Ok I need some suggestions.
Lets say I want a new rifle for myself I have a 375H&H musgrvae K98 and an old 303 Enfield currently (303 needs new barrel). I get by with the 375 on anything from springbuck to big plainsgame no chance on big five yet and doubt if I will ever hunt big five in big numbers.

But being as PH and maybe have the need to borrow a rifle to a client it would need to be comfortable to shoot and should not make anyone recoil shy. Then the other thing is that you must remember that I stay in RSA so wildcats and odd calibres are difficult to get ammo for.

Any suggestions the obvious one would be 30-06 but I really liked the 35 Whelen that CChunter brought on two occasions. Maybe 338 but wont that be too much recoil ?

Any suggestions.

The 30-06 would be a good choice as wood be a 9,3x62.
It would depend on the size of the majority of game and distances you normally shoot.

If you're a reloader the 338-06 is very hard to beat....if not the 30-06 is still as good as ever.

OK lets say the 30-06 now what barrel twist and who makes a barrel twist that will handle short and long bullets so I can load the 30-06 from 150gr to 220gr and get good accuracy ?

The lighter bullets being barnes 150gr for long distance and the 220gr something like rhino or woodleigh.

One in 10 will work.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
If you're a reloader the 338-06 is very hard to beat....if not the 30-06 is still as good as ever.

Agree with Vapodog...........338-06.

.30-06

30-06 or 9.3x62...if you have a lot of lady clients and kids then maybe a 7x57?

30-06, and put a muzzlebrake on it if you think the recoil will be a bit sharp for women or teenagers that might use it. A friend of mine in the UK is a gunsmith, and after he "tweaked" his 30-06 a bit, you can hardly feel any recoil, AND it has got a synthetic stock.....The muzzlebreak just makes a hell of a lot of noise, so I personaly do not like.

If only for clients and yourself every now and again, do not spend to much money on it, most of the stuff we get in SA "of the shelf" shoots to a T, as you know. You get VERY good second hand rifles at good prices as well with the new "fire arms act" as there are a lot of people that do not want to bother with re-licensing a weapon they use only once every year...

Optics are very important, I think, so rather "invest" in a good scope.

The rifles we use for this purpose is a .308 Win Bruno with a 3-9x40 Leupold and a 30-06 Spring Musgrave with 8x40 Smichdt on top. Ammunition is easy to get for these two, anywhere in SA.

This is my 2cents worth....

Enjoy, always "lekker" to shop for a new rifle.

270 Winchester.

It will kill any plains game, and most people shoot it well.

2nd the 9.3 x 62. It will do anything the .35 Whelen or the .338-06 will do plus it is a relatively common caliber in Africa, easily obtainable. I'm not knocking our beloved and very capable .30-06 (I own one) but the 9.3 will handily take any game up to and including Eland. A fellow who writes under the pseudonym of "Doktari" in the Accurate Rifle magazine said that he thought the factories should download the .375 H&H for better pentration on buffalo or let people use the 9.3 on them. I just read a posting where a hunter used one with Woodleigh FMJ's to kill an elephant. If the 7x57 was good enough for Bell, certainly the 9.3 would be a better choice.

He already has a .375, so a 9.3 is "duplicating".
In RSA, there are only 3 contenders- .30-06, 7x64, .270, all 3 will work well, but the biggest one (.30-06) will be the best as you might occationally include eland in species list. The majority of plainsgame is smaller than eland, so the .338 is also somewhat pointles, in whatever configuration, due to heavier recoil. My 2 loaner rifles BTW, is a 9.3x64 and a 7x64.

Safari-Hunt wrote:

quote:

I get by with the 375 on anything from springbuck to big plainsgame no chance on big five yet and doubt if I will ever hunt big five in big numbers.

I would suggest the 7mm Rem Mag with a 1:9.5" twist (or if possible 1:9") and make sure you use GSCHV 120gr bullets for the real long shots on Springbuck, etc. and 130gr on all other plains game from bushveld conditions to open plains up to 400 meters.
Very mild recoil with GSCHV specifically, excellent accuracy and definite ability to kill all SA plains game - given within reach and accurate shot placement.

Ammo freely available anywhere in SA.

I'd get a nice synthetic stocked 9.3X62, in a Mauser or Clone, with a QD mounted scope, and good iron sights, and about
2-7x40mm for the scope.

quote:

I would suggest the 7mm Rem Mag with a 1:9.5" twist (or if possible 1:9") and make sure you use GSCHV 120gr bullets for the real long shots on Springbuck, etc. and 130gr on all other plains game from bushveld conditions to open plains up to 400 meters.
Very mild recoil with GSCHV specifically, excellent accuracy and definite ability to kill all SA plains game - given within reach and accurate shot placement.

Absulotely what I would NOT reccomend. GS Custom's solids (FN's) are execptional bullets, but their HV bullets are a sales gimmick, and waste meat like you would not believe. No need in pointing me to the photos on their website, I have seen it all, and do not agree.

The .308 would be my choice and I'd load it with Barnes bullets...good shot placement would make it work for anything.

Probably the "best" 3-rifle battery you can have is a .223, a .308 and a .375 H&H .... each has a niche and each is probably almost world-side for ammo.

Karl S wrote:

quote:

GS Custom's solids (FN's) are execptional bullets, but their HV bullets are a sales gimmick, and waste meat like you would not believe. No need in pointing me to the photos on their website, I have seen it all, and do not agree.

Karl S, with all due respect, you're making a total fool of yourself!

Read the following article.

Probably had yourself twisted in using the wrong length bullet in the rifle with the non-recommended twist barrel!

Many hunters can tell you of their success with GSCHV's and proof it as well with hundreds of absolute success stories in their biltong hunts.

quote:

Karl S, with all due respect, you're making a total fool of yourself!

Thats your opinion. Lets not highjack this treat as well with another trwist rate/ velocity/ etc. In my experience, that (article) is not always true, regarding meat damage. My experience with these bullets are limited, but not limited enough to go along with what has been said. (Hartebeest, young bull- 7x64- 130gr bullet- hit on shoulder, no bone hit- 220 yards- entrance shoulder a write off, small exit just behind off shoulder.)

I wonder why this writer has not been publised in a credible magazine, and at the same time refer you to a published article that I wrote fo the Magnum magazine, called Bullet Savvy. Like the writer of "your" article, my main concern was penetartion, and whichever way you look at it, these lightweight bullets cannot compare. Yes, sure, a "medium kudu" (not even 3 years old BTW) and a cow wildebeest were amongst the "big game" killed, and "penetration was complete". What if that shots were to be taken at a more oblong angle, or at a real size kudu bull, standing not really ideal? Do you still believe these bullets are the ticket? If so, I wonder who is the fool...? But seeing that I am not marketing any bullets, and you are, lets just drop the topic.

I would definitely go with a .30 caliber of some sort. I would recommend the .300 WSM but if ammo for it isn't readily available in your area, I would go with a .30-06 or a .308, .30 calibers with 180-200 gr. bullets just seem to make much nicer exit wounds with a little more blood than .270's and 7mm's.

I also like the 9.3 X 62, but if that is thought to be duplicative of the 375, what about the poor old 300 Winchester Magnum? These days it seems like it is becoming the Rodney Dangerfield of cartridges - no respect.

Yet it loves a steady diet of 190 grain bullets, and shoots anyting from 140 to 220 grain bullets very well.

Flatter shooting and more effective range than an '06 or 308. Ammo is relatively cheap and is takes a wide range of powder and bullets if you reload. And it is one hellaciously accurate round. With the proper weight for the rifle, recoil should not be an issue.

I think the thing most are missing was this will probably see more service as a "loaner rifle" than anything else......I suspect most (but not all) clients who would need a loaner rifle would not be gun nuts and perhaps not very experience which is all the more reason to keep recoil down to a reasonable level which can readily be done with the .308...either by handloading or using premium bullets in lighter weights.

I am with Saeed - .270 or .300 win mag

Go with something simple and is proven shooter.

I would have no problem suggesting either the 270 or 30.06. In my expereince, even novices tend to shoot them reasonably well, and there is little difference in weight of gun, recoil, etc. As the 06 handles heavier bullets well, and is a universal standard, I would have to give it the nod. If you can't find 06 ammo, you better start looking for a sharp knife!

I don't disagree with those recommending the 308 either. I actually love the 308 for its efficiency and compact esign. In most cases it compares reasonably well to the 30.06, unless bullets get real heavy. But for all around use, particularly as a loaner, it is hard to beat the 30.06.
Not a glamorous response, but it is the standard against which all others have been compared in this general use category for a century. It will do what you need it to do.

Bill

If you are practical and pragmatic - .30-06 or .308.
I love metrics, so I reckon a 7x64 would be great.

If you really want to invest...go to formalito and get a Sauer 202 with a .30-06 barrel and later you can add a 9.3, .25-06 etc...I can't afford one..but hey..I'm shopping for you!

If you want a bigger bore (You have a.375, so I would stay between .270 and .30) and a mauser..a nice .338 Sabi would great.

Rifle shopping is blerrie lekker! Enjoy!

30-06 plain and simple ---

Karl S-

I PM'ed you, I would like to read that 'bullet savvy' article please.

Get a Blaser R93.

Get barrels in 7x57mm, 270 Win., .30-06, 7mm Rem. Mag., 9.3x62mm and .375 H&H Mag.

You will have covered all the bases (and double covered some), as we baseball players say, and be a much appreciated PH.

Ok I think my mind is made up firstly because of the new gun laws it will just as difficult getting a new rifle than getting a new barrel on my 303. So 303 is going to become pig rifle for close range in fields a nice 10 round magazine filled with 215 gr bullets should do just fine on them. I'm also really considering a silencer/supressor as well on it. And shooting sub sonic to ranges max 60 metres. I think that could make quite a nice bushpig combo.

Ok I think the 30-06 will get the go ahead so I will start shopping around I have the 375 in musgrave K98 and must see if I can find a k98 model in 30-06 as well somewhere second hand. I just love that 98 mauser action. Then since the 303 will be out of action for most type of hunting the 06 will not just be a loaner rifle but I will use it as well quite extensibly.

Now let my search begin I will take my time and also consider it very important that a good rifle without good optics doesn't make sense so I will have to save up quite a bit.

Thanx all for all the post and replies.

BTW the .270 sounds good as well but I don't like hunting anything really with something smaller than the .30 calibers. My personal preference.

Karl S wrote:

quote:

What if that shots were to be taken at a more oblong angle, or at a real size kudu bull, standing not really ideal? Do you still believe these bullets are the ticket?

If you've read that article properly you would have noticed that the young Kudu bull was shot at a totally going away impact angel and yet the GSCHV worked 100%.

For your information, on that same hunting trip a PH with a 9.3 x 62 and a 286gr Dzombo bullet couldn't kill a wounded Bluewildebeest cow with his first shot over a very short distance perfectly broadside - bullet didn't exit and was bent when recovered. This B/w cow was originally shot by a hunter with a 30.06 and a 180gr Winchester Silvertip bullet.

So here clearly the light and fast 130gr GSCHV outperformed at least 2 larger calibers as well as 2 much heavier bullet types on more than on occasion and different hunting situations.

Your next example

quote:

(Hartebeest, young bull- 7x64- 130gr bullet- hit on shoulder, no bone hit- 220 yards- entrance shoulder a write off, small exit just behind off shoulder.)

clearly spells out that either the bullet length or the rifle's twist rate wasn't on spec with what the manufacturer recommended.

quote:

But seeing that I am not marketing any bullets, and you are, lets just drop the topic.

At least I'm putting my money where my mouth is while you are making foolish statements based on one mishap which is in my opinion due to your own fault.

Jagter, if you would really want to continue this personal attack, please do it in the PM section, I am not up for a public debate with someone with that attitude.

Yes, the kudu was shot at a difficult angle, BUT IT WAS A YOUNG KUDU, and the PENETRATION WAS 21CM. (Also, a going away neck shot proves nothing)

Shot placement was the failure on the wildebest cow, not calibers or bullets. The GSC bullet is propably a better bullet than the silver tip bullet anyway, but its far from the best bullet available, unlike what you would like us to believe.

Please go and get some real-life hunting experience, and stop hiding behind twist rates and other BS.

You're the one with the attitude and now that you're driven in a corner you want to hide your fault in a private conversation.

Sorry mate, but that's not how it works if you attack other peoples views in public.

So, you claim the PH executed a badly placed shot on the wounded B/w cow?
To the contrary, it was the perfect shot!
The Dzombo bullet wasn't up to it and yet, the 130gr GSCHV out of a 7mm Rem Mag, also a perfect broadside shot over also a short distance, did the job perfectly.

Get with it and try again!

I was not present, so cannot comment. I will have to take your (dubious) word for what happened. Seems unlikely, maybe the twistrate was wrong?

I do not want to hide, I want to prevent this escalating stupidity. We are highjacking Frederick's post, thats all.Im not a keyboard warrior, and did not ATTACK anyone's view, just gave my own. Do you really think these bullets will penetrate to the same degree as a 220gr Swift Aframe, say in my 8x68? (Speaking of course of a suitably light, high velocity 8mm projectile.) I do not think so. As to my experiencing excessive damage with these bullets, even only once. Maybe I should remind you what I said:

quote:

In my experience, that (article) is not always true, regarding meat damage. My experience with these bullets are limited, but not limited enough to go along with what has been said.

Maybe you can explain to a total novice like myself why the meat was so bloodshot, and also what twist I should have used. Please enlighten me professor Jagter?

quote:

Do you really think these bullets will penetrate to the same degree as a 220gr Swift Aframe, say in my 8x68? (Speaking of course of a suitably light, high velocity 8mm projectile.) I do not think so.

I have absolutely no doubt about that. Fortunately I do have a client with a 8 x 68 and in months to come I'll make a point of it to give you feedback on his hunting results with a GSCHV 160gr. bullet.

I always find it funny that only certain PH's have real hunting experiences - shame, we poor other hunters - have you ever thought how dubious we found some of your so-called real stories? Sit down and think it over a bit.

quote:

Maybe you can explain to a total novice like myself why the meat was so bloodshot, and also what twist I should have used. Please enlighten me professor Jagter?

In stead of referring you to the GSC web site I will rather give it here to you - novice may just not understand it all when having to look for it by himself.
BTW I think Safari-Hunt can learn a lot from this - thread not fully hijacked - rather just a bit of a stupid deviation for now!

Make sure you buy the .285 130gr GSCHV for you 7 x 64 - won't confuse you now with reason why!
Minimum twist required is 1:9" preferably 1:8.2" to be very specific.
Use S335 powder and work your load up to 3150fps.
Don't forget to use a magnum primer!

Go and play with this and report back to your mentor in time

quote:

In stead of referring you to the GSC web site I will rather give it here to you - novice may just not understand it all when having to look for it by himself.
BTW I think Safari-Hunt can learn a lot from this - thread not fully hijacked - rather just a bit of a stupid deviation for now!

Make sure you buy the .285 130gr GSCHV for you 7 x 64 - won't confuse you now with reason why!
Minimum twist required is 1:9" preferably 1:8.2" to be very specific.
Use S335 powder and work your load up to 3150fps.
Don't forget to use a magnum primer!

The barrel had a 1 in 8.5 twist, (not mine, a friend's). Cannot comment on the actual load, as he realoded it. Velocity was about 3200 ft/sec, checked on a Pro-Chrono. Now where did we err?

quote:

I always find it funny that only certain PH's have real hunting experiences - shame, we poor other hunters - have you ever thought how dubious we found some of your so-called real stories? Sit down and think it over a bit.

I never suggested that I have the most experience of all PH's combined. In fact, there is a lot of PH's with as much experience, and even much more than I have. You propably are not one of them. My point was that my observations are based on MY EXPERIENCE, and not on some theoretical mumbo jumbo. Now even I could be wrong, that is why I requested your explanation of how the above load "failed". Please explain to your humble student the error of his ways, and please explain how the twist rate would have any discernable effect on bloodshot meat. And if it is not too much trouble for you, please enlighten me what of my "so-called real stories" you find hard to believe, and maybe Professor, you can learn something also.

And Frederik, sorry for this highjacking. And to the other peolple telling me to let this guy go, sorry also, I know he is not worth it, but maybe we can all learn something from Prof Jagter.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
And Frederik, sorry for this highjacking. And to the other peolple telling me to let this guy go, sorry also, I know he is not worth it, but maybe we can all learn something from Prof Jagter.

To Karl:

Jagter/ Koos, now I understand. YOU are the author of the article you pointed me to!!! Sorry for my "blond" moment! That kudu bull (what we term a 'worsbulletjie" in Namibia), is your kudu experience up to now. In fact, you are so proud of it, you even used it as your avatar! A light has been switched on!

Let me help you a bit, yes I wrote the article only after about my fourth hunt with GSCHV's.
In these biltong hunts I shot the following game:
4 Impala rams, 3 Blesbuck ewes, 1 Bluewildebeest cow, 1 RedHartebeest bull and the 1 young Kudu bull. (The Rhb was shot for somebody else.)
Some of these was with my .308 and 130gr GSCHV's and some with my 7mm Rem Mag and 130gr GSCHV's.
10 head of plains game, all one shot kills with the absolute minimum meat damage. That certainly proves something about GSCHV bullets' ability to kill reliably without bloodshot meat damage.

As you have seen, my son with his .270 and 110gr GSCHV shot Springbuck also with one shot kills and my son in law also Blesbuck with my 7mm Rem Mag, also 130gr GSCHV also a one shot kill.

Before that I think I have shot as many animals, if not more, in my many more hunting years than you have shot as a PH.

Yes, I am proud of that young Kudu bull as it was my first one with a GSCHV. As proud as you are of that young Zebra on your avatar!

Many things can go wrong in any hunt as you should know, but what you've described on the Rhb is very hard to believe.

I would suggest you try again before you make GSCHV out as a sales gimmick which it certainly is not.

Lastly, I also have a PH client who uses only GSCHV's in all his rifles - 220 Swift, 30-06 and 338WM - never had any failures ever with GSCHV!

Seems as if you are the scape goat when it comes to GSCHV's!!!

Looking at all the previous advise all is good choices. I personally will go with the 300 calibers, the reason being a much wider choice of bullets, weight wise which makes it more versatile. The 30-06 have a slightly flatter trajectory than the 308. With a 1:10 twist you will be able to shoot anything from 130gn to 200gn.

I will second a 30-06, in anyway that is the most popular rifle in RSA.

Jagter
As to experience and PH's, why is it that most of the PH's on this board has had bad experiences with you? Looks like you have an isssue with me being a PH. Remember that it is just my chosen career. Lets forget for a moment that I am a PH, and get back to the point. Why do you suggest that the rifle's twist was wrong for that bullet to do the damage like it did? What effect will a slightly off twistrate have on bloodshot meat, assuming that the reloader that is loading it has half a brain, and achieves acceptable hunting accuracy? Can you please explain?

As to my avatar- maybe you should test your eyes, that was a mature stallion of a zebra. The fact that I am not small might have confused you, so I will forgive you. I used the photo because I liked the color, especially the red dune in the background. I could have put up an buffalo or an elephant, but I do not want to intimidate people like youself.