference.

The Aussie bulls are plenty big enough and have plentiful food to keep them in top condition and weight.

So weight wise, size wise, and mean wise I think any hunter would be splitting hairs to try and say the African buffalo is so superior to the Aussie one. Both can be easily shot at 100m while they are going about their business, but get up close to either of them and I don't think anyone will be thinking about anything else other than that they better shoot well or the action could start.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

1)
I still can't understand what the whole fuss is about. What is wrong with admitting that the Aussie buffalo is from domestic population that has gone feral / wild? It is still a great game animal worth hunting and a great trophy.

2)
Why try and make it out as a true wild animal?

3)
I would love to hunt scrub bulls but I will not call them Gaur just because they have some genetic link going back thousands of years!

What are you on about?
Point 1;
No one ever said they were not from Domesticated Buffalo. "Just because they came from Buffalo years ago that were domesticated doesn't mean they have not became wild again, And those Ferrel/wild pigs of the northern parts are most certainly dangerous "wild animals..
Point 2;
"true wild animals now? not just part wild???

Point 3:
No one ever said a scrub bull was a Gaur. Maybe a wild Oxen but not a Gaur.

Ive seen plenty of Cape Buffalo in reserves such as Mana Pools, Ngorogoro, Amboseli est that "look" down right tame and docile.

Please READ my posts.

I have repeatedly said that the animals are worthy game and worthy of hunting and worthy trophies. That is what hunting is about.

If you look at the OP you will see no mention of the true WILD buffalo (Bubalis arnee??). This is where the debate started and then it became a pissing match when I pointed out the differnces.

I have said that the Aussie buffalo can be dangerous and charge and probably have killed people. But please do not tell me that they are as dangerous as the Assam Wild buffalo.

People who have hunted the Assam Wild buffalo 60 to 100 years ago and been to Africa have some credibility too. You may find some old reading references. I cannot find one off hand but I have read about those experiences.

On second thoughts - EP Gee was a British tea planter, hunter and conservationist from Assam who also wrote about this.

Well, we have seen how someone was trying to spear a buffalo in Australia.

To settle this argument, I would like that individual to go to Africa, find a lone cape buffalo with broken horns, and try the same trick

I would like to see the video afterwards

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Please READ my posts.

I have repeatedly said that the animals are worthy game and worthy of hunting and worthy trophies. That is what hunting is about.

If you look at the OP you will see no mention of the true WILD buffalo (Bubalis arnee??). This is where the debate started and then it became a pissing match when I pointed out the differnces.

I have said that the Aussie buffalo can be dangerous and charge and probably have killed people. But please do not tell me that they are as dangerous as the Assam Wild buffalo.

People who have hunted the Assam Wild buffalo 60 to 100 years ago and been to Africa have some credibility too. You may find some old reading references. I cannot find one off hand but I have read about those experiences.

On second thoughts - EP Gee was a British tea planter, hunter and conservationist from Assam who also wrote about this.

Naki the OP was asking about the ratings between the cape, water and bison and i think most of us took water buffalo to mean the Aussie variety which can still be freely hunted as can the other two animals the OP asked about.

You know that hunting in India is all but finished or so difficult and restricted that nobody would bother today, therefore there was no intention and no reason to get into a debate about the different species of water buffalo and which was most 'wild' as it is irrelevant to the hunter today. We can only hunt African cape, Oz water buffalo and Nth American bison and I'm sure that that was all the OP was asking to be compared

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

People who have hunted the Assam Wild buffalo 60 to 100 years ago and been to Africa have some credibility too. You may find some old reading references. I cannot find one off hand but I have read about those experiences.

No one really cares about hunting the Assam Buffalo on this post other than your self.
Its a bit like asking if the African Elephant is more dangerous than the Asian Elephant then saying they are all tame compared to the Mammoth.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Nigel, do you have authentic proven record of an Aussie buffalo going 900+ kgs? The wild Buffalo of assam have been recorded at 1200kgs+ and 6 foot 6inches at the shoulder - yes bigger than gaur!

What, did I weigh it ?

No

Did we get a shit load of meat off it
compared to other animals
- yes, significantly.

Why do they get that big - very very good feed
like non stop flood plains, undisturbed, genes.

I'll do some research and ask someone who
has probably shot 10,000+ over 40 years
compared to my piss ant 150 or so (although
I've helped cut up more than that).

I am sure Matt has seen big bulls in their prime that have lived the good life undisturbed on flood plains that would push a ton.

I.can't argue with someone whose knowledge comes from Google searches.

Who the hell mentioned feral cats anyhow? Not me?

Funny how when Naki enters the discussion, the sale of vodoo dolls skyrockets.

For all you downunderers. How many people are killed or injured hunting your buffs in a year. It doesn't seem like we hear of many if any here in the states.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The big difference between a buffalo & a bison is you can't wash your hands in a buffalo!

I like it Steve...

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
For all you downunderers. How many people are killed or injured hunting your buffs in a year. It doesn't seem like we hear of many if any here in the states.
465H&H

You don't even need to be hunting them !

Matt would be the best one to answer this.

I do remember one person killed a few years ago walking back from a pub, Buffalo came out of the
bushes and killed him !

Ok, I agree, the Aussie buffalo is the most dangerous critter in the whole world. It is a true wild buffalo. It can kill entire villages and charge a tank.

If you upset it, it will swim across the Indian ocean all the way to Assam and kick the butts of all the Assam wild buffalo. It will charge a herd of elephants and smash all the bengal tigers in Assam.

Why? Becuse it is Aussie.

Satisfied?

Oh - Ferral cat versus Wild cat? Some one equated the feral buffalo with the wild bufallo? Remember?

So - I agree that the Aussie feral cat is the most dangerous cat in the world and will kill and skin a wild cat in 10 seconds. It can jump 25 feet in the air to kill a duck - more than a caracal can do! They come in many colours - so you can have a choice of trophy - genetically selected.

Trophy fee?

Now let us talk cricket!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Now let us talk cricket!

Why bother, your last good player was 20+ years ago

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Ok, I agree, the Aussie buffalo is the most dangerous critter in the whole world. It is a true wild buffalo. It can kill entire villages and charge a tank.

If you upset it, it will swim across the Indian ocean all the way to Assam and kick the butts of all the Assam wild buffalo. It will charge a herd of elephants and smash all the bengal tigers in Assam.

Why? Becuse it is Aussie.

Satisfied?

Oh - Ferral cat versus Wild cat? Some one equated the feral buffalo with the wild bufallo? Remember?

So - I agree that the Aussie feral cat is the most dangerous cat in the world and will kill and skin a wild cat in 10 seconds. It can jump 25 feet in the air to kill a duck - more than a caracal can do! They come in many colours - so you can have a choice of trophy - genetically selected.

Trophy fee?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Naki is talking out of his arse as usual.



Now let us talk cricket!

Naki,

Hopefully the pharmacy will open early tomorrow morning and you can get your mess refilled quickly. This wild / feral thing was much ado about nothing other than to trump up a debate. But yea, it's been really slow around here as well.

Not many people get killed or injured by them. In the ten years I've lived here, a bushwalker was injured, a man was killed walking his dog to check his bore, and a RAAF serviceman was injured (and hospitalised) when he couldn't stop a charge from the bull he'd wounded with his .338WM. In the early days, the hide hunters lost a few men killed that I've read about. And somewhere else I read about an Aborigine kid getting killed (many decades ago) when he went for a swim at a waterhole. So, really, not many people get killed or hurt. But - boy! - we hear of some close calls!

Some good info on the water buffalo I did not know. It does seem like the aussie water buff has one of the most impressive horns of their species. A lot of weird of topic posts. Anyway I would love to have all three on my wall one day. One bison down, water buffalo next and hopefully in the future a cape buffalo.

Steel, that would look great and be a few awesome adventures! Good luck, man!