I have been on six hunts to Africa,three for dangerous game & three for plainsgame,on two of these hunts the PH took a shot after I had shot the animal,the first was a zebra already on the ground with my shot,it had burst out of the bushes barely 10 yrds in front of us at a run,I anchored it with my shot but in the excitment the young PH shot it after it was on the ground,the second time was a Cape buff,my shot at 20 yrds or less in the heart had it charging straight at us,he veered towards an opening to our left as he was almost upon us,I got the second shot into him from my DR as he turned & at that moment my PH put a shot into him as well,my first shot was fatal & the buff was down in maybe another 20 yrds & I finished it off as I was the first one on the scene,that was a pretty good adrenaline experience,I am perfectly fine with the PH keeping things safe in the bush,I am curious as to how many of you have had PH's joining in the hunt & shoot your animal?

Bill,

I would say in general that the PH most often does not even raise his/her rifle. On two occasions while following up game I had wounded I have requested the PH shoot if they get the opportunity. Also on an elephant hunt in Botswana I was going to try a brain shot from an odd angle and I told the PH if the bull wasn't instantly brained he should shoot. Not one ever shot without my request and I've hunted with 14 different PH's in 8 different African countries.
PH's very seldom shoot unless your life is in danger.

Mark

Other than a life and death situation in which we are being charged, I would make it clear from the beginning that if a PH puts a follow up shot in my animal, he is paying the trophy fee.

Professional hunters pride themselves on not firing a single shot during a whole season - some go many seasons without ever firing their rifles during a hunt.

The professional hunters I hunt with might have fired less than a handful of shots in almost 40 years of hunting.

And these were not on charging animals, but on wounded animals I was not able to see due to me position.

Bob,

I understand your sentiment on face value but everyone eventually makes a bad shot and wounds. in that scenario I think it is much better to have anyone shoot that has the opportunity to stop the animal's suffering. What I've found is that the PH even if he has the shot will if possible try to maneuver you into a position where you can do the shooting.

Mark

Last day last light, you and the PH put em down.

quote:

I understand your sentiment on face value but everyone eventually makes a bad shot and wounds. in that scenario I think it is much better to have anyone shoot that has the opportunity to stop the animal's suffering. What I've found is that the PH even if he has the shot will if possible try to maneuver you into a position where you can do the shooting.

Plus One on that.

Yes, I have never been on an African hunt, but I did two in Canada one for Moose and Woodland Caribou and the other for Musk Ox and Barren Ground Caribou and I actually felt uncomfortable with the concept that my guide on neither of those trips was armed.

I don't someone else shooting my game, but if I am screwing things up and something I have hit but not killed and it has the slightest chance of getting away I want someone else putting holes in the critter also.

I always make it a point to tell a new (to me) PH that if needed, they are to shoot. We can argue about it later but we both need to be alive for a good argument!

I've had some buff that weren't dieing very fast, but so far I haven't had a PH shoot or even raise his rifle.

Shoot. Work the bolt and be looking for the next shot. If the PH has to tell you to "Shoot again!" you're doing it wrong.

I keep a memory of any PH I see in a video shooting at a hunters animal.If I feel the shot was not needed I will remember not to ever book a hunt with that PH.Unless the hunter is an old lady in a wheel chair I see no need for the PH to shoot without the instruction or begging of the client.

I have only been on 3 safaris (one ellie and buff, the other two buff only). All the hunts were successful.

I had 3 different PHs (and outfitters) for each hunt.

They have never fired a shot (even though the second buff charged).

A really great PH IMO will fire only if the client requests backup before the hunt, or, in the case, of a close-range charge where the safety of someone is threatened.

I could also see a PH firing to prevent a wounded animal from going somewhere where it could not be recovered (i.e. National Park, different concession, etc), or if you had a wounded buff, lion or leopard that was going to go into some really thick stuff that would be extremely dangerous to track.

I think I have been blessed to have hunted with:
Lindon Stanton,
Kirk Mason,
Abby Stein.

JMO

BH63

I have not hunted dangerous game. Just regular PG. the only time I can remember the PH even bringing his rifle was when we were hunting giraffe. He brought his rifle in case I decided I wanted a larger caliber when it as show time.

I fully expect the PH to bring his rifle for DG. No issue with him firing if needed.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
I have been on six hunts to Africa,three for dangerous game & three for plainsgame,on two of these hunts the PH took a shot after I had shot the animal,the first was a zebra already on the ground with my shot,it had burst out of the bushes barely 10 yrds in front of us at a run,I anchored it with my shot but in the excitment the young PH shot it after it was on the ground,the second time was a Cape buff,my shot at 20 yrds or less in the heart had it charging straight at us,he veered towards an opening to our left as he was almost upon us,I got the second shot into him from my DR as he turned & at that moment my PH put a shot into him as well,my first shot was fatal & the buff was down in maybe another 20 yrds & I finished it off as I was the first one on the scene,that was a pretty good adrenaline experience,I am perfectly fine with the PH keeping things safe in the bush,I am curious as to how many of you have had PH's joining in the hunt & shoot your animal?

Zebra seems totally unjustified.

The buff I could see the possible need.

On my buffalo hunt my PH shot the same time as my third shot. It was getting dark and my buffalo forgot that he was supposed to die when he had holes in his lungs.

He hit a tree and then the bullet went into the Buff's gut.

I had no problem with it since I told him to shoot if he thought it was necessary and his last client lost a gut shot bull.

When the PH thinks it is necessary to shoot he shoots - !
Fortunately it has never happened to me, but rather than loosing it I think its good. There is just no argument.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
I have been on six hunts to Africa,three for dangerous game & three for plainsgame,on two of these hunts the PH took a shot after I had shot the animal,the first was a zebra already on the ground with my shot,it had burst out of the bushes barely 10 yrds in front of us at a run,I anchored it with my shot but in the excitment the young PH shot it after it was on the ground,the second time was a Cape buff,my shot at 20 yrds or less in the heart had it charging straight at us,he veered towards an opening to our left as he was almost upon us,I got the second shot into him from my DR as he turned & at that moment my PH put a shot into him as well,my first shot was fatal & the buff was down in maybe another 20 yrds & I finished it off as I was the first one on the scene,that was a pretty good adrenaline experience,I am perfectly fine with the PH keeping things safe in the bush,I am curious as to how many of you have had PH's joining in the hunt & shoot your animal?

Zebra seems totally unjustified.

The buff I could see the possible need.

Not if the zebra has a chance to hurt someone, or gets away to be chased all day.

My PHs can shoot any time they feel the need be, or like to shoot.

I have had occasions when a PH asked if he could finish an animal, to recover bullets.

There might be occasions where the PH has to finish the animal.

My friend Walter, for instance, has a medical problem that he cannot walk fast.

So if an animal is wounded and runs off, it is unfair on both him and the animal to delay finishing it off.

In our case, as Walter is using my rifle, he hands me the rifle as soon as he shoots, and says "here you are. I drew first blood. It is my animal, but you need the practice. Go and finish it off"

And I have to run and do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
I have been on six hunts to Africa,three for dangerous game & three for plainsgame,on two of these hunts the PH took a shot after I had shot the animal,the first was a zebra already on the ground with my shot,it had burst out of the bushes barely 10 yrds in front of us at a run,I anchored it with my shot but in the excitment the young PH shot it after it was on the ground,the second time was a Cape buff,my shot at 20 yrds or less in the heart had it charging straight at us,he veered towards an opening to our left as he was almost upon us,I got the second shot into him from my DR as he turned & at that moment my PH put a shot into him as well,my first shot was fatal & the buff was down in maybe another 20 yrds & I finished it off as I was the first one on the scene,that was a pretty good adrenaline experience,I am perfectly fine with the PH keeping things safe in the bush,I am curious as to how many of you have had PH's joining in the hunt & shoot your animal?

Zebra seems totally unjustified.

The buff I could see the possible need.

Not if the zebra has a chance to hurt someone, or gets away to be chased all day.

My PHs can shoot any time they feel the need be, or like to shoot.

I have had occasions when a PH asked if he could finish an animal, to recover bullets.

There might be occasions where the PH has to finish the animal.

My friend Walter, for instance, has a medical problem that he cannot walk fast.

So if an animal is wounded and runs off, it is unfair on both him and the animal to delay finishing it off.

In our case, as Walter is using my rifle, he hands me the rifle as soon as he shoots, and says "here you are. I drew first blood. It is my animal, but you need the practice. Go and finish it off"

And I have to run and do it.

Well done Walter, I like that attitude and acceptance that the animal deserves to be killed as humanely as possible and not to suit someones ego.

I and those I have hunted with have always done so on the basis that once the first shot is taken then anyone else who can get a clear shot to a wounded animal does so.
My lifetime of shooting has been not as a client paying to shoot a particular animal but even if I were the same premise would hold. I would want my PH to shoot immediately if the animal was not put down. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush has always been my motto when hunting.

Believe it or not, my dad shot a young gemsbok. He did not know judging as it was his first trip.

Anyway, the young PH says shoot and he drops it. It’s still alive when they walk up on it and he (PH) puts about 6 rounds into with his 9mm point blank.

Professional hunters pride themselves on not firing a single shot during a whole season - some go many seasons without ever firing their rifles during a hunt.

The professional hunters I hunt with might have fired less than a handful of shots in almost 40 years of hunting.

Interesting observation and in my experience quite true...... but in this lies a dilemma !

Part of a PH's job so to speak is to be a back up gun for when things go sideways during a DG hunt not so ? But if this PH has not shot his /her gun much how can they be proficient ?

In the world of human endeavour proficiency comes from practice, those most proficient do the most practice ! As Gary Player loved to remark on the subject of luck... "the more I practice the luckier I get "

Kim Rhode 6 types olympic gold medalist (trap and skeet) (USA ) shoots 800 to 1000 shots a Day in station drills.

Olympic archers, the same, Pistol shooting disciplines much the same in fact name the sport or activity. Proficiency in a physical activity that requires skill can only come from practice.

Professional warriors in spacial forces and law enforcement roles expend many many rounds in practice !

So then with the above in mind how do these PH's remain proficient ?

Surprisingly I shot twice this year. The first was a wounded buff in very long grass and we had walked past him and as he rose me and my hunter put him down.

Secondly was when a buff blundered into us at close quarters and the hunters shot seemingly did not register. I assure you the buff was close enough to warrant a shot from me.

These are not back up shots but rather to protect life.

The head shot on this buff still did not drop it but managed to turn the beast.



An experienced PH does not need to be told when to shoot and it will be instinctive.

In my VAST African hunting experience consisting of one safari and two buffalo

I told my PH Dylan, when we were following up a wounded buff, to shoot if he got the chance. He just said "Nah you'll be right" When we did find the downed buff he got me into position to put the finishers into him.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:


An experienced PH does not need to be told when to shoot and it will be instinctive.

And I guess that will be when you get that damp feeling in the nether regions

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Professional hunters pride themselves on not firing a single shot during a whole season - some go many seasons without ever firing their rifles during a hunt.

The professional hunters I hunt with might have fired less than a handful of shots in almost 40 years of hunting.

Interesting observation and in my experience quite true...... but in this lies a dilemma !

Part of a PH's job so to speak is to be a back up gun for when things go sideways during a DG hunt not so ? But if this PH has not shot his /her gun much how can they be proficient ?

In the world of human endeavour proficiency comes from practice, those most proficient do the most practice ! As Gary Player loved to remark on the subject of luck... "the more I practice the luckier I get "

Kim Rhode 6 types olympic gold medalist (trap and skeet) (USA ) shoots 800 to 1000 shots a Day in station drills.

Olympic archers, the same, Pistol shooting disciplines much the same in fact name the sport or activity. Proficiency in a physical activity that requires skill can only come from practice.

Professional warriors in spacial forces and law enforcement roles expend many many rounds in practice !

So then with the above in mind how do these PH's remain proficient ?

Gary player is absolutely right.

A wonderful gentleman, had dinner with him here in my house years ago.

The professional hunters I hunt with are extremely good shots.

I have seen some that are not so good at it.

I had them back me up on elephants
No reason to loose one as everyone can mess up shot

My first trip to Namibia, I shot a beautiful 54” kudu bull with my .300 WSM . While he dropped immediately at the shot, he continued to flop around. My PH, Jan du Plessis, gave me his .44 Magnum that he carries on his hip, and told me to finish him with a shot to the neck. I did, and he expired immediately.

quote:

Originally posted by deadibob:
Other than a life and death situation in which we are being charged, I would make it clear from the beginning that if a PH puts a follow up shot in my animal, he is paying the trophy fee.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
I have been on six hunts to Africa,three for dangerous game & three for plainsgame,on two of these hunts the PH took a shot after I had shot the animal,the first was a zebra already on the ground with my shot,it had burst out of the bushes barely 10 yrds in front of us at a run,I anchored it with my shot but in the excitment the young PH shot it after it was on the ground,the second time was a Cape buff,my shot at 20 yrds or less in the heart had it charging straight at us,he veered towards an opening to our left as he was almost upon us,I got the second shot into him from my DR as he turned & at that moment my PH put a shot into him as well,my first shot was fatal & the buff was down in maybe another 20 yrds & I finished it off as I was the first one on the scene,that was a pretty good adrenaline experience,I am perfectly fine with the PH keeping things safe in the bush,I am curious as to how many of you have had PH's joining in the hunt & shoot your animal?

Zebra seems totally unjustified.

The buff I could see the possible need.

You are correct,I was actually annoyed that he did,but I chalked it up to him being a very young inexperienced guy who just wanted to shoot his new 308 ,this was a cull hunt in SA,we got a heck of a deal,the PH's were nice guys but were not even close to the capabilities of their comrades say in ZIM,I was hunting with a very good friend of mine,one morning we saw a shootable Cape cow,my buddy hits it with a round from his 470,the cow goes down,his PH fires,cow is still trying to get up,I say what the heck & put one through the shoulders,the cow expires ha ha,upon inspection,the PH had shot it through one of the horns,it was kinda funny,we had fun & the price was good,both the PH's were weekend warriors,we got a good deal & went with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bud Meadows:
My first trip to Namibia, I shot a beautiful 54” kudu bull with my .300 WSM . While he dropped immediately at the shot, he continued to flop around. My PH, Jan du Plessis, gave me his .44 Magnum that he carries on his hip, and told me to finish him with a shot to the neck. I did, and he expired immediately.

You shot Jan Du Plessis????

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Professional hunters pride themselves on not firing a single shot during a whole season - some go many seasons without ever firing their rifles during a hunt.

The professional hunters I hunt with might have fired less than a handful of shots in almost 40 years of hunting.
I’ll tell you one thing, he’s not going

Interesting observation and in my experience quite true...... but in this lies a dilemma !

Part of a PH's job so to speak is to be a back up gun for when things go sideways during a DG hunt not so ? But if this PH has not shot his /her gun much how can they be proficient ?

In the world of human endeavour proficiency comes from practice, those most proficient do the most practice ! As Gary Player loved to remark on the subject of luck... "the more I practice the luckier I get "

Kim Rhode 6 types olympic gold medalist (trap and skeet) (USA ) shoots 800 to 1000 shots a Day in station drills.

Olympic archers, the same, Pistol shooting disciplines much the same in fact name the sport or activity. Proficiency in a physical activity that requires skill can only come from practice.

Professional warriors in spacial forces and law enforcement roles expend many many rounds in practice !

So then with the above in mind how do these PH's remain proficient ?

I’ll tell you one thing. The PH isn’t going to get proficient at my expense!!!

I've seen my PH's fire four shots. An elephant on which I attempted a side brain shot at a severe quartering away angle. He went down front legs first. Our second shots to the lungs were almost simultaneous.

A buffalo that I shot badly. When he broke from cover, I swung on him but had to break off because the PH was slightly in front of me given where the buffalo came from. I yelled at him to shoot to prevent a long tracking job, potentially endangering the trackers. He had the shot and took it.

A wounded impala that continued to run at the PH's shot that I put down.

And finally, a lion mauled roan. I loaned my PH my light rifle to dispatch it, with the game scout's full consent. He was in very sorry shape, the roan, that is.

quote:

Originally posted by samir:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Professional hunters pride themselves on not firing a single shot during a whole season - some go many seasons without ever firing their rifles during a hunt.

The professional hunters I hunt with might have fired less than a handful of shots in almost 40 years of hunting.
I’ll tell you one thing, he’s not going

Interesting observation and in my experience quite true...... but in this lies a dilemma !

Part of a PH's job so to speak is to be a back up gun for when things go sideways during a DG hunt not so ? But if this PH has not shot his /her gun much how can they be proficient ?

In the world of human endeavour proficiency comes from practice, those most proficient do the most practice ! As Gary Player loved to remark on the subject of luck... "the more I practice the luckier I get "

Kim Rhode 6 types olympic gold medalist (trap and skeet) (USA ) shoots 800 to 1000 shots a Day in station drills.

Olympic archers, the same, Pistol shooting disciplines much the same in fact name the sport or activity. Proficiency in a physical activity that requires skill can only come from practice.

Professional warriors in spacial forces and law enforcement roles expend many many rounds in practice !

So then with the above in mind how do these PH's remain proficient ?

I’ll tell you one thing. The PH isn’t going to get proficient at my expense!!!

Samir:

I could not agree more with you!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Bob,

I understand your sentiment on face value but everyone eventually makes a bad shot and wounds. in that scenario I think it is much better to have anyone shoot that has the opportunity to stop the animal's suffering. What I've found is that the PH even if he has the shot will if possible try to maneuver you into a position where you can do the shooting.

Mark

I understand when a bad shot is made and there is a wounded animal. That is completely acceptable. There are many trigger happy guides however. I spent a spring and a fall filming for an Alaska outfit and more often than not, 2 shots sounded as one.

If I'm spending the type of money to hunt where a guide is involved, it is most likely a once in a lifetime type of hunt. No trigger happy guide is hunting on my tag and my dime. If I screw up and make a bad shot that's another story. When the follow up shot from a guide comes before the sound of the first shot has died off, there isn't enough time to know if a second shot is needed and most cases a competent hunter will get that second shot off quick enough.

quote:

Originally posted by deadibob:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Bob,

I understand your sentiment on face value but everyone eventually makes a bad shot and wounds. in that scenario I think it is much better to have anyone shoot that has the opportunity to stop the animal's suffering. What I've found is that the PH even if he has the shot will if possible try to maneuver you into a position where you can do the shooting.

Mark

I understand when a bad shot is made and there is a wounded animal. That is completely acceptable. There are many trigger happy guides however. I spent a spring and a fall filming for an Alaska outfit and more often than not, 2 shots sounded as one.

If I'm spending the type of money to hunt where a guide is involved, it is most likely a once in a lifetime type of hunt. No trigger happy guide is hunting on my tag and my dime. If I screw up and make a bad shot that's another story. When the follow up shot from a guide comes before the sound of the first shot has died off, there isn't enough time to know if a second shot is needed and most cases a competent hunter will get that second shot off quick enough.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you in terms of the situation where two shots sound as one i.e. yours and the PH's but if the animal runs off after taking an obvious hit it should be finished off by whoever has a clear shot.

I hear so many state their shot was a fatal one but they are only making this statement in hindsight after the animal does eventually drop or is dropped by another shot or shots.
Most get a bit of a shock if an animal doesn't drop at their shot, unless they know they pulled the shot or something like that. Yes for sure we are, or should be, sure of the placement of our shot but sometimes things just don't work out as you expected when you pulled the trigger and the animal bolts.
Heart shot animals usually leap and then bolt like hell and the shot is eventually fatal but this reaction is also the much the same for animals hit too low in the brisket or in the leg and is not a fatal shot.

Easy to analyse and justify who shot or who didn't after the animal is on the deck, if it is decked eventually but in the heat of the moment once the first shot is fired and the animal doesn't go down and makes off, I challenge anyone to put hand on heart and say don't bother shooting again, it is mine. One day it won't be and then your ego will go with it.

A PH can and should shoot when necessary to save human life or put down an escaping wounded animal. IMHO, that's it.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
A PH can and should shoot when necessary to save human life or put down an escaping wounded animal. IMHO, that's it.

This could have been such a short post.

I feel that the hunter should do the job.If they can't they should stay home or go on a photo safari instead.The PH should only shoot to protect the party from a charge.I don't buy any of this PH shooting for this or that.

Andrew: My Dad always said ...”Nobody likes a smartass “

Bob,

I've represented several operators in Alaska for several years. No client has ever told me that the guide shot directly following his shot. I might suggest that the client who found themselves in that situation should pick a different operator next time. What you wrote about does happen for sure. 30 years ago a guide told me he always backed up his clients on a brown bear regardless of the situation. I guess as in Africa a hunter needs to get all that clear with the professional before going in the field.

Mark

I've only ever done three guided hunts in Africa - and then only for plains game.

I have however done dozens and dozens of self-guided hunts - including for buffalo and most often with no backup of any kind. It's noticeable by it's absence. Its pretty lonely standing there with only you and Bwana Nyati.

quote:

Originally posted by Bud Meadows:
Andrew: My Dad always said ...”Nobody likes a smartass “

A wise man.

Surely you go on safari knowing the history of the man that is to conduct the hunt? Or alternatively you do not then question his ability?

The whole thread is confusing and I do not need to be of Navy Seal status to shoot a dinner plate at 20 feet but what I do know is that you have to be calm in such situations and override mental messages to get the hell out.

Backup shots are a completely different scenario and very valuable species such as elephant require some communication.

Shooting a Blesbuck behind a fence not so much

Thank you Andrew
That’s how I feel in Africa
In Europe, hunting rule is first bullet gets the right to the animal period
Finishing shots are just insurance and prevent animals suffering unnecessarily