quote:

Originally posted by maki:
They went extinct for a reason folks. They aren't coming back as wild animals. They ran out of habitat a long, long time ago. If Alaska and the Yukon had good mamoth habitat, there would have been mamoths there in historical times. That means canned shooting only and I'll be the first to sign up!

Dean

There is one theory that they went extinct due to a concentration during glacial times that allowed them to be over harveste by early man.

465H&H

You got to remember...they are not going to be cloned as an adult. How many years is going to take a baby mammoth to become a mature trophy?

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
Matt,

maybe they can clone a really nice sheep for you one you would shear with your friends

Sorry you have me confused with a New Zilander.... Aussies always share their sheep!!!

I seem to remember before I switched my major from Paleontology we talked about this it was estimated they reached sexual maturity between the ages of 10-12.5 years old

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:


There is one theory that they went extinct due to a concentration during glacial times that allowed them to be over harveste by early man.

465H&H

What I dont get is if they were killed by over-hunting why are all those mammoths lying around apparently untouched?? If man killed them wouldnt they have et them??

Some may of been wounded and lost and forgotten in time while others might of died on their own you never know

quote:

Originally posted by Alan Bunn:

Tokyo - Japanese researchers will launch a project this year to resurrect the long-extinct mammoth by using cloning technology to bring the ancient pachyderm back to life in around five years time.

The researchers will try to revive the species by obtaining tissue this year from the carcass of a mammoth preserved in a Russian research laboratory , the Yomiuri Shimbun reported.

It makes me wonder why the Russians aren't doing it themselves?

The Japs are in a class of their own when it comes to matters like this

The primary proponent of the theory that overhunting by humans was the reason the mammoths and other prehistoric creatures became extinct was a University of Arizona paleontologist named Paul Martin. His theory was disproved by many of his peers, but it obviously still persists.

I still wonder what happened to the South African project to bring back the quagga.

Bill Quimby

http://www.quaggaproject.org/quagga-whatsnew.htm
Its so far been a success

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by maki:
They went extinct for a reason folks. They aren't coming back as wild animals. They ran out of habitat a long, long time ago. If Alaska and the Yukon had good mamoth habitat, there would have been mamoths there in historical times. That means canned shooting only and I'll be the first to sign up!

Dean

There is one theory that they went extinct due to a concentration during glacial times that allowed them to be over harveste by early man.

465H&H

IIRC a similar mechanism was used to explain the disappearance of some mammoth populations in the continental US. As glaciers retreated and temperatures rose, the mammoths moved up into the mountains to find the right habitat. I believe that there was some debate as to whether the isolated mountain mammoth populations were sustainable even without human hunting. I seem to recall that the last known mammoths died out out around the time the pyramids were being built. They were a dwarf population on a few Arctic islands. Are there enough varieties of mammoth, with plains, mountain and dwarf to make a "Mammoth Slam"?

Dean

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
Some may of been wounded and lost and forgotten in time while others might of died on their own you never know

Same old story eh.... not enough gun!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

Originally posted by Nemo .450:

But as for "millions of years ago"... sounds nice, and it is government funded, but that is nothing but H-O-G-W-A-S-H = hogwash. The earth ain't more than 10,000 years (at most) old itself.

You need to pay more attention in highschool my friend but what more can be expected from a 17 year old

"....the earth is no more than 10000 years old".

I never cease to be staggered by the ignorance displayed by some folks.

How is it possible to lead such a sheltered and ill informed life?

Anyway, I must be off now, I have an important meeting with the Tooth Fairy.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
The Japs are in a class of their own when it comes to matters like this

To transfer the nucleus...it take "micromanipulator"...a person trained in micromanipulation of things with very small instruments...via an operating microscope.

Kinda like watching a 90+ mph fast-ball coming down the pipe and having eyes capable of watching it the whole way.

Something like 1 in 10,000 even capable of above.

For somereason...almost all people who have the ability to micromanipulate are Japanese.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
The primary proponent of the theory that overhunting by humans was the reason the mammoths and other prehistoric creatures became extinct was a University of Arizona paleontologist named Paul Martin. His theory was disproved by many of his peers, but it obviously still persists.

I still wonder what happened to the South African project to bring back the quagga.
but it obviously still persists.
Bill Quimby

It is still written in history books that the "buffalo hunters" killed "all" of the American Bison...truth is...it was tuberculosis and brucellosis introduced by European cattle.

Also they fail to even mention , the Japanese invaded the Aleutian islands anymore

Now I really need a big bore double!

That didn't take long.......

quote:

Bill Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.
_________________________

"Mammoth and Mammoth Guns", $70 postpaid; "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $65 postpaid; "Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $55 postpaid: Check to Bill Stewart, P.O. Box 104, Spring Hill, Kansas 66083 USA

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

Originally posted by Nemo .450:

But as for "millions of years ago"... sounds nice, and it is government funded, but that is nothing but H-O-G-W-A-S-H = hogwash. The earth ain't more than 10,000 years (at most) old itself.

You need to pay more attention in highschool my friend but what more can be expected from a 17 year old

"....the earth is no more than 10000 years old".

I never cease to be staggered by the ignorance displayed by some folks.

How is it possible to lead such a sheltered and ill informed life?

Anyway, I must be off now, I have an important meeting with the Tooth Fairy.

goes to show you that there is a lot of truth to the old statement about closing one's mouth and being thought a fool or opening one's mouth and removing all doubt. me thinks Nemo has opened his mouth(keyboard??)

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

Originally posted by Nemo .450:

But as for "millions of years ago"... sounds nice, and it is government funded, but that is nothing but H-O-G-W-A-S-H = hogwash. The earth ain't more than 10,000 years (at most) old itself.

You need to pay more attention in highschool my friend but what more can be expected from a 17 year old

"....the earth is no more than 10000 years old".

I never cease to be staggered by the ignorance displayed by some folks.

How is it possible to lead such a sheltered and ill informed life?

Anyway, I must be off now, I have an important meeting with the Tooth Fairy.

goes to show you that there is a lot of truth to the old statement about closing one's mouth and being thought a fool or opening one's mouth and removing all doubt. me thinks Nemo has opened his mouth(keyboard??)

------------------------------------------------


I am not going to argue with those who will not be convinced, or who have something against me personally.

But I would like to address something… A sheltered life? Let me see… How would any one of you possibly know what my life experiences have been? I have traveled in 10 different countries in Europe, as well as Russia. I am apprenticed under several masters in their own art. “Sheltered” is definitely not an adjective which accurately describes my life.



The Bible says "...There shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts." II Peter 3:3,

"For they are willingly ignorant..." II Peter 3:5.


In short, alot of people want to believe in evolution because they don't want GOD telling them what to do.



For those who choose to attack me personally or my education (I didn’t attend public school), I will only say this: He who slings mud, loses ground.


There is no law against ignorance or malice, so y’all may insult me at your pleasure.

Oh Lord, we are in trouble now.and yes, it is obvious you didn't attend public schools.

Yep your correct earth is 10,000 years old Santa Claus is real and little green men pick up hillbilly's in cornfields .

Curious what a Mammoth feasted upon in its environment. I have been up on the tundra a few times. It does not seem like enough food to nourish such an animal; perhaps alders??. They may have actually been pretty rare to begin with. Never witnessed herbivores munching on evergreens but I suppose nature adapts.

Well from the stomachs to the mammoths frozen whole the stomach contents include Willow,fir,and alder leaves and assorted leaves from bushes.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Oh Lord, we are in trouble now.and yes, it is obvious you didn't attend public schools.

Careful, you may be smitten with a large dollop of mammoth turd, I have been told that some gods work in mysterious ways.

That damn cold weather in the north must let up now. It is more than apparent that there too many people with too little to do all cooped up indoors.

quote:

The Bible says "...There shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts." II Peter 3:3,

"For they are willingly ignorant..." II Peter 3:5.

As a follower of scripture myself sir...on those quotes...the phone-line rings both ways.

Have you ever heard the joke about the man in the flood???

A man in a flood was sitting on the roof of his house as the flood water was rising.

His neighbor came by in his bass boat and said jump in and lets get the heck out of here. The man on the roof said: Nope...I am putting my faith in the Lord and declined to leave.

The county sheriff came by next in his boat and said come on Mr. the wat er is still rising! The man on the roof said: Nope...I am putting my faith in the Lord and declined to leave.

The sheriff knowing the man was out there told the helicopter team that when they finished looking everywhere else to swing by that fellows house and pick him up as he would surely drown and he would realize that he had to leave by then. The helicopter went by the man's house. The water was up to the peak and still rising. They hollered hang on feller we'll drop a rope ladder! The man on the roof hollered back up: Nope...I'll put my faith in the lord and declined the offer.

The man on the roof drowned.

When he passed through the Pearly Gates...he asked God...Why did you let me drown? I have always been faithful and put all my trust in You.

God said: I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter...how much more could you ask for?

The first hunts will probably be in Texass, along with the Kudu, Cape/Houston Buffalo, etc.

Nemo- I can give a very good argument for why the earth is between 7500-8000 years old but I am sure you probably know the facts and I am equally sure that your detractors don't want to hear them. Just know that not all of us think you are crazy.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Nemo- I can give a very good argument for why the earth is between 7500-8000 years old but I am sure you probably know the facts and I am equally sure that your detractors don't want to hear them. Just know that not all of us think you are crazy.

I'll be your Huckleberry...albeit a Bible reading Christian.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Nemo- I can give a very good argument for why the earth is between 7500-8000 years old but I am sure you probably know the facts and I am equally sure that your detractors don't want to hear them. Just know that not all of us think you are crazy.

Thank you for your words of encouragement.


I absolutly agree with your statement concerning the age of the earth. Personaly, I believe that the earth is only about 7,000 years old.

As you say my there is little utility trying to lay out the facts to people who don't want to hear.


Thanks,

Nemo.

Id like to hear this as well.Being the oldest humanoid remains are 4.4 million years old and if you want to refer to bible days look at all the history of records almost every from the dawn of recorded time ie Egyptians had a savior born to a virgin mother december 25th died by crucifixion

quote:

As you say my there is little utility trying to lay out the facts to people who don't want to hear.

As stated...I am all ears!

If you believe the earth is 7500-8000 years old would either of you gentlemen be interested in properity in Arizona soon to be beach front ... ..Also I hope you are not going to refer to Dr. Gentry and his crack pot theories

If you guys don't want to clutter the list...please PM me...as I said...I am all ears.

Ok-I will bite!

#1- Dating of any carbon based material is essentially impossible.Humanoid (and all other animal and vegetable remains) fit in this category. A living mollusk when tested using carbon 14 dating was reported to be 10 million years old.
All fossil dating is based upon what layer in the geographic column where something is found.The age of the collumns are determined by the fosssils found in them. This is circular reasoning.It require an assumption that evolution had to occur, and it had to take billions of years to do so. So then you must assume that the most primitive specimens are the oldest. Mary Leakey claimed her bone fragment (named Lucy) was several million years old because the strata in which it was found was from that geological era. Good thing she did not find a Chevy Nova buried in the same strata.

#2-We are asked to assume that evolution is the answer to how we came to exist. For evolution to occur it would require that life somehow developed spontaneously. One of the first scientific laws I was taught was the law of Biogenesis that states that life cannot be spontaneously generated.Life only comes from living organisms. To accept evolution one has to ignore this most basic of biological tenets.

Another real delemma for the evolutionist are the Laws of Thermodynamics. I believe it is the second one that states that,"left unto it self, all elements go from order and complexity to less organized and simpler forms.Evolution requires this train run down the track backwards.

Evolutionist have no answer for why these accepted scientific laws run counter to their theory. They simply state that you have to accept by faith that this somehow occurred. I say if a faith option is a must ,I will choose a different option.

#3-When the lunar lander was designed by NASA they gave it huge foot pads that were designed to cushion the lander as it sat down on the moon's surface. They had expected many feet of dust on the lunar surface due to the accumulation of particles on the surface, the amount of debris in deep space, the gravity of the moon, and the lack of atmosphere.All their calculations, combined with their assumption that the moon was many millions of years old guarranteed many feet of dust accumulated on the surface.
Upon landing ,they found only a few inches of dust accumulation.Using their own calculations , and solving for age, they determined that the age of the moon was 7500-8000 years old.

There is simply no reason to believe the earth is millions of years old except that for evolution to occur it would take many millions of years. The only other option is creation. If one cannot except creation as an option, then a very old earth is the only option.Just more circular reasoning.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

As you say my there is little utility trying to lay out the facts to people who don't want to hear.

As stated...I am all ears!

------------------------------------------------

Ok, just remember, y’all asked for it...



I don't mean to start "stuffing" up this thread by getting slightly off topic. Nonetheless, I would like to be allowed to clarify a few things... The evolution theory is just that - a THEORY, to wit, "a proposition that has yet to be proven".

I choose to believe the Biblical account of world history, as I find overwhelming evidence for the Biblical account of creation and the flood.

I find no VIABLE evidence for the evolution theory… faulty (at best) dating methods-(radiometric dating, rubidium/strontium dating, potassium/argon dating, etc.), "evidence" proven wrong years ago-(ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, and the so called "cave-men", among a host of others), not to mention the “geologic column” which is just plain-old circular reasoning using “scientific” jargon (using the rocks to date the fossils, and the fossils to date the rocks). There is a plethora of other problems for the evolution theory, including, but not limited to: the inverse square law – in reference to the gravitational pull of the earth on the moon; and the second law of thermodynamics – which evolution violates. I will not list any more problems with the evolution theory at present, because I don’t have the time. If you would like some more details, PM me.

In point of fact, creation and evolution theory are both religious by nature; you must have FAITH to BELEIVE one or the other.




Ok…

If you do the math, the dates in the Bible add up to not less 6,000 years (age of the earth), and not more than 10,000 years at most. God made the world and everything in it in 6 literal days.

About 4,400 years ago, GOD judged man’s sin with a world wide flood, which accounts for all the fossils and the coal and oil beds. GOD told Noah (and his 4 sons and their families) to build a big boat (aka the Ark) which they did. God then told Noah with his family and 2 of each KIND (not species) of animal to get in the Ark. God then caused a global flood which drowned all the people who did not listen to Noah’s warning to turn from their sin, turn to GOD and get in the Ark. During the flood all the people and critters that weren’t in the Ark died.



According to evolution: 20 billion years ago (this number is forever growing), “big bang”, then everything turned into a big ball of molten lava; 4.6 billion years ago the earth “cooled down”; then it rained on the rock for millions and millions of years; turned the rock into a “pre-biotic soup” and the “soup” came alive. Then somehow, this soup turned onto a macromolecule. Then our little macromolecule found somebody to marry (pretty good trick) and something to eat, and a few short couple of millions of years later… Here we are!


The idea that life came from non-living material is scientifically impossible.


The evolution theory was not original to Darwin. The Bible mentions people who believed in evolutionary ideas back then…“Saying to a stock, “Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth.” Jeremiah 2:27.



I could go into endless detail about creation vs. evolution theory, but this is the best I could do on short notice. Again, if you are genuinely interested in more details, send me a PM.



Now if you guys will pardon me, I have to go bring some wood in, and fill up the heater.



Nemo.

433,000,000 Mohammedans believe that the Koran was brought by an angel from heaven; 335,000,000 Hindus believe one of their gods, Siva, has six arms; 153,000,000 Buddhists believe they will be reincarnated; 904,000,000 Christians believe a god made the world in six days, Joshua stopped the sun by yelling at it, and Jesus was born of a virgin and nullified natural laws to perform miracles.

There is absolutely no scientific proof of any of these claims. Science has shown them to be contrary to all known facts. It is more intelligent to classify them as false. Religions are all based upon the primitive superstitions of ignorant, stone-age men who had no knowledge of science and thought the world was flat. The Catholic Church imprisoned Galileo for life and burned Bruno at the stake because they disagreed with these superstitious beliefs.

These primitive beliefs have been kept alive by a vast army of priests, preachers, and rabbis because it is to their great profit to promote them, first, by imposing them on the helpless brains of children, and second, by saturating the air, TV, press, and schools with their childish superstitions and unreasonable claims. They fool the ignorant and make the gullible and the intelligent alike pay tribute to them. Their multi-billion-dollar properties and incomes are exempt from taxes; they get half-fare on trains, busses, and planes; and receive billions of dollars in grants of taxpayers' money to help build up their political power, wealth, and luxurious living. Taxes could be cut 10 percent if churches paid their just share. That would mean a probable saving of 20 billion dollars a year to the people of the U.S. every year of their lives. Some priests also indoctrinated with superstition from childhood probably believe what they preach. It pays them handsomely to do so.

Religious beliefs are against common sense. There is no god, just because priests say so. There are no angels, devils, heavens, hells, ghosts, witches, nor miracles. These superstitious beliefs are promoted for the purpose of making the gullible believe that by paying money to the priest-class, they will be favored by one of the gods. There is nothing supernatural -- nothing contrary to natural law.

Religion has caused untold ignorance, murder, torture, fear, poverty, unhappiness, wars, and has kept the world 10,000 years behind the times. It still does, while the millions support the priestly loafers in comfort and ease. For ages the independent thinkers have been murdered, ostracized, tortured, and suppressed and their writings destroyed. Only in recent years have a few courageous thinkers been free to criticize religions.

Great thinkers and scientists -- Voltaire, Thomas Paine, Charles Bradlaugh, Luther Burbank, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison, Charles Darwin, Albert Einstein, Henry L. Mencken, Charles Smith, Joseph Lewis, Rupert Hughes, Bertrand Russell, H.G. Wells, Mark Twain, Herbert Spencer, Thomas Huxley, Clarence Darrow, Chapman Cohen, George McDonald, George Bernard Shaw, and hundreds of others -- have discarded all or most of the religious beliefs.

This will be shocking to the unfortunate victim brain-whipped by religious indoctrination from childhood. But those who have a spark of intelligence will examine the facts, will stop paying tribute to the religious profiteers, and lose their fear of a mythical god and mythical hell.

If the gods which foolish people pray to were decent beings they would not permit innocent children to die of cancer, be blind, suffer from polio, muscular dystrophy, syphilis. A good god would not have manufactured fleas, bedbugs, chiggers, lice, rattlesnakes, sharks, deadly germs, sickness, diseased brains, idiots, and insanity. All these things are the result of blind, natural evolution. A just god would not cause some innocent people to die or be disabled for life in airplane, train, and ship disasters while others survived.

quote:

#2-We are asked to assume that evolution is the answer to how we came to exist. For evolution to occur it would require that life somehow developed spontaneously. One of the first scientific laws I was taught was the law of Biogenesis that states that life cannot be spontaneously generated.Life only comes from living organisms. To accept evolution one has to ignore this most basic of biological tenets.

If you can answer the following question...I will argue further.

You wrote above: "For evolution to occur it would require that life somehow developed spontaneously."

Why must we believe that for evolution to occur...we must believe that life developed spontaneously???

I see NO correlation between the 2.