Somebody bought that peashooter..

Mike

Here is one to stop all of those charging Elk
Elk Stopping Revolver

I sent an email asking for more information on the 444 Marlin's elephant killing record. The reply follows:

Youll see a lot of articles on the 378 Weatherby and many other newer magnums, but none of them were around 20 years ago. It also might surprise you that more deer have been taken with the 30-30 than any other round. This is because the .308 and 30-06 were not even born/popular (respectively) when the Winchester 30-30 lever "grass gun" was taking thousands of deer. There are hundreds of articles on handloading the 444 for grizzly, elephants and even cape buffalo. I doubt that no other round will ever "catch up" with the 444's elephant record due to age, and the number of new magnum calibers being introduced each year. Here is one article we pulled at random:


"More big predators are killed between 50-150 yards than at less than 50 yards. The medium bore rifle really comes into its own at these practical ranges, and is the optimum choice. A minimum of 3,000 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy is sometimes recommended for the big cats and great bears, along with a controlled expansion type bullet with a minimum SD of .266 for small bore cartridges, .245 for the mediums, and .233 for the big bores.Cartridges that approach or exceed this minimum include the 7mm Mag., .30-06 Spfd., .300 Mag., 8x68S, 8mm Rem. Mag., .338-06, .338 Mag, .340 Wby. Mag., .358 Win. (250 grain bullet), .350 Rem. Mag., .35 Whelen, .358 Norma Mag., 9.3x62, 9.3x64, 9.3x74R, .375 Mag., .405 Win., .444 Marlin (max. reloads with 300 grain bullets), .450 Marlin, and .45-70 (+P reloads with 350+ grain bullets)... In the US, even for the most dangerous and largest game such as Elk and Grizzly, any of these loads in a large revolver are as safe as a bolt action rifle. The medium bore "historic" loads like the 444 actually outperform the big new bores due to weight and difficulty of use at shorter yardages with the newer "elephant" rifles. Double shots and single shots are also falling out of favor when in reality their performance in real life is much more time proven; they and the lever 444 can get off second and third shots much more effectively than a bolt action design when the game is most dangerous: in a wounded condition."

Unfortunately the one we had was sold, but I'm sure you can get a Thompson Center or Magnum Research on many of the other auctions. This is a $1,000 gun we sold for $700 and change so our buyer will be a happy camper! I you're after Elk, you might also try the new XVR 460 from Smith. We lead handgun elk hunts several times a year and the 500 has been a disappointment due to drop off in velocity and energy at the muzzle. For the 444 most of our hunters handload their own "wildcat" loads as the bullet is easy to work with.

Jeanie

Wasn't the .444 Marlin introduced in 1964? How long does Jeanie think the .375 H&H has been around?

It seems Jeanie has selected some information from this article Chuck Hawks

Large thin-skinned dangerous game (CXP3)
My second category of thin-skinned dangerous game includes the really large predators, like the African lion and the Asian tiger, plus the grizzly, brown, and polar bears. Full grown big cats can weigh between 330 and 500 pounds; the great bears average about 700 pounds, and can grow to twice that size in exceptional cases. These are fast moving animals that can be hard to stop, and they deserve serious caliber rifles. Good bullet placement is paramount. Powerful all-around rifles like the .30-06 and 7mm Magnum have often been used successfully, but they should be regarded as the practical minimum for these dangerous beasts.

At the other end of the power scale are the big bore "elephant guns" chambered for cartridges lilke the .416 Rigby, .416 Rem. Mag, .458 Win. Mag., and .470 Nitro Express. When used with expanding bullets, they have plenty of power. And, of course, they are ideal for stopping a charge at close range (under 50 yards). But these heavy rifles with their outsized recoil are not optimum for use at normal ranges. The rainbow trajectory of the elephant guns makes them less than ideal for shots over 100 yards. And most shooters find them more difficult to shoot accurately than rifles for the cartridges recommended below.

More big predators are killed between 50-150 yards than at less than 50 yards. The medium bore rifle really comes into its own at these practical ranges, and is the optimum choice. A minimum of 3,000 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy is sometimes recommended for the big cats and great bears, along with a controlled expansion type bullet with a minimum SD of .266 for small bore cartridges, .245 for the mediums, and .233 for the big bores.

Cartridges that approach or exceed this minimum include the 7mm Mag., .30-06 Spfd., .300 Mag., 8x68S, 8mm Rem. Mag., .338-06, .338 Mag, .340 Wby. Mag., .358 Win. (250 grain bullet), .350 Rem. Mag., .35 Whelen, .358 Norma Mag., 9.3x62, 9.3x64, 9.3x74R, .375 Mag., .405 Win., .444 Marlin (max. reloads with 300 grain bullets), .450 Marlin, and .45-70 (+P reloads with 350+ grain bullets).

The rifle I would most like to have in my hands to deal with one of these dangerous animals would be an autoloading Browning BAR Safari Mk. II, with a 1.5-6x scope, in .338 Win. Mag.

Thick-skinned dangerous game (CXP4)
The final category of dangerous game is the thick-skinned heavy game like buffalo, rhino, and elephant. The only thick-skinned game in North America with which I am familiar is the American bison. The American bison is a really big bovine, adult males averaging about 1600 pounds on the hoof, which is about 60% larger than the average African Cape buffalo. A very large bison may weigh 2000 pounds.

The thick-skinned game in India include the Guar (a large bovine) and the wild water buffalo. The wild water buffalo is also found, and hunted, in Australia. These huge animals approximate the North American bison is weight.


In Africa there are the Big Three: Cape buffalo, rhino, and elephant. An average Cape buffalo will weigh 1000 pounds, and a very large buffalo will run about 1600 pounds. Black rhino average about 2100 pounds, and white rhino average about 5000 pounds. An African elephant can weigh 13,000 pounds!

About 5,000 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy seems to be ideal for these huge CXP4 class beasts. Bullets with a SD of .300 or higher are recommended. The experts generally recommend a big bore rifle shooting heavy weight, solid (non-expanding) bullets, in case the hunter has to stop or turn a charging animal. Tough, controlled expansion, premium bullets like the A-Square Dead Tough, Barnes X-Bullet, Swift A-Frame and Winchester Fail Safe have gained a reputation as good medicine since their introduction.

What is left of this kind of hunting is mostly in Africa, where the following are recommended: 9.3x64, .375 Mag., .378 Wby., .404 Rimless NE, .416 Rigby, .416 Mag., .450 Nitro Express, .458 Win. Mag., .460 Wby. Mag., .470 Nitro Express, and .500 NE 3".

An example of a classic African rifle is my old Browning Safari Grade FN bolt action in .458 Win. Mag., which wears a 1-4x scope.



Regards,

Terry

Is it legal to have this much fun?????

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Is it legal to have this much fun?????

Ask :
Laura McKinnon, J.D.

ETI General Counsel

McKinnon and Langley

Attorneys at Law

I'm sure she'll tell you if it's not!

Why not post this link to them?

Regards,
Martin

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Hey guys, look what I got back after I wrote them thanking them for the great laughs.

quote:

Dear Member Missing Mojo:



Are you aware that the purpose of the Gunbroker venue, and the ask seller a question function, is to facilitate transactions? Are you aware that your account can be immediately closed for sending unsolicited comments, threats, advice or criticism?



One emailer continually harassed ETI’s listings, and continued the harassment after their account was terminated. By examining their feedback, we determined that their buy/sell pattern constituted sale without a license, and they are now serving federal prison sentences on multiple counts of BATF violations. We mention this because we rarely get criticism or unsolicited advice from fellow dealers, and often the person attacking would rather look anywhere but in the mirror. If you continue to have issues, please have your attorney contact me.



Very Sincerely,



Laura McKinnon, J.D.

ETI General Counsel

McKinnon and Langley

Attorneys at Law



PS: Our gunsmith tells me that the 444Marlin quote was from the head of R and D at Marlin, but of course he's not the president of a double barrel rifle shooting thingy, and is only a humble engineer. I'll be you introduce yourself as a president, carry a card saying so, and barely made it through HS, right?

I wonder why she didn't put down an address, or phone number for that law firm.

Judgeing from the PS, I'd say she usually is in charge cleaning one of their bathrooms, and the PS also denotes just who, in this, conforntation, made it past "HS" as she puts it.

I know Rusty is shakeing in his boots!

quote:

Originally posted by Marterius:
Why not post this link to them?

Regards,
Martin

Somebody who knows how should do exactly that!
What they post, in their discription of the quality of this pistol, may be accurate, but the claims for the 444. Marlin are, plain, and simple, OUTRIGHT LIES! I have my doubts that any elephant has ever been killed by a RIFLE, or PISTOL, chambered for the 444 Marlin cartridge, much less "MORE THAN ANY OTHER CARTRIDGE IN AFRICA". It is plainly nothing more than a +P 44 mag, and doesn't even have a good reputation on 200 pound Black Bear! A 22 lr will kill anything on Earth, if you can get the bullet into the vitals, but getting it there is the problem that it shares with the 444 Marlin, on Elephant under hunting conditions! Shooting that cartridge into wet news papers is not proof. Let them puff, and blow, all they want, they do not have a leg to stand on, and if they try takeing an elephant with one of those things, chambered for 444 Marlin, they will not have a Butt to connect the legs to anyway!

I say if they can stand behind their claims let them sue! They cannot show even one case of an elephant killing, with the 444 Marlin, and certainly not with that handgun!

It seems, today, folks think they can make any claim they want, regardless of whether or not it's true, and get up tight when called on their lies! I say let them come on!

quote:

Originally posted by Brac2005:
What's the penalty for impersonating a lawyer?

I don't know! About 1/3 of the folks here are either Attorneys, or law enforcment people, and I'm sure some of them could tell us! Maybe that Marlin R&D engineer has a law degree as well! He most likely does, because elephant shooting is certainly not within his understanding!

What a great example of why you should be an informed buyer, especially on internet auctions. On any internet product auction of any kind. This is what I do.

In addition, to my own product research, I always like to read the feedback reviews on sellers. Sometimes the content of the reviews is more important than the raw "satisfaction" score. This is the kind of content that throws up red flags for me.

1. If they all say essentially the same thing. Especially if they are ALL positive in nature. You just can't make everyone happy, that's a fact. Folks are much more likely to send in a review if they are PO'd. And say nothing if they are happy.

2. If it looks like they were all written by one person... they probably were. Everyone has a different writing style. After a while you can identify the authors.

3. The reviews rarely mention what was actually purchased. A positive review that doesn't mention the product they purchased is thanking the seller for what???

4. There are multiple "good" reviews posted by several of the same group of buyers. And strangely they never mention they are repeat customers???

Well I wrote Magun Research and ask them this question

quote:

I came across one of your products on GunBroker.com
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=36823384
Would you characterize those claims as valid?

Here is their answer.

quote:

No I would not. There are a lot a variables in the information that he
is providing. such as the muzzle vilocity(what kind of ammo is he using,
is it the same grain bullets in all three calibers) all of this will
produce different resaults.and as far as lifetime warranty,MRI only
offers a 1 year parts and labor warranty, so unless he bought the gun
from Davidson's then it is only 1 year. So needless to say I would just
stay away from that person selling that gun. In the mean time I will
send you out a BFR catalog and a BFR factoid sheet that will give you a
lot more information.

Ya just gotta love it! I think I will forward it to the seller!

Me thinks you have him by the short hairs about the "Lifetime Warranty". Unless the seller is offering one. I wonder how they will respond to that. BTW, I do have one of Magnum Research's BFR revolvers in 500 S&W and love it. It would not be my first choice for elephant, however.

S*&t guys! It was me that bought it. I didn't read all the posts first, I got to where the Marlin engineer gave them the facts and figured he must know what he was talking about. since I hope to hunt Africa at some point and right now I only have a 375 H&H I thought "444 is bigger, engineers have more schooling than me" and didn't want to miss out.

Kidding of course, I am hoping that whoever bought it just did so to have a big fun toy.

Red

Well here is the response I got.

This guy is obviously impersonating a lawyer now.

quote:

You're an idiot. Tell me who told you this at MR (if you're not lying) and I'll have him fired in an instant. I believe you made it up! You clearly need to get a life. I hope GB does contact me, as I'll find out who you spoke to at MR, if you're not lying, and will have his name to their CEO in about 60 seconds. They will not only retract, but will likely fire him, and come after you. That's what's known as buying power, which I have, given the hundreds of MR products we sell each year. Meanwhile, I'm putting you on spam status and any further communications will go directly into the trash. You are truly pathetic and clearly don't have enough of a life of your own to focus on your own misery instead of attacking others. If I ever find out who you are, and I will truly try, I will sue you so fast your head will spin.

Laura

Second email

quote:

I had no idea you are an NR member. I wouldn't have wasted a moment on you if I'd known you're nobody!!! WHAT A TOTAL LOSER! WHY NOT BID ON SOMETHING, INSTEAD OF WASTING YOUR TIME ON REAL AUCTIONS? YOU HAVE NO MONEY BUT HAVE A KEYBOARD, HOW DO YOU SPELL LOSER??? LIKE ANYONE WILL LISTEN TO SOMEONE WHO IS LESS THAN A FLY SPECK! LOTS OF LUCK...I NOW DOUBT THAT MR WOULD EVEN TAKE YOUR CALL, WHAT A LIAR!!!

Who was it above that said "Too much fun"?

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Regards,

Terry

T,
It isn't the attorney. No lawyer could be that stupid. It's the seller pretending to be the attorney. The emails are from the same addy.

I have found GB Holding in Atlanta GA. They own GunBroker.com

I will forward this information to them later today, as soon as I get an email address.

Damn Rusty, I'm rolling here! I believe you "got" to him.

I'd send that moron's response to the person you contacted at Magnum Research just as a heads up in case the moron tries to twist the facts "if" he calls them.

You should give them a link to the Political Forum. They'd fit right in!

What a Fu_k_ng idiot. People like that dont even deserve to be protected by the law.
Where was that country a few hundred years ago where you had no protection whatsoever, you were outside of the law.
Hence the term "Outlaw" that is where these people should be.

They should take that super duper hand cannon and hunt elephant and find one of the most pissed off elephants and have to stop it from making them just a piece of the landscape with no backup whatsoever.

By the way give em hell Rusty.

Here is Gunbrokers response.

quote:

9/16/2005 11:03:47 AM
GBSupport1012
The email in question is not from GunBroker.com OR our counsel, it would appear to be from ETI's counsel. The relevant section of the GunBroker.com user agreement is included below. In ETI defense, they have been harassed before and are a bit touchy on the subject. Add to that, your question was a bit adversarial in nature and we can understand their response. Since we have no control over email once the conversation is initiated, there is nothing we can do about this particular matter.

19. Mail System / Spam. Our user-to-user messaging system ("Ask Seller a Question", "Mail this Listing to a Friend", etc.) exists solely to allow contact between bidder (or potential bidder) and seller for the purpose of engaging in or completing an auction transaction. Use of the messaging system for any other purpose is prohibited.

Users agree to refrain from "spamming" (sending unsolicited commercial email to other users). A seller may not contact the bidder(s) on similar listed items and promote his own item or offer another item for sale. Users may not send spam through this auction site or through other mail servers for any purpose, including promoting this site to earn affiliate program rewards. Spamming will be reported to the applicable ISP(s) for further punitive action and may result in criminal or civil penalties under various laws.

Abuse of our mail system and/or sending spam is a serious offense and will result in closure of your account here.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Is it legal to have this much fun?????

As my buddy says "Where can you have this much fun with your clothes on???!!"

quote:

...they have been harassed before...

Apparently it is not the first time they have written a load of sh*t about the stuff they are selling and others have reacted before. Not a fast learner it seems... Except when it comes to bad language, but perhaps dear Laura has trained a lot on those skills.

I love this thread!


Regards,
Martin

I did a search and called ETI. I spoke to a 60 yr old man who claimed to be the owner. I explained to him how silly he and his company look, I even read the ad to him in an effort to get him to see how silly it sounds. He laughed thru the whole thing. Here a few of his responses

My daughter runs it now and she does the ads.

Its OK if we look silly, it still sells guns.

Our lawyer has the same first name as my daughter and I can assure you she is very polite on the web.

The info on power comes from our in-house gunsmith and if he says the 444 is a stopping round from a handgun he has sources for that.

I'm just an old Airborne Ranger chopper pilot and not a gun expert like you. ( as other Rangers here can attest to the easiest way to expose a wannabe Ranger is to ask their Ranger Class Number, he had no idea what I was talking about).

Isn't the 444 more powerful than the SW and Ruger Alasken revolvers.

Then the old man posed this question to me. " If you walked out of your tent in the woods and saw a grizzly bear charging you from 100 yrds which would you rather have the SW Defender in 357 ( ??? ) or the 444 ". I guess this was an attempt to trick me, I have no idea where the SW reference came from. I explained to him neither round would stop a mad griz'. He couldn't belive it. I told him marketing a revolver as a dangerous game stopper may lead some inexperienced camper to belive a 444 will protect them from a charging bear and that will get them killed. He told me that was OK because Ruger markets their Alasken Revolver and SW their 500 the same way so he coulden't be held responsible.

The whole place is being run by idiots, amazing..................JJ

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
You should give them a link to the Political Forum. They'd fit right in!

Tigger.....that might be a tad drastic.....it's easier to see a 45-70 revolver as an ele gun than make sanity of the political forum.

This thread has kept me laughing for two days now.

Give 'em hell Rusty.

Well,I usually stay away from the 444/45-70 debates..Butt-On this one-How many of you Guru's have shot an Elephant?I know there are some but not the amount of replies..I could only guess.

I remember something posted by Ray Atikson o the Big Game Forum when a few "Idiots" gave him hell on Elk Hunting.If I remember correctly Ray said:
I'll bet most of you idiots have never seen an Elk let alone kill one!!!Humm!!!

The moral of the story is..Born and raised in Idaho..I have seen the 45-70 knock Elk almost off it's feet..I have also seen the 30-06 fail..Wait..Did the 30-06 fail or was it the bullet?

My first Elk hunt was in 1951 in the Selway-Bitteroot..16 miles in.I have seen alot of calibers take big critters..Some better than others..Or was it the Bullet??Or maybe shot placement???

Yep...The 45-70 with North Fork/Swift A-Frames/Woodleighs etc etc is only a "Marginal" Deer calibre.

Loosen up guys,The 444 Marlin can kill and Elephant as the .475 Linebaugh/.500 Linebaugh or even the little .454 Casull...Not the choice of arms maybe,but there are those that want to use something different than the .460's of this world in an arm wrenching rifle.

Down with the 45-70 and all it's kin. Fed alot of people for alot of years but now it's just a Deer gun.....As the 444 and any pistol...

Forgive me....

Jayco

Hell, Jayo. A stick with shit smeared on it can kill an elephant if you have 2 weeks to wait for the infection to set in. I sure wouldn't advertise or sell my shit-covered stick as the greatest thing in elephant hunting, though.

If I won a trip to Africa-I wouldn't go...Not my cup of tea not to knock those whose it is.But it appears those that hate the 45-70 and like cartridges do not have the appropriate experience with them and the boolits of today..Hell-Hornady has like 5 different 350 grain bullets out for it in different Company names.

If I went to Africa,I would choose a different caliber than the 45-70 but then again I Bow Hunt and even thought of useing the 454 for Elk if I can get close enough..To each there own but I don't knock the 7MM mag or other calibers I have seen fail time after time..Or was it "Shot Placement" or maybe "The Bullet"..Awe..Who knows because of idiots like Carmello who wants and lives to incite riots.


This thread caught my eye from Ray Atkinsons observations on the Big Game forum when asome idiots ganged up and layed it on perty hard but as he said...Most of you guys have never seen a live Elk let alone killed one...

Does that hold true here?

Jayco

I for one would have NO problems paying $10000 for a gun in this caliber, providing it was $10000Zimbabwe Dollars.

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:
Well,I usually stay away from the 444/45-70 debates..Butt-On this one-How many of you Guru's have shot an Elephant?I know there are some but not the amount of replies..I could only guess.

I remember something posted by Ray Atikson o the Big Game Forum when a few "Idiots" gave him hell on Elk Hunting.If I remember correctly Ray said:
I'll bet most of you idiots have never seen an Elk let alone kill one!!!Humm!!!

The moral of the story is..Born and raised in Idaho..I have seen the 45-70 knock Elk almost off it's feet..I have also seen the 30-06 fail..Wait..Did the 30-06 fail or was it the bullet?

My first Elk hunt was in 1951 in the Selway-Bitteroot..16 miles in.I have seen alot of calibers take big critters..Some better than others..Or was it the Bullet??Or maybe shot placement???

Yep...The 45-70 with North Fork/Swift A-Frames/Woodleighs etc etc is only a "Marginal" Deer calibre.

Loosen up guys,The 444 Marlin can kill and Elephant as the .475 Linebaugh/.500 Linebaugh or even the little .454 Casull...Not the choice of arms maybe,but there are those that want to use something different than the .460's of this world in an arm wrenching rifle.

Down with the 45-70 and all it's kin. Fed alot of people for alot of years but now it's just a Deer gun.....As the 444 and any pistol...

Forgive me....

Jayco

I don't know what everyone else is laughing about, but I'm laughing at their statement:

"This FACTORY NEW Magnum Research revolver is in the caliber that kills more elephants than any other each year: the 444 Marlin."

Maybe someone has killed an elephant with a 444. If so, more power to them but the advertising is pure bullshit.

This, combined with the letter from their "attorney" is one of the funniest things that I've seen in weeks!

I'm waiting for the "seller" to arrive here. That should be interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

"This FACTORY NEW Magnum Research revolver is in the caliber that kills more elephants than any other each year: the 444 Marlin."

Maybe someone has killed an elephant with a 444. If so, more power to them but the advertising is pure bullshit.

After a bit of email communication with the ETI folks, I believe the intended interpretation is..... the Magnum Research revolver in 444 Marlin is the revolver that kills more elephants each year than any other revolver.

I'm no large caliber handgun aficionado, and certainly no expert in that area, but the above might be more palatable than the statement "The 444 Marlin kills more elephants annually than any other caliber". Which is how the statement in the ad is most readily interpreted.

quote:

This, combined with the letter from their "attorney" is one of the funniest things that I've seen in weeks!

There certainly is some sensitivity to any questioning of the validity of the text in their descriptions.

FWIW......my recent emails with Jeanie have been pretty cordial. The girl has a sense of humor.

GV

Throughout all of this I have only one question.

How many elephants have been killed, each year, with that caliber revolver? OK, ever killed with that caliber revolver?

Their advertising is misleading to say the least.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

Their advertising is misleading to say the least.

well, I certainly think so.

It's also interesting that the justification for the hyperbole is......it results in sales. The theme of the indignant email replies is "why be so critical of the accuracy of our description when we obvously are successful at selling the product?".

On a related note....

The administration of Gunbroker.com is a real package! My initial email question to ETI about the 444 Marlin "elephant killer" got flagged in the mix with countless others. I falsly presumed that I could participate in a dialog about the issue with Gunbroker......particularly since subsequent emails with ETI had been pleasant and likely identified some confusing issues. Nope. You're pig shit to Gunbroker if a seller says they don't like you. Period. This issue has been discussed before if I recall.

Not a big deal, but it certainly solidifies some of the preconceptions I had about the site.

GV