Gentlemen: This may be off the wall, but what if----------- one were to take a rifle into RSA and just leave the country without the rifle? Thanks, Luke

There are export regs here and likely import regs there that would have some bearing on it.

It has been discussed here before but I am not sure the easiest way to search the topic.

Here's one from 07:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=1411043&m=957106447

If it leaves the US with you on a temporary export permit it better come back with you on the same permit or you'll have some explaining to do...

There is no such thing as a temporary export permit from the US, as far as traveling sportsmen are concerned. You just leave with it. Nobody keeps track of it.

There is a process to permanently export a gun from here and import it into other countries. I believe it is very difficult.

The only paperwork you need to take a gun out of the US is your plane ticket

If you bring a firearm into RSA on a temporary import permit and then leave without it, you'll be breaking the law in a big way and will be 'flagged up' on the computer if you return again. They'll also go to the place you hunted to ask what happened to your firearm...... I wouldn't recommend it.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
There is no such thing as a temporary export permit from the US, as far as traveling sportsmen are concerned. You just leave with it. Nobody keeps track of it.

There is a process to permanently export a gun from here and import it into other countries. I believe it is very difficult.

Here it is:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53209.pdf

http://www.southafrica-newyork...te/forms/saps311.pdf

Ask Larry

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
If it leaves the US with you on a temporary export permit it better come back with you on the same permit or you'll have some explaining to do...

absolutely 100% wrong. an export permit is completely different from the standard customs declaration /form you get when you leave the country. there are no "temporary" export permits. if you export an item, gun or otherwise, it is permanently gone.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
If it leaves the US with you on a temporary export permit it better come back with you on the same permit or you'll have some explaining to do...

absolutely 100% wrong. an export permit is completely different from the standard customs declaration /form you get when you leave the country. there are no "temporary" export permits. if you export an item, gun or otherwise, it is permanently gone.

Some of you guys need to read the thread AGAIN ...my point, which I thought was pretty obvious, is that if one "temporarily exports" a firearm and in the process permanently exports said firearm by leaving it behind - then you'd have some explaining to do...maybe next time I'll use a crayola to lay things out...

It is a breach of Federal Firearms Laws to export a rifle (or ammo, or parts, or even brass and bullets) without a State Dept export permit. The only real exceptions are antiques, and fired shotgun shells. Taking a personal rifle on a hunting trip is not considered "export", but leaving it there is.

RSA is reasonably well organized...the flow of firearms into and out of the country is recorded and monitored in a central database, as well as recorded in log books. If you bring one in and don't take it out, you have broken their laws as well. As has the person who kept it. The most likely way you will be caught is when the person who keeps it tries to register it..they want to know who the prior owner was. You may be gone by then, but next time they may have a surprise in store for you.

The chances of getting caught are low but the price is high.

quote:

RSA is reasonably well organized...

Wonder if they have some organized reciprocity with their counterparts in the USA...?? If so, you may leave it and have a surprise waiting for you in here as well...

Macifej,

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to say that there was no such thing as a temporary export permit. My point was that as a traveling sportsman, guns are not rerulated by any temporary export permits.

Nobody knows what guns you leave with.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
as far as traveling sportsmen are concerned. You just leave with it. Nobody keeps track of it.

Check your rifle and ammo in the airline approved cases. Take your ticket and get on the airplane.

Upon returning with your firearm, you are going to need your little piece of paper (US Customs form) stating that you own the rifle prior to your departure and proving that you didn't just buy it somewhere and are importing the firearm into the US without proper paperwork, permits and fees!

You might also consider that forums such as this are monitored from time to time by various agencies etc and by even discussing such matters you just might be making trouble for yourself at some time in the future.

Not only should you hold a 4457 for your firearm(s), the boys in blue can take your Rolex, your Sony camera, your foreign-built optics or anything else that's made in a foreign land if you don't have a form on it, also. If you encounter a real jerk upon entry, he will.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
If you bring a firearm into RSA on a temporary import permit and then leave without it, you'll be breaking the law in a big way and will be 'flagged up' on the computer if you return again. They'll also go to the place you hunted to ask what happened to your firearm...... I wouldn't recommend it.

I certainly wish that it would really happen: The SAPS Firearms Licensing "Department" is notorious for constantly loosing applications, and having long delays. If the database programmers did their job properly the fact that a client returned to his own country without the firearm he brought in would show up if he returns. I agree with Steve that if you ever want to come back here with a firearm, don't just leave a firearm behind when you leave.

But will it show up when he leaves the country? IMHO all an American, or anyone else, needs to leave the country without a firearm is a return fligt ticket and passport. None of tese two mention him having brought in a firearm on entry into South Africa. So you probably can just leave the country without your firearm, but it will be illegal! And if you dare come back and want to import a firearm again, it SHOULD show up when your application is entered into the database, but will it? What will happen if it does? Maybe the SAPS officer on duty will think he/she entered something wrong and let it ride! But you could also be in some serious trouble - the type that will require your embassy to come and bail you out!

Anyone volunteer to do this test?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

If you take the rifle out of the USA and while in Africa it falls from your hands into some croc and

hippo pool while you are in a boat, and you report that incident to the local authorities, would that

be the end of the matter?

Andrew,

The local applications are all done on paper and only entered into the computer just before issuing the permit (hence all the lost applications etc) but the international temporary import permits and temporary export/reimport permits for locals are computerised right from the start or soon thereafter. - As you say, I'm sure the guy would get away with leaving the country without the firearm, but equally sure that unless he changed his passport number and address in the interim, the computer would flag him up on his return. If his permit was pre-issued, they'd have prior notice and be waiting for him.

Jack,

I've only heard of one or two examples of that happening and if I remember correctly, the guy concerned had to file a police report and swear a statement to that effect.

OR


The said recepient of the firearm can obtain a import permit from SAPS, South African Police Service, do a clearance with SA Customs, pays a duty on the declared value ( a reasonable amount)

As I worked for Customs for 17 years, a lot of guys thought they could declare the guns as nothing, thye did not expect a Gun nut for a Customs Officer.

And legally apply for a license for the rifle with proof of import permit as issued and Customs Bill of Entry, then it is a legal process on the SOUTH AFRICAN side, HOWEVER

On the US side it would be a Federal prosecution ifso discovered, but in all my years I know of only one person that was prosecuted for that in the USA, and I caught the sucker with a @#@#$ load of stuff coming into SA and leaving it behind, check the name MAHLER in US , I think it was in Georgia, about 12 years ago, he got sent away for 3-5 years

So if you have a Customs 4457, and 1-4 firearms on it, and you leave only 1 behind, when US Customs stops yu ans say where is te gun ? YO ARE IN SHIT

When you declare only 1-4 and leave all the guns on the 4457, they have no record of it, and South Africa, if the legal process was completed on this side, has no reason too inform USA about it.

So Make your choices ?

EDITED on 2/19/2009 to correct contact person.

The agency you will be dealing with in the USA is The U.S. Department of State, Bureau of Political-Military Affairs, Office of Regional Security and Arms Transfers.

Main switch board - (202) 647-4000


Person you will be dealing with is Paula Harris, 202-663-2816, harrispj@state.gov.


Good luck trying to get her to answer her phone. I have been calling for three weeks now and she does not answer. The switch board will tell you that she is in her office and will transfer your call but she will not pick it up. It goes to voice mail.

The website for the State Department is http://www.state.gov/t/pm/rsat/index.htm


If you have any success at all in dealing with this agency please send me a PM and let me know how you did it.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Not only should you hold a 4457 for your firearm(s), the boys in blue can take your Rolex, your Sony camera, your foreign-built optics or anything else that's made in a foreign land if you don't have a form on it, also. If you encounter a real jerk upon entry, he will.

+1
Right you are Jetdrvr!

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread but what happens if at the conclusion of your hunt, you wish to continue with a tour of RSA with an overnight sidetrip to Victoria Falls and for the duration have securely stored your firearm with your PH or ? Do they allow short exits and return while your firearm is still in RSA? Do they have anyway to track this (ie. computer/passport stamp)?

You're not supposed to leave RSA without your firearm and your PH or even a gunshop isn't permitted to store it for you either.

Legally, you'd need to take the rifle out of the country with you.

It really isn't a good idea to discuss ways of breaking the law on a public forum and I'd strongly advise everyone to not even consider doing so.

Added.

Bear in mind that every time something like this is discussed, it might just make it more likely hunters will find it more difficult to travel with their firearms and every time it happens and the culprit is caught and punished for his stupidity, it will also reflect badly on all travelling hunters and that in turn will probably mean more legislation to prevent travel with firearms.

Harvey,

As Steve advised don't even consider circumventing any African gun laws. Air 2000 told me they could hold your guns if touring. If you wanted to do this it would be worth checking with them.

Mark

Mark,

FWIW, I was told the other day by my local gunshop that the storage laws have now changed and gunsdhops/couriers etc are no longer allowed to accept firearms for storage.

Apparently, if you want to store a firearm, you need to leave it in a SAPS armoury. The only other way to do it is to leave the firearm with a gunsmith for repair.

The person who might be able to shed more light on this is Aubs because he also runs a very good firearms courier/meet and greet service.

Steve,

I agree that all should be checked out for the latest regs before making any hard and fast plan.

Mark

A) I have never had a US customs officer want to know where the "other guns" on my 4457 are. NEVER.

B) I can't imagine a foreign country (particularly in the third world) checking every arriving or departing passengers passport for evidence that they may have imported a firearm at some previous point...perhaps years in the past?!?! Hell, most of these records are still on paper for Christ's sake.

C) I DEFINITELY can't imagine the US taking RSAs or ZIMs word that a traveler departed without their gun and therefore illegally exported it. Granted, if one made a habit of it, I can see an investigation gaining speed but otherwise I doubt it VERY seriously.

D) No offense, but most places in RSA or Zim or Africa in general for that matter probably recognize the exponentially greater likelihood of a screw up in their own record system relative to the likelihood of someone illegally importing this or that. I'll bet an offended look, an obvious annoyed huff at being delayed, and $20 ends pretty much any of these discussions in the developing world.

Would I advocate breaking the law....No.
Do I think 99.99% of this that happens is NEVER even noticed? Yup.
Am I relatively confident that that .01% goes to jail? No way...maybe only .001

Worth it? Nope.

quote:

Would I advocate breaking the law....No.

EXACTLY. Whether we like it or not, flying with firearms is a privilege and not a right. Follow the rules, and don't screw it up for everybody else.

The short answer is that if any US citizen leaves a rifle behind in any foreign country without having followed the correct export permitting process, he will have committed a felony under US law.

The best advice to give anyone contemplating such an act is: DON'T DO IT.

Don't do it.

Not to put to fine a point on it but it may be multiple felonies:

1) Not registering with Directorate of Defense Trade Controls
2) Export Without a license

Additional felonies if the rife has a scope, or if you brought a shotgun, which are controlled under the Export Administration Regulations via the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA).

And don't forget the additional charges that always get added on.

*Money Laundering: if you received payment for the rifle

*Conspiracy: if you did this with an associate


Arms Export Control Act

Criminal violations; punishment
Any person who willfully violates any provision of this section or section 2779 of this title, or any rule or regulation issued under either section, or who willfully, in a registration or license application or required report, makes any untrue statement of a material fact or omits to state a material fact required to be stated therein or necessary to make the statements therein not misleading, shall upon conviction be fined for each violation not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

IEEPA
Whoever willfully violates, or willfully attempts to violate, any license, order, or regulation issued under this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $50,000, or, if a natural person, may be imprisoned for not more than ten years, or both; and any officer, director, or agent of any corporation who knowingly participates in such violation may be punished by a like fine, imprisonment, or both.

Steve, Mark and others - just to clarify, I'm was not suggesting trying something illegal or with a legal loophole but was just wondering if there was a LEGAL way to do this. As much as I'd like to take my own gun it seems my only option will be to use a "borrower" because I really want to do the 18 day tourist tour that my wife and I have planned as well on the one plane ticket.

One way around the problem would be to hire your PH as a tour guide for the tourist tour either before or after the hunt and claim the tourist tour as part of the safari.

I have done that twice.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Mark,

FWIW, I was told the other day by my local gunshop that the storage laws have now changed and gunsdhops/couriers etc are no longer allowed to accept firearms for storage.

Apparently, if you want to store a firearm, you need to leave it in a SAPS armoury. The only other way to do it is to leave the firearm with a gunsmith for repair.

Having the trigger 'adjusted' at a local reputable smith seems to be the ticket for touring neighboring countries after your safari.

Tendrams,

The South African system is computerised and your application is linked to your passport number, name and address. Even in Africa the culprit can and probably would be caught and if he (or she) were caught, what kind of punishment do you think they could they expect in this post 9/11 society for illegal international firearms trading? - Personally, I'd say they deserve all they get.

Also bear in mind that even plotting such a thing is a crime.

Harvey,

The easy answer is to either have your post hunt photo safari in the the same country as you hunt or if you must visit another country, take the firearm with you.

Atticus

Am I correctly reading your post to say that the export of scopes are controlled in the same way that firearms are? I figured that it wouldn't be kosher to leave a rifle behind in this day and age, but I never thought that giving a scope to your PH would be similarly illegal. I'm I interpreting your post correctly?

TerryR

quote:

Originally posted by harvey stern:
Steve, Mark and others - just to clarify, I'm was not suggesting trying something illegal or with a legal loophole but was just wondering if there was a LEGAL way to do this. As much as I'd like to take my own gun it seems my only option will be to use a "borrower" because I really want to do the 18 day tourist tour that my wife and I have planned as well on the one plane ticket.

Harvey, I know you weren't and I apologize if it appeared as though my second post was directed to you, which it was not. You are asking a good question, and that is what this forum is all about. Keep'um coming! Regards, Bill

Terry,
Rifle scopes are controlled under the Export Administration Regulations which are administered and enforced by the Commerce Department; along with shotguns and shotgun ammunition (and many other dual use commodities). As for license requirements for Export, it would depend on the county. But for Zim, Zambia, RSA, Namibia and Moz an Export License is required. Amazingly, based on a treaty called the Firearms Convention signed in 1998, Shotguns and Scopes even need a license for export to Canada.

Cabela's, Bass Pro shops, Sportsman's guide and others, have run into problems with these regulations and received fines upwards of $500k.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Not only should you hold a 4457 for your firearm(s), the boys in blue can take your Rolex, your Sony camera, your foreign-built optics or anything else that's made in a foreign land if you don't have a form on it, also. If you encounter a real jerk upon entry, he will.

+1
Right you are Jetdrvr!

Just as an aside to the central point of the topic, receipts will work just as well as the 4457 to establish the fact you purchased the item in the US, and aren't trying to import something you bought abroad.

If it's got a serial no. on it, carry the original receipt with you or register it with customs before you go.

The purpose of the 4457 is to provide evidence that you possessed an item before you left the country, and therefore don't owe duty on it when you bring it back in. There are other ways of establishing that fact. And customs is only going to be concerned with items that are expensive enough to require duty to be paid. Generally, items that are expensive enough to attract their attention also rate a serial no. from the manufacturer.

They're not going to confiscate your $10 Casio watch or strip out of the cheap clothes with the made-in-Bangladesh label you've got on your back because you didn't bother to register them. But if you've got a $6000 Rolex, then, yeah, they're going to want to tax it if you can't prove you already owned it before you left.