http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12...ca-craig-packer.html

Does not paint the trophy lion hunting industry in a good light. I can see Bubye (and the Save too with its problems) as the poster child for great lion hunting and conservation. But this article has some pretty damning stuff on Tanzania.

From the article - "The real problem was the trophy-hunting industry, which Dr. Packer said claimed to help conserve lion populations while actually hurting them. The big lie of the hunting industry is, ‘Don’t worry kids, we’re doing it,’” he said. “And they’re not.”

Mike

As typical for the NYT, a sensational, left wing headline is backed by no facts or numbers in the article. The National Geographic bought into it as well.

However, The Guardian (also left) had a much more balanced reporting of Packer's views. Here, Packer acknowledges: "The root causes for the cataclysmic decline of wildlife in Africa, he says, are funding and population pressure." He also is not opposed to hunting per se: "Trophy hunting is not inherently damaging to lion populations, provided the hunters take care to let the males mature and wait to harvest them after their cubs are safely reared," and he is strongly opposed to hunting which violates those principles.

"Tanzania still has more lions than any other African nation. It also has more land set aside for sport hunting."
This alone should tell the bastards something.
Cal

It seems to me that this guy has some seriously us credibility issues. He is as corrupt as the Africans if the published allegations are true.

Yet there are a number of people who swear blindly that he is not ant-hunting.

His buddy Chardonnet is currently doing similar "scientific research" on Lions in Mozambique; we'll see how that one pans out.

I find it very interesting that both CITES and the European Union still approve of trophy hunting in Tanzania. As you may know, I posted an interview with Dr. Dennis Ikanda on this forum, that was attached by Craig Packer. Dr. Ikanda than wrote a rebuttal to Packer's attack. Packer has a clear bias against Tanzania. His bias against Tanzania is the basis for USFWS final rule.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
"Tanzania still has more lions than any other African nation. It also has more land set aside for sport hunting."
This alone should tell the bastards something.
Cal

But then you look at how terrible a job it did protecting it elephants.

More I learn about hunting in Africa the more it becomes clear all we are doing is paying a massive tax via trophy fees and huntings rates to corrupt politicians and very little actually flows down to conservation.

Mike

Its the outfitters that fund the anti-poaching patrols. When it comes to corruption we have our own nest to clean up at USFWS. Is USFWS acting in the best interest of wildlife in terms of conservation based on sound science OR are decisions more politically motivated. Consider the IRS (Lois Lerner, et al), malfeasance at the VA, high handed EPA regulators...the list is long.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Yet there are a number of people who swear blindly that he is not ant-hunting.

His buddy Chardonnet is currently doing similar "scientific research" on Lions in Mozambique; we'll see how that one pans out.

Fujo,
My house is full of trophies. I went ele hunting this year with Nigel. And am going to book another ele hunt next week at DSC. I am hunting deer now at my Dads ranch. I began hunting at age 6. I ran a fur trap-line all through high school to supplement my hunting money. My whole life outside of work is about hunting, and I am a rabid political conservative.

As a medical professional and a corporate CEO...I do nothing blindly.

I count Craig Packer as a friend. I know him pretty well and talk with him regularly.

He is NOT anti-hunting.

Larry,
Craig Packer is also not corrupt. In fact when it would have been easy for him to be corrupt...he always took the high road to the best of my knowledge. But...he is a pure scientist always stands up for the facts...even if it is tough.

The sad thing about this whole lion thing is that Craig actually is quite reasonable and actually wants hunting to be successful as "he knows" it is the only means to maintain truly wild Africa.

Larry you should let me introduce you to him sometime. I bet you to would like the guy. I know Mike would.

But let me refrain...I never say anything blindly...I am a hunter...and Craig Packer is not an anti-hunter...he is a research scientist and one with guts enough to point out the facts.

Lane:

What about the allegations related to the job for his wife?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Yet there are a number of people who swear blindly that he is not ant-hunting.

His buddy Chardonnet is currently doing similar "scientific research" on Lions in Mozambique; we'll see how that one pans out.

Fujo,
My house is full of trophies. I went ele hunting this year with Nigel. And am going to book another ele hunt next week at DSC. I am hunting deer now at my Dads ranch. I began hunting at age 6. I ran a fur trap-line all through high school to supplement my hunting money. My whole life outside of work is about hunting, and I am a rabid political conservative.

As a medical professional and a corporate CEO...I do nothing blindly.

I count Craig Packer as a friend. I know him pretty well and talk with him regularly.

He is NOT anti-hunting.

Larry,
Craig Packer is also not corrupt. In fact when it would have been easy for him to be corrupt...he always took the high road to the best of my knowledge. But...he is a pure scientist always stands up for the facts...even if it is tough.

The sad thing about this whole lion thing is that Craig actually is quite reasonable and actually wants hunting to be successful as "he knows" it is the only means to maintain truly wild Africa.

Larry you should let me introduce you to him sometime. I bet you to would like the guy. I know Mike would.

But let me refrain...I never say anything blindly...I am a hunter...and Craig Packer is not an anti-hunter...he is a research scientist and one with guts enough to point out the facts.

I would add this as it pertains to Packer, although I do not know him as well as Lane does. I too do not see him as anti-hunting per say, and that comes from personal talks/emails with him. For example, he was the first to suggest doing away with any/all quotas as long as 6 yr old lions are shot, shoot all of them you wish! He said, sell as many lion hunts as you want - just stick to killing 6 yr old plus lions and it will be forever sustainable!!!! His words, not mine!!!

I do however think he's easily offended (ie, butt hurt) and as a result of getting his feelings hurt over the whole Tanzania issue - he didn't do what was right by the lion, rather he did what was right by his ego/feelings. IMO of course.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Lane:

What about the allegations related to the job for his wife?

If you want my public answer...it is: There are 2 sides to every story.

If you want the non-public answer...you will have to call me or catch me at DSC or SCI...as I will not even type it into a private e-mail for chance of it getting forwarded with my name on it to certain attorneys. This whole lion thing goes VERY deep.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Yet there are a number of people who swear blindly that he is not ant-hunting.

His buddy Chardonnet is currently doing similar "scientific research" on Lions in Mozambique; we'll see how that one pans out.

Fujo,
My house is full of trophies. I went ele hunting this year with Nigel. And am going to book another ele hunt next week at DSC. I am hunting deer now at my Dads ranch. I began hunting at age 6. I ran a fur trap-line all through high school to supplement my hunting money. My whole life outside of work is about hunting, and I am a rabid political conservative.

As a medical professional and a corporate CEO...I do nothing blindly.

I count Craig Packer as a friend. I know him pretty well and talk with him regularly.

He is NOT anti-hunting.

Larry,
Craig Packer is also not corrupt. In fact when it would have been easy for him to be corrupt...he always took the high road to the best of my knowledge. But...he is a pure scientist always stands up for the facts...even if it is tough.

The sad thing about this whole lion thing is that Craig actually is quite reasonable and actually wants hunting to be successful as "he knows" it is the only means to maintain truly wild Africa.

Larry you should let me introduce you to him sometime. I bet you to would like the guy. I know Mike would.

But let me refrain...I never say anything blindly...I am a hunter...and Craig Packer is not an anti-hunter...he is a research scientist and one with guts enough to point out the facts.

I would add this as it pertains to Packer, although I do not know him as well as Lane does. I too do not see him as anti-hunting per say, and that comes from personal talks/emails with him. For example, he was the first to suggest doing away with any/all quotas as long as 6 yr old lions are shot, shoot all of them you wish! He said, sell as many lion hunts as you want - just stick to killing 6 yr old plus lions and it will be forever sustainable!!!! His words, not mine!!!

I do however think he's easily offended (ie, butt hurt) and as a result of getting his feelings hurt over the whole Tanzania issue - he didn't do what was right by the lion, rather he did what was right by his ego/feelings. IMO of course.

Aaron,
I think there is a lot of truth to what you say.

Craig is human as is everyone else.

Knowing you as I do...I can also say...you are not going to take very many (if any ) punches from someone before you punch back. Craig took a lot of punches...many of which were below the belt.

Dr. Butler on the other thread said there was fault on all sides...I agree totally.

This is not the first time the media with an agenda distorted reality to fit their narrative. The article was full of emotion and not fact - typical.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
This is not the first time the media with an agenda distorted reality to fit their narrative. The article was full of emotion and not fact - typical.

O1,
You are correct. Anyone that takes a NY Times article with out a grain of salt is also foolish!

Innuendo .. shameful.

Tanzania has had the 6 year rule since 2012. All lion trophy for export are aged via their teerh. Tanzania has a scientifically sound lion management program. There are some 200 plus scientist of which 70 percent are foreign. nationals. CITES and the EU have accepted Tanzania's research and management. Why has USFWS not even bother to sit down. with Tanzania wildlife officials and analyze their data?

One other thing. The NY times, liberal rag that it is, does have a highest and best use. Next to the sear on a two holer.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vining:
Tanzania has had the 6 year rule since 2012. All lion trophy for export are aged via their teerh. Tanzania has a scientifically sound lion management program. There are some 200 plus scientist of which 70 percent are foreign. nationals. CITES and the EU have accepted Tanzania's research and management. Why has USFWS not even bother to sit down. with Tanzania wildlife officials and analyze their data?

Tim the issue with our "scientifically sound management program" is that no one is allowed to see it as it is the best kept secret of the Ministry!

I believe USFWS asked for the annual aging results without success?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vining:
Tanzania has had the 6 year rule since 2012. All lion trophy for export are aged via their teerh. Tanzania has a scientifically sound lion management program. There are some 200 plus scientist of which 70 percent are foreign. nationals. CITES and the EU have accepted Tanzania's research and management. Why has USFWS not even bother to sit down. with Tanzania wildlife officials and analyze their data?

Tim the issue with our "scientifically sound management program" is that no one is allowed to see it as it is the best kept secret of the Ministry!

I believe USFWS asked for the annual aging results without success?

I know that to be 100% fact.

Interesting review of his book in the latest issue of African Indaba John Jackson of Conservation Force who does not seem to be a fan.

http://africanindaba.com/wp-co...canIndabaVol13-6.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vining:
Tanzania has had the 6 year rule since 2012. All lion trophy for export are aged via their teerh. Tanzania has a scientifically sound lion management program. There are some 200 plus scientist of which 70 percent are foreign. nationals. CITES and the EU have accepted Tanzania's research and management. Why has USFWS not even bother to sit down. with Tanzania wildlife officials and analyze their data?

Tim the issue with our "scientifically sound management program" is that no one is allowed to see it as it is the best kept secret of the Ministry!

I believe USFWS asked for the annual aging results without success?

I have heard that Tanzania has not allowed a number of lions to be shipped. Some going back 3+ years.

If so would these possibly be lions that don't meet the 6 year rule?

I don't know how much credence I give to the people that have told me this.

RE transparency of Tanzania Wildlife Issue. All that I know is via Dr.Ikanda. According to him information is available. If it wasn't in the past, evidently it is available now. As Dr. Ikanda has told me several times now, USFWS is welcome to come and sit down face to face and examine the information.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vining:
RE transparency of Tanzania Wildlife Issue. All that I know is via Dr.Ikanda. According to him information is available. If it wasn't in the past, evidently it is available now. As Dr. Ikanda has told me several times now, USFWS is welcome to come and sit down face to face and examine the information.

Tim,
If you are going to promote something...maybe you should independently investigate it ahead of time.

Lane,
Evidently, you are in possession if information I am not. So please provide your information with specificity. All I have done is talk to Dr. I Kanda and pass on his comments.
It is Dr. Ikanda, who states that today information is available to USFWS if they wish to come to Tanzania and investigate. If you have facts in evidence that states otherwise, let's have them and see what we can reconcile. I would think the goal is to have Tanzania's management program accepted by USFWS so hunters can obtain the now necessary permit.

The USF&WS wants the TZ lion harvest aging data made transparent for independent analysis. It is not pretty simple.

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vining:
Tanzania has had the 6 year rule since 2012. All lion trophy for export are aged via their teerh. Tanzania has a scientifically sound lion management program. There are some 200 plus scientist of which 70 percent are foreign. nationals. CITES and the EU have accepted Tanzania's research and management. Why has USFWS not even bother to sit down. with Tanzania wildlife officials and analyze their data?

Tim the issue with our "scientifically sound management program" is that no one is allowed to see it as it is the best kept secret of the Ministry!

I believe USFWS asked for the annual aging results without success?

I have heard that Tanzania has not allowed a number of lions to be shipped. Some going back 3+ years.

If so would these possibly be lions that don't meet the 6 year rule?

I don't know how much credence I give to the people that have told me this.

The law allows the export of under aged lion trophies of at least 4 year old males and above provided the requisite fine is paid. So more likely the trophies you refer to are unexported for non payment of relevant fees or they were under 4 years old! However there are first hand accounts by phs who have boasted about having shot under aged lion and 'paid' for the result to be cooked so that they can avoid being penalized - 3 strikes and PH loses his license! I've yet to hear of a PH striking out though....

Bwanamitch, don't you think the fact that they are shooting less than a quarter of what they used to shows that it is working?

Unsupported innuendo helps no one. You are in the business. If someone is doing this, it is encumbent on you to report them to the Tanz authorities. Let them investigate it. The kangaroo court on AR isn't going to do anything, especially without names.

I agree that transparency is good. I also expect that they will be more transparent as time goes on. There are growing pains with any system. I suspect things are not perfect, but no one can deny they are not substantially better than before. I say if Dr. Ikanda asks that USFWS look at the data, they should send a team out to look at it before promulgating more rules.

Heck, I am willing to let any research scientist look at my lion if they want.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Vining:
Tanzania has had the 6 year rule since 2012. All lion trophy for export are aged via their teerh. Tanzania has a scientifically sound lion management program. There are some 200 plus scientist of which 70 percent are foreign. nationals. CITES and the EU have accepted Tanzania's research and management. Why has USFWS not even bother to sit down. with Tanzania wildlife officials and analyze their data?

Tim the issue with our "scientifically sound management program" is that no one is allowed to see it as it is the best kept secret of the Ministry!

I believe USFWS asked for the annual aging results without success?

I have heard that Tanzania has not allowed a number of lions to be shipped. Some going back 3+ years.

If so would these possibly be lions that don't meet the 6 year rule?

I don't know how much credence I give to the people that have told me this.

The law allows the export of under aged lion trophies of at least 4 year old males and above provided the requisite fine is paid. So more likely the trophies you refer to are unexported for non payment of relevant fees or they were under 4 years old! However there are first hand accounts by phs who have boasted about having shot under aged lion and 'paid' for the result to be cooked so that they can avoid being penalized - 3 strikes and PH loses his license! I've yet to hear of a PH striking out though....

Thanks for the clarification.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Bwanamitch, don't you think the fact that they are shooting less than a quarter of what they used to shows that it is working?

Unsupported innuendo helps no one. You are in the business. If someone is doing this, it is encumbent on you to report them to the Tanz authorities. Let them investigate it. The kangaroo court on AR isn't going to do anything, especially without names.

I agree that transparency is good. I also expect that they will be more transparent as time goes on. There are growing pains with any system. I suspect things are not perfect, but no one can deny they are not substantially better than before. I say if Dr. Ikanda asks that USFWS look at the data, they should send a team out to look at it before promulgating more rules.

Heck, I am willing to let any research scientist look at my lion if they want.

That was an option at one time prior. TZ did not like "the team" USF&WS wanted to go.

So why isn't it an option now?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So why isn't it an option now?

To the best of my knowledge it still is...but I don't think "the team" has changed and I don't think TZ changed its mind about "the team."

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Bwanamitch, don't you think the fact that they are shooting less than a quarter of what they used to shows that it is working?

Unsupported innuendo helps no one. You are in the business. If someone is doing this, it is encumbent on you to report them to the Tanz authorities. Let them investigate it. The kangaroo court on AR isn't going to do anything, especially without names.

I agree that transparency is good. I also expect that they will be more transparent as time goes on. There are growing pains with any system. I suspect things are not perfect, but no one can deny they are not substantially better than before. I say if Dr. Ikanda asks that USFWS look at the data, they should send a team out to look at it before promulgating more rules.

Heck, I am willing to let any research scientist look at my lion if they want.

crbutler,
I do think it is a great start that far fewer lion and particularly young lion are being hunted as a result of the age based regulation. The system appears to be "working" in that far fewer lion, 4 and under, are being shot. BUT still the vast majority of the lion shot are under 6 - I suspect this being a function of time it takes to reduce the "margin of error" during field aging. The issue here is that all these accounts of how many lions are being shot since the age rule came into effect, the age make up of these, etc has been released into the public unnoficially - by people like JJ who obviously has his sources who leak him the info. Without the actual data being made public, the USFWS or any other Governing body, researcher/scientist has nothing to go on! So when Conservation Force states that hunted lion in Tz dropped from 200+ to 50 since the age regulatin, what is the official basis of that info that USFWS can rely on? It hasn't been made available to them, right?

Being in the business I am concerned about keeping a level playing field so when I hear someone I trust tell me that a Ph friend of his bragged to them that they "took care" of the aging process on a lion they hunted to avoid being penalized, it makes me mad. More so when other PHs I work with have taken responsibility for any 'mistake' made in harvesting a under 6 lion. Sadly though, the person I trust was not willing to reveal his friends' name nor the details on who is involved so I have no facts to report to the authorities. Sad but true!

The issue of transparency is a major one that has landed us to where we are today vis a vis the USFWS decision. There is a reason why USFWS are so concerned about transparency, possibly because they have seen evidence that the aging system is biased or flawed?? If indeed Dr. Ikanda has stated that the USFW are welcome to come and see the data, they should send their personnel tomorrow!

While I cannot say exactly how many have been killed in Tanzania, USFWS has a very good idea how many are being imported into the US.

I thought I saw someone quoting USFWS on here that said something about around 200 lion were imported and the vast majority were from South Africa.

If the US market is the major market for lion hunting, to me that supports JJ's numbers.

In any case, if there are a number of good scientists, USFWS should send some of them. If Dr. Packer is unacceptable to Tanzania, there are a bunch of others with good credentials... Many who Lane quotes. Get some of them. If they get refused also, then maybe there is a conspiracy out there and the USFWS actions have some validity.

Come on, guys (meaning the US Government and Tanzania) both sides need to work for the better of wildlife!

And statistically, lion populations are safer on hunting land.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
"Tanzania still has more lions than any other African nation. It also has more land set aside for sport hunting."
This alone should tell the bastards something.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So why isn't it an option now?

To the best of my knowledge it still is...but I don't think "the team" has changed and I don't think TZ changed its mind about "the team."

Who is this illustrious team, worthy of quotation marks?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So why isn't it an option now?

To the best of my knowledge it still is...but I don't think "the team" has changed and I don't think TZ changed its mind about "the team."

Who is this illustrious team, worthy of quotation marks?

To the best of my knowledge...there have been several people put forward.

In Botswana - Dr Packer was one of the so called scientists who were involved in the Lion age setting quota system .

He led us all to believe he was pro this 6 year criteria.

While we were walking around confident our lion population and hunting management was safe - we had the carpet pulled from under us.

I personaly do not think Packer is pro hunting given our experience in Botswana and firmly believe he like so many other researchers of today play to the tune required by the paying sponsor.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So why isn't it an option now?

To the best of my knowledge it still is...but I don't think "the team" has changed and I don't think TZ changed its mind about "the team."

Who is this illustrious team, worthy of quotation marks?

To the best of my knowledge...there have been several people put forward.

So The Team is a figment of your imagination?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So why isn't it an option now?

To the best of my knowledge it still is...but I don't think "the team" has changed and I don't think TZ changed its mind about "the team."

Who is this illustrious team, worthy of quotation marks?

To the best of my knowledge...there have been several people put forward.

So The Team is a figment of your imagination?

No...not a figment Matt. I know the names put forth...just unwilling to publish them here.

But since you are being such an antagonistic @$$-hole here...why don't you share what you yourself are accomplishing on making sure hunted lion trophies remain importable to the USA...or for that matter what head way you have made in Australia.

Or do you prefer to just sit and bitch and moan?